Alan Hummel posted:I agree with what's been said here 100% and it's a sad situation especially since O got things started.
Just My Opinions.
Al Hummel
What exactly did O start??
O gauge manufacturers are producing this low end stuff because people are buying it!
Just look at MTH in the HO market - They upped their game. Their SD70ACe and Dash 9 models are right up there with Athearn Genesis or Proto 2000 Quality.
They know how to build nice stuff but are riding this wave to see how much they can get away with. My wallet is Safe!
PS - Every now and then a Nice O gauge Model slips through the cracks, MTH Dash 8 being one of them. But this is the problem with pre-ordering = You don't know what you're getting. I did not buy a Dash 8 until I saw the Actual model.
Also - These manufacturers need to do a better job of posting up Actual photos of models.
In the HO market, sample photos are posted and people give feedback and the Maker listens to that feedback.
I like this thread it's a good break from the modelling bench, building 12 inches of stairs with very limited space is a drama, well........ the jig for it was after that it's a piece of doddle..
It's good to see other opinions on O scale without anyone getting to carried way and I've seen it happen many times since the Internet started!
Al. Your a good bloke and your modelling is as good as anyone else's including mine, keep up the good work and thanks mate. 
Roo.
Good Day,
Just wondering, would the development costs of offering a GE Tier 4 ES44AC in O Scale vs HO be close? In my mind, the development cost are similar? am I missing something?
Regards,
Swafford
SPSF posted:PS - Every now and then a Nice O gauge Model slips through the cracks, MTH Dash 8 being one of them. But this is the problem with pre-ordering = You don't know what you're getting. I did not buy a Dash 8 until I saw the Actual model.
Also - These manufacturers need to do a better job of posting up Actual photos of models.
Boy truer words have never been spoken. I'm in complete agreement.
N&W Class J posted:SPSF posted:PS - Every now and then a Nice O gauge Model slips through the cracks, MTH Dash 8 being one of them. But this is the problem with pre-ordering = You don't know what you're getting. I did not buy a Dash 8 until I saw the Actual model.
Also - These manufacturers need to do a better job of posting up Actual photos of models.
Boy truer words have never been spoken. I'm in complete agreement.
Agreed..................................post actual pictures on models.
MTH, Lionel and Atlas still do not understand the power of Internet marketing!
Regards,
Swafford
SPSF posted:O gauge manufacturers are producing this low end stuff because people are buying it!
Just look at MTH in the HO market - They upped their game. Their SD70ACe and Dash 9 models are right up there with Athearn Genesis or Proto 2000 Quality.
They know how to build nice stuff but are riding this wave to see how much they can get away with. My wallet is Safe!
PS - Every now and then a Nice O gauge Model slips through the cracks, MTH Dash 8 being one of them. But this is the problem with pre-ordering = You don't know what you're getting. I did not buy a Dash 8 until I saw the Actual model.
Also - These manufacturers need to do a better job of posting up Actual photos of models.
In the HO market, sample photos are posted and people give feedback and the Maker listens to that feedback.
So far I have not seen a single MTH diesel I have wanted. So my money has always been safe from them.
Development costs are not trivial. If they were not much of a factor, you would see a lot more stuff being built/ imported. The problem is you have to include it in the price. If you can sell 20, the portion of development cost on each model will drive the price into the stratosphere. Not so if you can sell 2000.
................................post actual pictures on models.
That's been a complaint for many decades and not limited to any specific scale, and in the past even items of different scales and from manufacturers have been used in ad's to depict a new product. Doubt that I've even bought anything based solely on a photo of a proposed product.
As for the rest, O scale is dying comes up regularly now for decades and still seems to be alive; most of the hand-wringing and chicken little litanies seem to come from those that decry the lack of what they want being handed to them ready to be taken out of a box and run on track that came out of another box. The whine over costs has also been a regular component of O scale, too, despite that routinely being shown to not really be very much different that the effective costs of other scales - anyone price N scale recently?
I fortunately have all that I could every want, far more than I need, and am constantly helping some of it to depart for new homes. I have maybe 10 items collectively from MTH, Lionel and Atlas and that may be a generous estimate. Those 3 have succeeded in selling very little that I could possibly even be interested in looking at let alone even buying.......and it worries me not at all. 
I am one of those bozos that has absolutely NO interest in building ALL the stuff I want! That doesn't mean I don't have the talent to do so, just that I have ZERO interest in doing it.
With that in mind, around 20 years back when I first revived my interest in things railroad, I knew what I wanted, and it didn't take me long to figure out that new product was NOT being popped out overnight. Being an impatient sort, I decided I didn't want to wait around for something to be produced (and maybe NOT even liking it once it was), I decided to find out just what was already available.
My first purchase was a collection of the late "O Scale News 48/ft" and it didn't take long to figure out that most of what I wanted was in fact, already out there.
I started looking at train shows and in ads, and have never looked back.
There are all kinds of ways to enjoy this hobby. If you like to build things, hand lay track, whatever, go for it.
The thing I find LEAST productive, is to get on these forums and WHINE. That includes "I can't find this or that" or "why don't you build it"!
Simon....proudly opening boxes for 20 years
"We young-ins can't afford to get into this hobby because all of us 30 and 40 year olds are paying for the social security, medicare-caid, pensions etc... of the baby boomers. In essence, I'm subsidizing the O scale hobby because the boomers don't have to pay for all of the above mentioned entitlements - hence, they can afford to buy pieces of rolling stock for $80. "
If the above is any indication, no wonder you got some negativity previously. That's pretty offensive to those of us that have worked all our lives. I'm 65 and I'm still working at a job that's not easy on the body. I won't be able to seriously consider retirement until I'm over 66 years of age.
Don't know where you've been, but I've been paying into "the system" since I was 15 old years at the point I began to be paid by payroll check and not cash. As soon as check stubs were part of the pay routine, guess what? At that exact moment our greedy uncle (Sam) began to demand his share out of my income. It's been that way ever since. In other words, I've forked over and paid a lifetime to get what little I will be getting from retirement.
Pay your dues and quit 'cher whining.
OR, if you want to be disgruntled, then be disgruntled at the ones that are BLOWING our (yours and mine) federal withholdings: THE US GOVERNMENT.
My Uncle Sammy has asked a lot of me at times over the years, but I'm not complaining. I have no problem paying my share in blood, sweat, tears, and taxes for the privilege of living free in a caring society.
Now, back to trains. I think this is the best of times for our hobby!
Jeff C
Thank you Laming! Well said. I too have paid into my retirement pension and social security all of my working life and I have been very happy to do so. I put as much as I could into my retirement plans in hopes of a living income in retirement. I also had a physically demanding job that took it's toll on my health so my retirement is not what I was hoping for in that area. This is all certainly something folks our age have all earned and deserve to be getting.
Now as Jeff C says above, back to trains.
TrainGuyMcGee posted:We young-ins can't afford to get into this hobby because all of us 30 and 40 year olds are paying for the social security, medicare-caid, pensions etc... of the baby boomers. In essence, I'm subsidizing the O scale hobby because the boomers don't have to pay for all of the above mentioned entitlements - hence, they can afford to buy pieces of rolling stock for $80.
Gen X'ers unite! We demand our O gauge entitlements!
Ps.. I'm clearly bored.
"Fibber McGee" (Google that before you get too excited)
I paid into SS EVERY paycheck, for 42 years. I pay a monthly fee every month to Medicare, not to mention the cost of supplemental insurance. Last time I checked, You were NOT subsidizing my pension, which is all too small. I suggest you X'ers unite against those toadies in DC who make all the legislation, and have their own special perks, because those of the average citizen are not good enough.
Mean olde Simon
Simon Winter posted:TrainGuyMcGee posted:We young-ins can't afford to get into this hobby because all of us 30 and 40 year olds are paying for the social security, medicare-caid, pensions etc... of the baby boomers. In essence, I'm subsidizing the O scale hobby because the boomers don't have to pay for all of the above mentioned entitlements - hence, they can afford to buy pieces of rolling stock for $80.
Gen X'ers unite! We demand our O gauge entitlements!
Ps.. I'm clearly bored.
Simon. We are better off to ignore numptys like that. You're just giving them oxygen.
Anyway . . . it's "Clearly, I'm bored." See what you're dealing with?
Not even a basic grasp of sentence construction.
I must rise to the defense of a previous comment which stated that today's younger workers subsidize the O gauge hobby for "boomers". Technically, it's correct.
To maintain some accuracy here, nobody "pays" into social security because it's a pay as you go entitlement program. Today's retirees receive benefits that are fully paid by social security taxes taken from today's 30 and 40 year old workers. Topping it off, many boomers also receive generous pensions which are unheard of for today's workers. Therefore, it is quite reasonable to expect that today's boomers can afford those nice expensive boxcars.
When us younger guys retire, we won't have social security. We won't have the privilege to cash those SS checks as disposable income, and run to the LHS on a shopping spree at anyone's expense but our own.
GregR posted:So, it's quite reasonable to expect that today's boomers can afford those nice expensive boxcars. When us younger guys retire, we won't have social security, and the privilege to cash those SS checks as disposable income, and run to the LHS.
And you'll find those nice expensive boxcars at good prices when their estates hit the various meets every year, 
And, I'm not even eligible for SS......... So it goes.....
mwb posted:GregR posted:So, it's quite reasonable to expect that today's boomers can afford those nice expensive boxcars. When us younger guys retire, we won't have social security, and the privilege to cash those SS checks as disposable income, and run to the LHS.
And you'll find those nice expensive boxcars at good prices when their estates hit the various meets every year,
And, I'm not even eligible for SS......... So it goes.....
Estate sales... haha. How true
GregR posted:Estate sales... haha. How true
Don't forget yours will be coming up eventually too! 
PS: If you X'ers were smart you'd try and do something about SS and all that stuff by exercising your right to vote.
I doubt with the way we have to work these days to be able to afford to have extra income if half of us survive to retirement. I average 70+ hours a week every week with no real vacations. always tied to work via cell phone,emails etc. Expectations are always to do more with less. Stress is through the roof. health benefits suck compaired to when I entered the market 15 years ago and I am reaping the effects of those long weeks with diabetes, high blood pressure and family problems due to dad never being home or at school functions. Family gatherings, summer vacations etc. I de stress via trains in the evening after everyone is in bed. But even then if I get 15 hours a month I am lucky or sacrificing sleep/ other obligations to do so. I still put away for retirement...just incase...But I buy what I want now....also just incase....everything is expensive, that's just the world we live in. Us generation X people should be lobbying for manditory time off/shorter work weeks and better health care. Half the people I know work 2/3 jobs and no time off or benefits other than state provided just to keep their heads above water. I don't remember my parents doing that. Plus America is the king of part time jobs, 25 hours or less so I don't have to provide health care to my employees. Man that benifited us as a country didn't it? Work three jobs rather than one, makes perfect sense. Add that to needing a college degree for anything decent and the crippling debt to go along with it? Man oh man, what a world... But anyways, back to trains... Aren't they wonderful?
GregR posted:I must rise to the defense of a previous comment which stated that today's younger workers subsidize the O gauge hobby for "boomers". Technically, it's correct.
To maintain some accuracy here, nobody "pays" into social security because it's a pay as you go entitlement program. Today's retirees receive benefits that are fully paid by social security taxes taken from today's 30 and 40 year old workers. Topping it off, many boomers also receive generous pensions which are unheard of for today's workers. Therefore, it is quite reasonable to expect that today's boomers can afford those nice expensive boxcars.
When us younger guys retire, we won't have social security. We won't have the privilege to cash those SS checks as disposable income, and run to the LHS on a shopping spree at anyone's expense but our own.
And so using that same logic, I paid for those that retired ahead of me, and my parents paid for the retirements of those before them, so not anything new.
The problem is that Washington is spending tax-payers money faster than we can earn it and thus send it. Don't like the way Washington is spending OUR money? Then vote accordingly.
I too, am very tired of the ridiculous spending this government has been doing for YEARS. It is a shame that somewhere around 560 or so lawmakers SPEND the money that several hundred million US citizens worked so hard to send to them. WE (us taxpaying citizens) did not get the USA into this mess. It's the 560 or so lawmakers that have spent us into this condition.
As for "no Social Security" when those 30-40 year old retire. IF that is accurate, then it behooves one to start preparing for retirement with some form of investment portfolio as soon as possible.
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SANTIAGOP23 posted:
Hahahahahahaha! Awesome. Best post on here
Hey why not stop complaining and we show support for Sunset 3rd Rail SD 40's, the only manufacturer willing to offer prototypically detailed and ready to run plastic models. I'm sure if modern stuff proves feasible they will offer more and more modern engines. But without the numbers we really can't complain!
"I am one of those bozos that has absolutely NO interest in building ALL the stuff I want! That doesn't mean I don't have the talent to do so, just that I have ZERO interest in doing it."
Simon add me to the bozo list. I don't mind the effort of opening boxes in fact I love it! If you have a large family and baby sitting duties among other things, I can assure you it's impossible to build every single thing yourself and maintain an operating layout as well. You have to sleep sometimes. Roo.
I'm 41. I'm not buying much O scale because I don't have much room. When I was in n scale, I'd make random purchases all the time. The selection is big, there was always room for another n scale piece, and they were affordable.
Since switching to o scale, it's been very different. I've had to decide on a layout concept and then stick to it. There's no point in buying large steam engines when I have no room to run them and refuse to run tight 3 rail at this point. I'll never have a truly nice engine as I already regret paying $500 for a few engines. I'll never pay more. Due to the cost, I'll also most likely buy few if anymore engines. They don't make much of what I'm modeling anyways. I've chosen a switching layout based on the Iowa Interstate. 3 engines and about a dozen train cars is all I'll ever need. Over time I'll work on detailing them. I also prefer scratch building and hand laying so I generally don't contribute to manufacturer profits in any significant way.
Roo posted:Simon add me to the bozo list. I don't mind the effort of opening boxes in fact I love it! If you have a large family and baby sitting duties among other things, I can assure you it's impossible to build every single thing yourself and maintain an operating layout as well. You have to sleep sometimes. Roo.
Roo (Nev)
Considering all the great stuff you've built over the years, there is NO WAY you're on that list! I was just poking a bit of fun at our friends who are adamant supporters of "rolling one's own". There really is NO wrong way to enjoy this hobby! You and Max put some of us Yank's to shame!
Simon
You all know this a brand new never before discussed subject because this is all new changes in the history of our hobby!
1906 Lionel standard gauge
1915 Lionel O gauge
1927 Lionel acquired IVES and O-27 track
1929 William Walthers, a large seller of model railroads, asked Cowen in 1929 why Lionel painted its trains in bright and unrealistic colors. Cowen said that the majority of trains were purchased by mothers for their children, and the bright colors attracted women buyers.
1930 Lionel introduced a line of inexpensive electric toy trains under the Winner Toys or Winner Toy Corp. brand name, which were sold from 1930 to 1932.
1934 Lionel depression Mickey Mouse handcar $1.50
1939 last production of Lionel standard gauge
1953 Lionel became was the largest toy manufacturer in the world
See it never happened before! 
Russ
SANTIAGOP23 posted:Hey why not stop complaining and we show support for Sunset 3rd Rail SD 40's, the only manufacturer willing to offer prototypically detailed and ready to run plastic models. I'm sure if modern stuff proves feasible they will offer more and more modern engines. But without the numbers we really can't complain!
Now you're talking...
Even if we had all this new modern power in O Scale, where's the cars to go behind it? There's not enough modern era cars to build a decent train without duplicating road names and car numbers of the same thing.
I am one of those bozos..........
Is O scale/gauge going to die? I have no idea . . . and neither does anyone else! The people who just might have half a clue are in the headshop and accounting departments at Lionel and MTH.
As I see it, the real problem is that the market is so hopelessly divided and fractured into battling segments that feel something akin to actual enmity for each other. Much of the trouble, as I see it, stems from the need to accommodate "small l" legacy equipment.
Tinplate.
Pre vs post war.
Two rail vs 3 rail.
Conventional vs DCS vs Legacy.
Kadee vs "traditional" couplers.
Fantasy and novelty stock vs "real."
Most of us, myself included, have interest in our own particular segment and ONLY that segment!
Seems to me there is nothing like this in the other scales! It's already a small market overall and each niche is a still smaller piece of an already small pie.
I don't pretend to know the future . . . but it's clear O scale/gauge has always had this rather unique problem of a severely fractured market. One thing can not be denied . . . the Lionel, PW generation demographic is a dying breed . . . literally. As they slip away, there will be less segmentation of the market. Who knows how that might benefit, or hurt the industry.
mwb posted:I am one of those bozos..........
Hey Martin. I just heard there's a new "IT" coming in September. That should do a lot for the happy side of clowns.
BH
up148 posted:Hey Martin. I just heard there's a new "IT" coming in September. That should do a lot for the happy side of clowns.
I am sure that there will be celebrations in the streets........
Want a balloon?
Terry Danks posted:Is O scale/gauge going to die? I have no idea . . . and neither does anyone else! The people who just might have half a clue are in the headshop and accounting departments at Lionel and MTH.
As I see it, the real problem is that the market is so hopelessly divided and fractured into battling segments that feel something akin to actual enmity for each other. Much of the trouble, as I see it, stems from the need to accommodate "small l" legacy equipment.
Tinplate.
Pre vs post war.
Two rail vs 3 rail.
Conventional vs DCS vs Legacy.
Kadee vs "traditional" couplers.
Fantasy and novelty stock vs "real."
Most of us, myself included, have interest in our own particular segment and ONLY that segment!
Seems to me there is nothing like this in the other scales! It's already a small market overall and each niche is a still smaller piece of an already small pie.
I don't pretend to know the future . . . but it's clear O scale/gauge has always had this rather unique problem of a severely fractured market. One thing can not be denied . . . the Lionel, PW generation demographic is a dying breed . . . literally. As they slip away, there will be less segmentation of the market. Who knows how that might benefit, or hurt the industry.
G scale is the same. Maybe S scale is going that way as well? (couplers, wheels, etc.)
bob2 posted:I think I am lining up with Pete M above. I do not need, nor do I even want, perfect models. If I did need or want such things, I would own a Henry Bultmann 4-10-2, a bunch of Key PAs, and some Beaver Creek models. I am much happier burning my money up with Avgas, and building my own 4-10-2s.
Blaming the manufacturers or importers is not fair - they produce only what they can make a decent profit on. Obviously, high end stuff is not profitable for folks like Bultmann. Key seems to be doing ok, but note that Overland is not rushing to bring in more nearly perfect imports.
Blaming the purchasers is even further off the mark. We are not obliged to buy anything. We do not have to demand perfection, and should not be blamed for whatever commercial products are currently available.
And murtherfore, some of us are not interested in plastic, no matter how inexpensive and superior. Those Zephyr cars are gorgeous, but I shall keep my extruded cars.
Opinion.
Are you the Bob Turner that has published so many great articles on scratch building? If so, they are great and inspiring!
Rob
SANTIAGOP23 posted:Hey why not stop complaining and we show support for Sunset 3rd Rail SD 40's, the only manufacturer willing to offer prototypically detailed and ready to run plastic models. I'm sure if modern stuff proves feasible they will offer more and more modern engines. But without the numbers we really can't complain!
Sunset is fast proving to be the Kato of O scale. Let's hope the sales of modern equipment support them.
It would be nice to see Kadee HO quality RTR freight cars in O scale.
On the kit front, the (new) GPM GS gondola kit is wonderful and proves that O scale can strut it's stuff right up front when it comes to "state of the art' modeling.
Said it before and will say it again - until the fountain of youth is invented, Harley will sell big slow motorcycles to old geezers and modelers will step up to the heft and realism of O scale.
I am sure they are not worried. There are still plenty of people to spend too much for too many problems. There will always be someone to buy, not just in the numbers they want or expect.
Rule292 posted:SANTIAGOP23 posted:Hey why not stop complaining and we show support for Sunset 3rd Rail SD 40's, the only manufacturer willing to offer prototypically detailed and ready to run plastic models. I'm sure if modern stuff proves feasible they will offer more and more modern engines. But without the numbers we really can't complain!
Sunset is fast proving to be the Kato of O scale. Let's hope the sales of modern equipment support them.
It would be nice to see Kadee HO quality RTR freight cars in O scale.
On the kit front, the (new) GPM GS gondola kit is wonderful and proves that O scale can strut it's stuff right up front when it comes to "state of the art' modeling.
Said it before and will say it again - until the fountain of youth is invented, Harley will sell big slow motorcycles to old geezers and modelers will step up to the heft and realism of O scale.
Sunset definitely is not the Kato of O Scale. I have several Sunset pieces and every one of them has problems. As others have pointed out here on the Forum like misplaced details on whole production runs, road specific inaccurate details, and complete botched locomotive runs like the F7 with windows glued on the outside, color problems, etc. I will not order any more Sunset locomotives as every one of mine has arrived with faults. $700 plus is too much to pay for continual poor quality control. I may change my mind once problems become a minimal occurrence. Comparing Sunset to Kato, is an insult to Kato. Just my opinion.
George
Where the Tarheels rule!
My question is has Sunset ever failed to correct their errors? You cannot fairly compare a $600 plastic loco with a $2000 or $3000 brass piece. As a former dealer I can tell you they ALL have errors in their work. I, for one, wish I hadn't been widowed last summer as there are items I would love to buy but until the estate is settled I will miss Sunsets E units, SD7/9s SD40-2s, etc. If you don't like his products, fine, but do not run him down.
Dick
