Observations About Train Show Attendees

One observation here:

My son loves his Thomas wood set but when it comes to the lionel trains it is Polar Express hands down.  He is 3.5 years old and he tells me because it looks like a real train.  Thomas doesn't.  

"What he said!"

Jerry

You know what I can't stand, All those old people that move at a snail's pace.  Don't even get me started with canes and those, "I am too lazy to walk" mobiles. 

*Note*  I have nothing against old people...... just making a point 

Im probably the youngest one on this forum. Im in my teens and I have been a train fan since I was probably born. All of my older cousins had thomas the tank engine and every time I went to grandmas I was surrounded with Thomas stuff. My love of trains just kept on growing from there. I was probable about 4 years old when I got my first electric train; a Lionel LArge Scale Thomas the Tank Engine Set. I loved it. I'm still hear today talking about trains. I have gotten one of my friends back into the hobby. Its a disease. But most the the time you guys are complaining why younger kids aren't getting into the hobby. The companies need to start going more online, every kid has access to that and by allowing younger kids into train shows your spreading this disease to them and the hobby can live on. 

Lirr 1555,

Thanks for taking the time to post your point of view.

I am curious about one thing, by "going online" do you mean a more active presence on social networking sites?

Lionel Trains and Lionel Racing have pages on Facebook.

By the way, there a few of your age group active on the forum and are into trains.

Interesting comments and observations.

Either way you look at it though, train people are a breed unto ourselves.

Fred

Moonman: Like posting more interactive videos on YouTube. Like a couple of years ago i remember I Love Toy Train series was introduced and like maybe taking out a half an hour one day on a T.V. station and broadcasting that. There are endless possibilites. I don't feel what Lionel is doing now just isn't enough for kids to get a full experience

Totally agree.  For today's kids, Thomas and PE may be the only train they ever think or know about.  Thomas is important for sparking the interest, but I think PE is even more important because it catches kids at an older age where a lifelong interest can be started.

I think Lionel has a long ways to go with furthering the Polar Express line.  They have only scratched the surface.  At some point I can see the movie being re-released in theaters and when that happens there will be a big marketing push. 

It would be nice to see another train story like this emerge.  I'm thinking one that takes place in the summer, maybe an epic journey under the sweltering sun.  A fantasy movie like Never Ending Story.  A train carrying critical freight.  This would keep another train story alive throughout the year when it's not the holidays.

Be careful what you ask for.  We start aging as soon as we are born.  Germany had an answerr for aging in the 1930's.  This country is headed that way.

And maybe we might be asking the wrong question across the board.  How do we get PEOPLE into the hobby.  PERIOD.  Maybe, just maybe, some older people mgiht want to get into the hobby, even in a smaller scale, to do something they never could have done as a child for whatever reason.

Yes, the program is on TV every day in most major markets…generally on PBS channels.

As for his popularity, just look at the crowds they draw at all the "Day With Thomas" events hosted by places like the B&O Museum, Strasburg RR, and others.

Thomas is everywhere, year round.  We should all be grateful for that.

In my 20s model railroading lost me to girls, cars and guitars, but I'm in my 30s now and I'm back for good.  If Lionel trains hadn't been a big part of my childhood, that wouldn't be the case.

I don't think cost is an issue, when mom and dad have no problem shelling out hundreds of dollars for video game systems and accessories that become obsolete in short order, compelling them to shell out more money for upgrades, etc. Have you seen the prices on some Lego sets lately?

In reality, it boils down to what children are exposed to, picking up that exposure and amplifying it into something tactile, as in the case of the Polar Express -  the book, movie, and then the train set. The exposure momentum, which can be broken when an avenue of exposure is relegated to a dark corner of a store on an endcap, or a hobby shop owner or train show vendor doesn't see the value of the exposure, for themselves or the hobby.

Dave, I just want to inform you that Disney and Pixar studios based in California did produce the movie "Cars" but Pixar had nothing to do with Planes movie.  This movie was produced by a Disney production company.  My son works for Pixar and they were very disappointed Disney did not contract with them for the planes movie. 

I will check with him to see about any plans to do a "trains" movie.

Steve, Lady and Tex

I am hardly a kid,but I can't wait to ride the real Polar Express train in Michigan in less than three weeks.

Dan

Thanks Dan for posting the 1225 video. The commentary tells it all.

To me, it is all about planting the seed with young people. The more they are exposed to trains as kids, the better the chances that at some point in their lives they will pick up the hobby.

In terms of children at public train shows, you can't have it both ways. If we want strictly adults, attendance will invariable be down and no seeds can be planted. What made this show successful was the fact it was a nice blend of kids and adults, and the kids appeared to be very well behaved.

I sure am part of the senior citizen circuit, but I personally love to see children at train shows. Most of us are parents and probably the majority of us are also grandparents, so we should remember how important it is to get our kids involved with what we are interested in. Kids learn from their parents and we teach them lessons that will carry them through the journey of life. If only a small percentage pick up our hobby because of going to a train show or having a love of Thomas or the PE, this is positive.

It is obvious from all of the interest in this thread, that this is a subject is of interest to many of us. There was another thread started yesterday about a Forum member who was asked to show his train layout to a couple of kids. The children were fascinated by the layout and this is just one more thing we can do to expose our hobby to kids.

Thanks to all of you for your contributions.

I think that we seniors could do several things to introduce kids to model trains.

First, all of us could put a train around our own holiday tree - even if it is only a loop of HO.  I can't tell you how many seniors that I know who are heavily into the collecting and operating trains who don't have a train around their own tree.  Putting a train around your own tree may create a "holiday train family tradition" that will eventually lead to an interest in the hobby.  Most of the Master Model Railroader biographies published in the NMRA Magazine begin with the sentence - "My interest in trains began when I received a Lionel train for Christmas...."  

Second, we can tell more people about our hobby.  Many model railroaders keep their involvement in the hobby secret.  This tends to reinforce the myth that model railroading is a child's pastime while other hobbies, such as golf, are for real men.  

Third, we can dispel the myth that model railroading is expensive in comparison to other hobbies.  Video games, golf, skiing, car collecting, RC planes, etc., are equally or more expensive than model railroading.  The bottom line is that all hobbies are expensive in their own way.   

Fourth, we can invite friends and family members who are not into model trains to train shows, NMRA events, etc.  For example, I invite all of my friends and neighbors to my club's train shows by email.  A few people on my "train show email list" always show up and bring their kids or grand kids.  I used to advertise my club's shows on my firm's email bulletin board before I retired.  Most of my club's other members, however, don't even tell their friends and families about the club's show.  Again, model railroaders tend to keep their participation in the hobby a secret for some reason.     

Fifth, we can attend train shows and other train events that outside our "comfort" zone.  I attend shows hosted by most of the other clubs in my area about once a year.  Many of my model railroad friends, however, have never attended another club's show.  I know this because I ask them.  I also encourage people in our 3-rail hobby to attend garden railroad shows, HO shows, etc.   I have found that people who have no interest in HO or 3-rail are very interested in garden railroading.  I believe that getting a person involved in any aspect of the hobby is a win for the entire hobby. 

My local NMRA division is constantly talking about how to recruit young people into the hobby.  Yet, when I attend the quarterly division meeting, all I find is men and women with gray hair.  All of the activities are oriented toward the senior set.  This means to me  that people with kids and grand kids are not bringing them to NMRA events.  Even if people did bring younger members, their is no activity designed to appeal to younger members.  I find that TCA members are better at inviting younger people to events.  There still aren't any activities directly aimed at interesting younger members at TCA events in my area.

These are some of my thoughts.  Joe

After reading this this thread I will agree that most kids love trains. Many public layout displays also seem to attract loads of visitors. People love seeing model trains in operation BUT the incentive to set up and build a layout hardly exists in todays times. When I was a boy I was given chemistry sets, Erector sets, plastic model kits, model trains, radio kits and the like. Kids looked forward to building things and running trains. Todays generation is a "hands free" generation. Hobbies like hunting and fishing still exist to a point but the hobby of craftsmanship is almost entirely gone. Thanks to our politicians there are no more factories and hence no machinists, mechanics, furniture makers, assemblers, and machine operators. This has to affect the hobbies that people are interested in. The metal working/woodworking industries and even train making industries were closed and moved to China. A generation lacking opportunity in the  manual dexterity trades is not interested in trains.

I have to completely disagree with you.

Kids still absolutely love being hands on and it's actually proven they learn best that way.  The continuing sales and rise in popularity of Legos is proof point of this. However a static layout with little to no interaction provides little interest to children.  I saw this at a recent train show.  There was a small 4x8 or so layout with buttons kids could push to work different things on the layout.  There was a constant line of children here.

Then there was a big nice modular layout with plexi-glass all around.  This only mildly held interest for a few minutes at best.

This is the reason I tore down my tables and put the trains back on the floor.  My kids love interacting with it using all their other toys.  The problem is we as adults try to limit the imagination and interactivity which is integral to a child's way of thinking.

The recent Lego movie illustrates this point so well and really pushes us to let go and enjoy the fun and imagination of our children and childhoods.

Honestly I think many model rr's and stuffy hobby shops are the biggest detriment to our hobby.

The more open the environment, the more likely it is to attract children.

I was impressed by how long this "feel good" topic lasted until the inevitable negative crept in. I agree with the earlier comment that it's the teenagers we need to see. I go to train shows to buy trains. At Allentown last weekend I barely glanced in the direction of the layouts, and on the early line outside, almost all of us were older men. The hobby survived far worse conditions in the 1970's and I don't think kids kept it going - adults did.

WOW is this a neat topic with very thoughtful posts. I wonder if the manufactures, the club officers, and every older model railroader is paying attention to all the WONDERFUL IDEAS??? To increase or create a market, you have to give the customer what they want. Are we finding out what the target customer wants? Are the old farts in the marketing departments ASKING THE POTENTIAL CUSTOMER? 

Lirr 1555 IS THE TARGET CUSTOMER!!!!! He is a very articulate customer!!!! Do we even ASK  those in the TARGET CUSTOMER group what THEY want??? Do we have market test groups of kids that DO NOT play with trains and ask THEM "WHAT WOULD STIMULATE AN INTEREST IN PARTISAPATEING IN THE TOY TRAIN HOBBY?"??

Manufactures of other products are always trying to find out how to attract new customers by ASKING THE POTENTIAL CUSTOMER.

What WE think will work is not important. What the TARGET CUSTOMER thinks is the ONLY thing that is important. ASK and LISTEN and ACT based on what HE OR SHE says. That is what is called MARKETING RESEARCH. 

I have given away 3 sets to children other than my own. My kids played with trains but were NOT that interested. (maybe some day they will be because of their exposure .... I do not know.)

My niece's son played with the BEAUTIFUL complete train layout I built for and gave to him ($1,000.00 layout with buildings w/lights w/switches to control each building, AUTOMATIC accessories like the classic milk car w/platform, the automatic loading dock, rotating airport light tower, and boxes of Plasticville buildings that he could build and place any where he wanted. I made sure he had both a complete BUILT LAYOUT BUT ALSO the materials to build onto it with his own imagination. Unfortunately the kid "ain't all that bright" and his looser mother kept saying it was a "pile of crappy junk". The kid was not interested. They were going to throw that "junk toy" out with the other disposable junk toys into the trash can. I took the set back. That would have been a $1,000.00 mistake on my part to give them a train set. Silly me.

To my nephew's girls I gave a Thomas the Tank engine set plus the Sir Topam Hat gate house accessory, track, turnouts (manual) add on cars, just about EVERYTHING needed to play with trains. They were too young for it. The dad let them play with the set but had no interest himself with toy trains. I do not know if these girls will be interested in the future.

The third set, a Cascade mountain set with extra dump log cars, search light cars plus several of the Log Loader type action partisapation accessories I gave to a kid who's father was out of work. The Dad helped set up a plywood train table. The boy and his sisters LOVED PLAYING WITH THE TRAINS. But when the hyper-active new born started busting it all up, mom and dad put it in the closet so the hyper kid couldn't get at it. As far as I know it has never come out of the closet since. I am not sure because I have not visited with the family in several years now. This boy MAY become a future toy train hobbyest.

So I believe of all those children that I gave trains to, there is ONLY ONE that MAY get into the hobby some day.

I do not know what all this means, but it is my story, and I am sticking to it.

Paul Goodness

I do have to say, the best analogy I can come up with for Lionel's current business model would be Lincoln/Mercury in the 90s/2000s.... focusing intently on the existing, loyal customer base to the exclusion of all others.  Any attempt to reach out to younger markets were half-hearted and poorly executed (like the sad 1999 Mercury Cougar, which seemed to be aimed more at silencing the critics than actually attracting new blood to the brand.)  We all know what happened to Lincoln/Mercury's core customer base:  they died of old age.  Mercury died with them, and Lincoln has limped along somewhat impotently ever since.

Despite my advanced model skills (drawing from experience acquired in other endeavors) I'm still solidly an "entry level" adult model railroader.  I don't have a layout, and building one is going to require careful budgeting and planning.  I'm sitting on my hands about deciding on a command system because frankly neither is perfect or affordable, and I genuinely distain Lionel's business plan of limiting the top-of-the-line electronics to only the most expensive locomotives (I refuse to be "roped in.")  At least I can buy PS2 and put it in anything, but neither have ALL the features I would want in a command system.  

But if you want to get down to the real brass tacks of where this hobby has left someone like me, let me lay it out for you: I own about 20 locomotives, and I didn't purchase a single one of them new from a hobby shop.  None of it is in my budget.  Does that make me some sort of parasite on the hobby?  I don't know.  I hope not.

I understand that economics are complicated and companies need to operate at a profit, but without incentives to diversify both the age and INCOME level the product appeals to, I think things are going to look bad in the not too distant future.  I have no doubt that SOMEONE will always make "Lionel" trains, but it may be a very different company than we know today (and the company has already changed drastically several times since WWII.)

As for me; I'm not too worried.  I'm going to buy most of the current forum members' trains at auction when I'm retired and you're all dead.  I'm ok with living in a second hand world.

quote:

Does that make me some sort of parasite on the hobby?

No. We are not under any obligation to purchase goods from a hobby shop, or any newly made goods from anywhere else.
If you are worried about "supporting the hobby" or "growing the hobby", you can rest assured that by purchasing used or new old stock trains, you are injecting money into "the hobby".

If someone decides that they have enough trains, and stops making any purchases at all, they still are not parasites.

As I've noted so many times before:

Youngsters--the truly young--enjoy watching real trains, model trains, toy trains, movie trains, and even cartoon trains.

Teens--significant numbers of them--are not all that involved with trains and never have been, even dating back to when trains of all types were an everyday presence in the real world.  Nothing--and I do mean nothing--is going to change that, so there's little point in fretting about it.

Some young adults are involved in the hobby, but those numbers always were relatively small and, again, that is not going to change.  Most young adults are too involved with finding their way in the real world to be devoting time and money to a hobby interest that requires time, space, and fairly significant financial resources.

The core of this hobby has long been older and more settled adults, including those who eventually become empty nesters.  The age demographic may cover a fairly broad range, but an average in my long lifetime has been around 50 years old and that, too, is not at all likely to change.

The model railroading hobby (all scales) is in no danger of "dying," but if you take the time to do your homework you'll find that the O gauge segment, in particular, experienced a resurgence in the mid- to late-1970s, peaked in the 1990s and early years of the current century, and has begun to taper off.  That trend, also largely driven by simple demographics, is not apt to change to an appreciable degree no matter what manufacturers and we hobbyists do.  We can sit back and fret about that, or we can do the best we can--as individual participants--to demonstrate the personal satisfaction, relaxation, and individual creativity that the hobby of model railroading can bring to one's life in an increasingly demanding and troubled world.  

At least that's how I see it.

Great topic and discussion. 

Thomas is on twice / day Mon-Sat on two different PBS stations I get on DirecTV. 

I've never seen Polar Express or Thomas & Friends except the Thomas segments on Shining Time Station which I used to watch with my nephew who couldn't get enough.  I hope Disney does a 'Trains' movie.  We need some train love in pop culture to keep young people and their families  coming into the hobby.

There is one thing I wish the train shows would do.  Open up an hour earlier, FOR ADULTS ONLY!  Why do I say that?  With younger gernally having no manors, and parents/responsible adults not correcting them, it is really hard for older people, especially those with canes, walkers and chairs, powered or manual, to get around safely.

 

And if a talk at a train show is about the history of a railroad, or how to model something, children under middle school age should not be there.  I came to hear the speaker, not some child!

How about this, the train shows open up a hour early for adults with children and you come later...much.

Who do you suppose is the target market for Lionel's Lionchief Remote sets?

Pete

I sure hope it's families with young kids.

Exactly what I was attempting to imply.

Pete