I'm sure this has been covered. If I wanted to operate O-22 switches via fixed voltage plug, how would I do so using a Z-1000 transformer ?
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Anyone have a clue ? I'm almost dead sure it can't be done, but I'm sure some of you must be operating O-22s with MTH transformers.
Dan,
I never used a Z-1000 for running my old 711/072 & 022 Lionel Switches, I used the inside channels of my old ZW.
PCRR/Dave
So then my question would be, how do I operate O-22 switches on fixed voltage while using a Z-1000 to run my trains ?
Disclaimer: I have no direct experience with the Z-1000 transformer.
From a quick check of the instructions it looks as though the power brick connects to the controller with a special cable. The other two connectors on the brick must be the 14 volt accessory power. In a perfect world the two "common" returns (one for the controller, one for accessory power) should be tied together inside the power unit. If so, all you need to do is to connect the output terminal of the accessory posts to the fixed voltage plug(s).
I'm hoping someone with personal experience of the Z-1000 will check in to confirm or deny, meantime I'm pretty sure this is a "good" answer.
Pete
I have 2 MTH Z-1000's and just checked the output voltages, I got the same voltage on both the accessory and variable commons to positive terminals, regardless which common I used I got the same voltage at each positive. I would say yes to using the Z-1000's accessory output hot to the 022 constant voltage plug as it seems to make no difference in voltage. FYI; I was using a digital volt meter.
I have not tried this with my Z-1000, so I am not 100% sure if it will work, have only tested output voltages with my multimeter and have not tried it under an electrical load.
Lee Fritz
I am fearful of doing the test. What you are saying makes sense, but I'm not sure I want to risk it. I might try reaching out to MTH. We'll see how that goes.
The Z-1000, and associated Z-Controller are a strange beast. If your intention is to run only the switches, and nothing else, from the z-1000 brick, it is as simple as making sure the brick is phased with whatever transformer you are using to power the track, then attaching a wire from the common of the other transformer to the common screw terminal on the Z-1000. The hot from the Z-1000 then goes to the power plug on the O22 switches. When this is done you can not use the Z-controller (powered from the same Z-1000) to power track. The reason for this is that the Z-Controller inverts the phase of the transformer to it's outputs. The black post on the controller connected to the common screw is a full output, 20VAC short. Because of the way the controller works, you can't 'phase' the output of the Z-controller with the accessory output of the brick.
I'm unsure which "common" follows as being correctly phased to other transformers with polarized outlet plugs.
In any case, I recommend using only one of the z-1000's two outputs at any time. They don't play well together, and could start a fire if you have a short between them, as there is no circuit protection across the two hots, Ex, from accessory hot to track common through the Z-Controller. At the very least you'll want to put a 8-10 amp fuse on the hot terminal. The built in breaker will trip in most shorts, but the fuse will keep you from setting your layout on fire if you accidentally have an accessory come in contact with the track.
JGL
Edit: for what it's worth, My brick measures 20.5VAC across the plug for the z-controller, and 14.5VAC across the accessory terminals. I expect these would drop slightly under load.
John, I think I understand but a wiring diagram would be so nice. If I get your explanation correctly, I can use two Z-1000s. One to power the track and another to power switch tracks via fixed voltage plug.
If that's correct, how do I phase the two Z-1000s ?
Dan, I can't recall if you are running conventional (transformer controls) or command (Full power to track and Legacy/DCS to control the trains).
The other question is do you already own the z-1000, or are you kicking around ideas. there are other options that may be better suited to your needs, but if you already have a z1k, it would be better to use it than to buy something else. so, what transformers/ controllers do you have already?
JGL
As of this point I am in the planning stages of my layout to be. I have a brand new Z-1000 transformer and an old KW. I would like to run the trains using the Z-1000, as I am wary of using the older transformer to do so on the newer electronically loaded locomotives. I'm not running Legacy, command control or anything similar, just some Railing locos and one or two older Lionel locomotives.
My last layout was back in the '80s. Then I simply ran older Lionel with the KW and knew exactly how to wire the fixed voltage plugs on my switch tracks. Things were simple back then.
I'm trying to avoid any mistakes that might cause damage to my equipment. Of course, if I decide to use the new Ross tinplate switch tracks, things may be different. I'm not sure yet, how they operate or get their power, and if they have the non-derailing feature as do the O-22s.
Ok, I think I've got the picture.
I'm assuming when you say you have the z1000 transformer, you mean you also have the z-controller that goes with it for throttle, whistle/bell etc.
Start by hooking up the Z-1k and controller to your track. this should be pretty straight forward. The 120V plug is polarized so it will only go one way. The cord from the Z1000 brick then plugs in to the Z-Controller, and only goes one way. Black post on the Z-Controller to the outside rail, Red post to the center rail, Done.
Next you want to phase the KW to match the polarity of the KW to your track. If you have an AC voltmeter, that will make things pretty easy, but if not, let me know and I'll give some other options. Plug the KW in to the 120V outlet, connect the U post of the KW to the Black post of the Z-Controller. Next, place the AC volt meter between the Z-Controller Red post, and the A post on the KW. Turn up the throttle on both transformers maybe half way. If the meter reads near zero your transformers are in phase, if you see a reading of something like 20+VAC, unplug the KW and turn the plug around, then plug it back in. the meter should now be near zero.
Once the transformers are in phase, leave the KW's U post connected to the Black post of the Z. I would use one of the KW's throttles for your switch fixed voltage so you can adjust it for best performance. Wire the A (or B) post up to the fixed input on the O22's. Turn the throttle up to a voltage where the switches work well and you should be good to go.
Ok, maybe not quite good to go... You should still add TVS diodes (around 50 cents each), Probably one at each track feed, and across the KW between A and U, and B and U. The Z-Controller has a TVS in it, but this is to protect the controller, not your trains. I would also add a 5 to 7 amp circuit breaker on at least the common of the KW. The breaker on the Z1000 is plenty good enough for that, as long as you are not using the accessory terminals on the Z1000.
JGL
Thanks John. I think we have penetration. Well, almost. Since I am an electronic dummy, I need to know which TVS diode to buy. I did a search for them and came up with way too many to be able to make an intelligent choice.
For the circuit breaker, the closest I can find to your suggestion of 5-7 AMP breakers is this at All Electronics
http://www.allelectronics.com/...rcuit-breaker/1.html
What about an in-line glass circuit breaker ?
The breaker you've linked appears to be just fine for the job. Glass fuses tend to be good in places where they are a last line of defense, or otherwise unlikely to blow, but they can get expensive pretty quick if used on the output of transformers as they are likely to blow any time anything derails. For a line only running the switch machines you might be ok with a fuse, but for a buck fifty, I'd go with the breaker.
On the TVS, the folks here on the forum seem to prefer the 1.5KE36CA. These cost 58 cents each from Digikey. http://www.digikey.com/product...%2F54GICT-ND/2407435
Digikey also has a large selection of suitable breakers starting at about $1.36 : http://www.digikey.com/product...-3BA/Q498-ND/1963953 for 5 amp, or http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/qualtek/QLB-073-00DNN-3BA/Q500-ND/1963955 for the 7 amp. I would recommend the 5 amp ones for your application. I would pick up some extras as well. It seems a bit redundant, but I would place a breaker on both the common, and on each hot from the KW, as it is possible to have a short between the A and B posts. These are probably not super great breakers, but will be good enough to protect your layout and transformers.
JGL
John, thank you. You have been most helpful. I'm going to bookmark it all so I won't loose it.
Dan,
The MTH Z-1000 provides about 5.5amps. You can connect the switch power feed to the 14v ACC screws on the brick (transformer) . They are marked + -.
I believe it is accepted practice to use only the hot to the switch and let the switch use the track common. That's ok.
Then connect the red (hot) and black from the controller posts to the track center and outside rails.
However, the switch coils will use up some amperage for the train supply from the controller outputs.
As long as you use track power from the controller and not directly from the barrel jack all will be ok.
I am not a fan of the breakers. They are thermal breakers and usually trip at about 200% of rating. 5 amp would be the highest I would use. It still may not kick fast enough.
The Z-1000 has a breaker in the controller for track power. use an in-line fuse for the ACC power to switches. The newer blade type are easier to source and can be had in low amperage values. Take note that the directions instruct one to unplug power from source for the Z-1000 to reset after it kicks.
Things are still simple. Just hook up the Z-1000. Leave the old stuff for decorations.
Just make a test loop on the floor with a couple of switches and test it.
Moonman, Everything you've said makes sense and is how one would expect things to work, It is exactly what I would say had I not stuck a meter on mine, or tore it apart to see what's inside it... but it is not how the Z1000 actually works. The Z1000, and associated Z-Controller, is a very strange transformer.
Moonman posted:Dan,
The MTH Z-1000 provides about 5.5amps. You can connect the switch power feed to the 14v ACC screws on the brick (transformer) . They are marked + -.
Yes, you could, if you are not using the other output of the brick connected to a Z-Controller.
I believe it is accepted practice to use only the hot to the switch and let the switch use the track common. That's ok.
It is fine, assuming your supplies are in phase... however it is impossible to put the output of the Accessory terminals in phase with the posts on the Z-controller. (without changing internal wiring)
Then connect the red (hot) and black from the controller posts to the track center and outside rails.
If you do this, the switches will not work. They are only going to see about 6 volts of power. See photo below.
However, the switch coils will use up some amperage for the train supply from the controller outputs.
As long as you use track power from the controller and not directly from the barrel jack all will be ok.
Actually the opposite of this is true. If you were to run the track for a command control environment directly from the 20VAC output of the Z1000, that connection IS in phase with the 14V accessory output, and you would have no problems at all...(well except for possibly damaging Lionel product that recommends against 20 volts on the track.)
I am not a fan of the breakers. They are thermal breakers and usually trip at about 200% of rating. 5 amp would be the highest I would use. It still may not kick fast enough.
Yes, but it is better than the internal breaker on a post war KW. If you want really good protection, you probably want the PSX-AC but at $50 for that, a five amp breaker that trips around 10 amps for $1.50 is a better over all solution for most folks. Your breakers are there primarily to protect your transformers (keep them from catching on fire) and to protect your layout wiring. A good electronic breaker may also help protect wiring inside engines and cars, but only somewhat. Even the fantastic breakers in a PH180 are not fast enough to protect a direct short across internal components.
The Z-1000 has a breaker in the controller for track power. use an in-line fuse for the ACC power to switches. The newer blade type are easier to source and can be had in low amperage values. Take note that the directions instruct one to unplug power from source for the Z-1000 to reset after it kicks.
No, the Z-Controller does not have a breaker or fuse of any kind inside it. The only breaker is the one in the Z1000 brick. this is on the common side and connected to both the common of the accessory post, and the common on the barrel jack for the Z-Controller. The controller flips this around, do the breaker is on the red post side of the circuit after the controller. In effect, track common (outside rail) is unfused with Accessory hot, so if you used the method suggested above to power the switches, not only would they not have enough power, but they would also have absolutely no circuit protection.
Things are still simple. Just hook up the Z-1000. Leave the old stuff for decorations.
As a note, if you used a 6 amp breaker on the U post output of the KW, it is providing exactly the same output as a Z1000, and is exactly as safe. If you then placed a breaker on the A and B post outputs as well it is actually much safer than the Z1000. A transformer is an amazingly simple device with very little that can go wrong with it. I would recommend checking that all the internal wiring is in good shape before using a post war transformer, but once you have it in good shape there is nothing that makes another transformer any better. (added breakers assumed.)
Just make a test loop on the floor with a couple of switches and test it.
Here is what the switch would see connected to the hot of the accessory post, with common from the track:
Here is the Z controller common connected to the Accessory common with a volt meter:
And here is what you get... with the Accessory post common and the red post, as these are the same connection with the controller between. As you turn up the throttle, the voltage drops.
All in all I recommend against using both the accessory and Z-Controller outputs, as doing this safely is a big pain. Simply using a second transformer, since Dan already has one, is a better solution. If it were my set up, I would actually use the KW to run the trains and the Z1000 for the accessories, as I like the feel of the KW better and it would allow for two tracks, but I explained above based on the Idea that Dan preferred the Z-controller as a train throttle. The bell button is a nice feature, though you can get bell buttons for post-war transformers.
JGL
The plot thickens...
Do I have one that is wired wrong? Was a change made at some point in production?
I have to admit that the way my Z1000 and Z-controller work make no sense, but having only the one to test I assumed they would all be the same.
Edit: Also, I've taken mine apart and there does not appear to be anything that was fiddled with or changed after the unit was built.
JGL
Moonman posted:Dan,
The MTH Z-1000 provides about 5.5amps. You can connect the switch power feed to the 14v ACC screws on the brick (transformer) . They are marked + -.
I believe it is accepted practice to use only the hot to the switch and let the switch use the track common. That's ok.
Then connect the red (hot) and black from the controller posts to the track center and outside rails.
However, the switch coils will use up some amperage for the train supply from the controller outputs.
As long as you use track power from the controller and not directly from the barrel jack all will be ok.
I am not a fan of the breakers. They are thermal breakers and usually trip at about 200% of rating. 5 amp would be the highest I would use. It still may not kick fast enough.
The Z-1000 has a breaker in the controller for track power. use an in-line fuse for the ACC power to switches. The newer blade type are easier to source and can be had in low amperage values. Take note that the directions instruct one to unplug power from source for the Z-1000 to reset after it kicks.
Things are still simple. Just hook up the Z-1000. Leave the old stuff for decorations.
Just make a test loop on the floor with a couple of switches and test it.
Carl, if I understand you correctly, the positive accessory terminal on the Z-1000 brick gets connected to the fixed voltage plug on the switch track. If so, this would be the same way, in a sense, that using a KW for example, would be wired for fixed voltage to the turnouts.
Dan Padova posted:Moonman posted:Dan,
The MTH Z-1000 provides about 5.5amps. You can connect the switch power feed to the 14v ACC screws on the brick (transformer) . They are marked + -.
I believe it is accepted practice to use only the hot to the switch and let the switch use the track common. That's ok.
Then connect the red (hot) and black from the controller posts to the track center and outside rails.
However, the switch coils will use up some amperage for the train supply from the controller outputs.
As long as you use track power from the controller and not directly from the barrel jack all will be ok.
I am not a fan of the breakers. They are thermal breakers and usually trip at about 200% of rating. 5 amp would be the highest I would use. It still may not kick fast enough.
The Z-1000 has a breaker in the controller for track power. use an in-line fuse for the ACC power to switches. The newer blade type are easier to source and can be had in low amperage values. Take note that the directions instruct one to unplug power from source for the Z-1000 to reset after it kicks.
Things are still simple. Just hook up the Z-1000. Leave the old stuff for decorations.
Just make a test loop on the floor with a couple of switches and test it.
Carl, if I understand you correctly, the positive accessory terminal on the Z-1000 brick gets connected to the fixed voltage plug on the switch track. If so, this would be the same way, in a sense, that using a KW for example, would be wired for fixed voltage to the turnouts.
Dan,
The Z-1000 is a strange beast without the controller. It is my experience that the track outputs are reversed in the barrel connector, which gets "corrected" when plugged into the Z-controller or a TIU. I don't have any to put up now, they are 75 miles away at the Eagle Scout project at the InfoAge Science Museum. We have a brick with the connector cut-off, which was wired to a programming track originally. When I attempted to use to track power outputs, I discovered the reversal issue. I tossed it back in the parts box until I found this information. It's still there.
What PLCProf demonstrated is the expected result. Therefore, it is the same as using the KW for the ACC power for the switches.
Dan, again, throw together a test loop and try it.
JGL, was yours acquired new or pre-owned? Perhaps someone switched the connections in the barrel connector. I can't explain why MTH does this with these small bricks. I do know that folks assume they can cut the barrel connector off and use the center pin wire as a direct hot and they discover it's out of phase.
Side bar-We ended up using these Z-Controllers and bricks because they will power up with throttle on to the track, which we need for unattended operation by museum staff for conventional trains. We have a Z-4000. It will not apply power to track when the electric is switched on. One must leave the throttles at zero and then move the throttles. More MTH strangeness.
Morning Carl, your up early.
mike g. posted:Morning Carl, your up early.
You are up 3 hours earlier than me. I am usually an early starter. Been spending the days on projects away from the computer.
Ever since my Latest Chemo treatment started I only get about4 -5 hours of sleep. Dog wakes me up to go out then there is o no getting back to sleep. LOL
Finally got a chance to do some experimentation with an O22 switch and the Z-1000 transformer. I ran a wire from the common post on the Z-1000 brick to the fixed voltage stud on the O22 switch. It works very well. One critisism about the Z-1000 brick are the accessory screw terminals. They are too close together. Nothing like the good old thumb terminals on older transformers.
Just be aware that there is no overload protection for the right side(facing cord & screws) screw terminal on the Z-1000 brick if that's the one powering the 022s.
The common screw terminal is the left screw. If I understand you correctly, then there would be no overload protection on the Z-1000 accessory circuit if it is used as intended, i.e. both terminals connected to an accessory.
The breaker on the Z1000 is connected to the common side on both the 14V accessory terminals and the 20V barrel jack, so a short between either output's hot and common will trip the breaker. The unprotected route is between both hot connections. Shorting the hot of the barrel jack to the hot screw terminal will give you a 50amp+ short circuit with no breaker/fuse. If your brick is wired "correctly" this is a somewhat unlikely short. If yours is wired the same as the one I bought, however, it is much more likely, and becomes a problem. "correctly" wired or not, I recommend placing a 8-10 amp fuse between the hot accessory terminal and your load if you are also using the 20v output. This fuse should never blow, but in the event of an unlikely short between hots, it could keep you from a catastrophic failure.
JGL
Thanks John. I have read, on this forum, about some of the bricks being wired in reverse. Kind of doesn't make sense to me why they would have been wired that way, with the exception that some foreign countries do things in reverse of ours. So if the bricks in question were manufactured overseas, then I can see the possibility of it happening. It's about how much supervision MTH or any manufacturer has over the assembly system I suppose.
