Oh No! PRR 1361 back in the news !

Anyway to get the link to the article so we could all read it for ourselves? 

yes please

I'd try Bill's Pennsy Photos, or maybe the Altoona Mirror.  I'll see if I can get back into the blurb.

well the only story showing up on the Mirror's site is from 2008....

I couldn't find it on Bill's Pennsy photos but thanks! 

Hello everybody, I asked the other day on another post about 1361 and got no response.

I have been down to the Railroaders Museum and the roadhouse looks all but finished and looks for nice, a fitting home for a queen of the rails!!!!

 

 1361 tender is sitting down in front of the museum. It is unpainted so i am sure surface rust will become an issue if it is not moved inside and out of the weather.

 

Either way it would nice to have her back in Altoona in one piece.

The article was by Bill Kibler of the Altoona Mirror on Jan.9, 2014.  I was able to retrieve that illusive puppy quite by accident.  It was part of a posting by Bill's Pennsy Photos, and the article was an exact duplicate/ copy.   Maybe yunz K4....and mebby yunz don't !    

There is a scan of the article posted here: 
Thursday, January 9, 2014 Altoona Mirror article "Council approves K-4 grant renewal"

Wow "hopfully fired up this year" thats some pretty good news.

This farce has been discussed at great length on RYPN and TrainOrders, and the general consensus from the folks that actually live in the Altoona, PA area is,,,,it is a "cut and paste" of a news paper article from MANY years ago with a "new date" on it.

 

There is no way that 1361 could be "fired up" this year, since it hasn't even been reassembled yet.

well, if people on the internet say it cant't happen i guess it never will

I'd agree with that!   And then there's the issue with the boiler / firebox config.  Everybody here knows the drill on this one, and how they're going to proceed would be a most interesting question.  I think it might be possible to get some of the locomotive inside during the course of the year...but if this chooch runs before UP 4014, I'd be surprised !  

If this "chooch" runs at ALL, I'll be AMAZED!!!

At this point, I'd be perfectly happy if it was reassembled, made to look good from a cosmetic perspective and suitably displayed within the museum.

 

Bob   

Absolutely!!!  The key point being, INSIDE THE MUSEUM.

Absolutely no way it will be fired up in 2014.

 

That article is interesting for all the things it does NOT mention. The boiler work required, CFR230 certification, a new FRA Form 4...all of which is in question because of the original, deficient PRR design. Under the current regulations, the locomotive cannot be operated at its design pressure without significant changes to the boiler in the firebox area. 

 

I will ask Gary Bensman if he can chime in here with details. He is one of the foremost steam men in the country.

Good evening everybody, i agree with you about the article that is shown. Things just don't add up.

The only way I see 1361 under steam this year if the call the division of Overhaulin that works on steam locomotives.

These guys  on this show (in one hour I might add) can take a bucket of rust and make it look show quality in 7 days.

 

Interesting about the boiler and the Pennsy design though.

 

Here is the link to a 2008 article written by the same reporter for the same newspaper:

 

Altoona Mirror: K-4 to return — in pieces 
Railroaders museum to display parts of historic locomotive in Altoona

Here's a quote of that article, published on May 18, 2008:

Still, new director Larry Salone isn’t backing away from predictions — although he’s giving himself room for error.

Under his first timetable, the K-4 could be done within 18 months — or it could take up to twice that long.

Also, FWIW, the museum has a webpage about the locomotive:  Railroaders Memorial Museum - The Journey of K-4 #1361   That page currently says:

The new management team of the Railroaders Memorial Museum, hired in late 2007, has evaluated the locomotive,  analyzed the physical and financial requirements to get it operational, and then assembled a plan for success that was  completed in late 2010.
Now, here in 2013, the K4 #1361 is ready to finish its remarkable and historic journey back to Altoona and the Railroaders Museum. The new Harry Bennett Memorial Roundhouse will become its home, and final construction, repair and re-assembly to operating status will take place in 2013 here at the roundhouse. A team of museum employees as well as outside specialists will be undertaking the completion of the locomotive back to operating status.

It took THREE YEARS to analyze "...the physical and financial requirements to get it operational..."?

 

And THREE MORE YEARS to get to where the 1361 is now "...ready to finish its remarkable and historic journey back to Altoona..." whatever that means. It's been in Altoona for years.

 

With that kind of "efficiency" it's GOT to be a government job. 

This whole thing is just an absolute shame...

Crime might  be a better choice of words.

I am not sure what all is involved with making the boiler compatible to conform with the CFR230 Certification or the FRA Form 4 but if you are into this engine this deep and this close to finishing the project I vote you update the boiler to current design standards.

 

I realize it is easy to spend other peoples money and on a project like this, and every nickel spent has to be accounted for, but you have come this far and spent this much money already a little more to make the engine operational and make it right has to be worth the added expense.

 

I can't imagine skipping over the boiler upgrades thinking that the situation will never arise for the K4 to run under her own power somewhere out on the rails is foolish.

 

I realize there is a lot more to it than calling up a railroad whether it is a Class 1 or a local short line and say hey, "do you mind if I bring my steam engine out and make a couple runs with her on your line".

 

I will say this, a steam engine draws attention no matter where it goes. In the Altoona area this past early summer when 765 and her crew came to town the area was buzzing.

And for the local economy that buzzing sound is the sound of money being spent!!!

 

Young or old rail fan or not, the Altoona and surrounding towns people came out to see this magnificent machine of the past.

A machine their Grandparents told them about but a younger generation rarely seen.

A machine that made housewives who hung the clean wash on the clothes line scramble across the yard to get the cloths off the line before they were covered with cinders as the local coal drag or freight came buy.

 

It will most likely be out of our hands, lets hope whoever makes the decision makes the right one.

If it is the wrong decision we will have to live with it.

 Whatever decision is made hopefully the K4 will back in one piece where the public can see this once proud Jewel of the Pennsylvania Railroad.

 

 

So, Rich, et al, with this boiler design that the 1361 currently has, what would the MOP be for this engine??

I have heard numbers in the 150 - 160 psi area, however I'm not positive of that.

 

A K4 running at only 150 psi would be a pretty lame locomotive.

There are those who say it was pretty lame at 205....I maintain the K4s was at it's best on the NY&LB, and somewhat less than stellar elsewhere.  But then Pennsy appeal is seldom about all out performance.  Another thought; where are we going to get the 10 to 12 P70 coaches to put behind this legendary chooch?  If she's stuck with pulling a bunch of Amfleet tube-jobs, she might as well be in work train service, or at home in the museum.

the k4s story

 

>> If she's stuck with pulling a bunch of Amfleet tube-jobs, she might as well be in work train service, or at home in the museum.<<

 

AMEN to that!  A "dog's breakfast" of private varnish would be slightly better, echoing the interline convention specials that once operated to Atlantic City and Asbury Park.

 

 

I don't want to stir up trouble. But I can't understand how so much money could be poured into 1361 with nothing to show for it. She was restored in 1987 and she wasn't wrecked or abandoned.

 

Bigger locomotives - 765, 261, and 1225, for example - were restored and they are doing fine. The Reading & Northern brought 425 back to service twice, though she may be smaller than a K4.

The answer is that the 3 stooges were hired to do the restoration.  Here are their names:

• Incompetence
• Corruption
• Ego

People who had NO CLUE how to do a locomotive restoration were hired.  Work was re-done numerous times (poorly) until the money was all gone.  The effort was grossly mismanaged by the Railroader's Museum in Altoona.  Amateurs were used instead of giving the job to someone who could perform it - like the Strasburg Railroad shops.

 

ReadingFan, the whole story would take weeks to type and read.  It's a very sad tale... 

 

George

Can Rich or Hotwater explain why, until 1361 gets fixed, she would have to run at a reduced pressure? Particularly involving the design of the Belpaire Firebox.

 

Thanks! 

The 1987 effort was not a restoration.

It was more like a QUICK FIX.

Never underestimate the highly corrosive nature of politics !

The original design, which really has nothing to do with the Belpaire Design, did NOT have a design safety factor of 4, for the sheet thickness vs. the stay bolt diameter & spacing. None of that really mattered during the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, and the 1950s. As a result of the Gettysburg Railroad boiler failure, which resulted in serious injuries, the FRA in conjunction with the NBIC, became part of an Engineering Standards Committee which represented the major steam operators, the NBIC, and of course the FRA. 

 

Requirements for compliance to design standards are now looked at MUCH closer, than previously, thus none of the PRR K4s, nor the G5, locomotives comply.

Thanks Hotwater for the response. That helps to clarify. 

 

One thing though, is it a good thing the FRA changed the rules about standard designs? I can understand how the Gettysburg boiler blowup caused a big issue but wasn't that from human error and neglect not design flaw? 

 

Also, how did NKP 765 and SP 4449 for example comply with this new rule? Did you guys have to change anything at all? 

Government monies and some maint. admin. is obviously involved, otherwise nothing would have happened due to lack of private interest.  But sadly they are continuing to perform "prototypical Pennsy maintenance" from that engine's later era that include stubborn, arrogant, and half-arsed decisions and work.

 

13 years ago I toured Steamtown's shops where the guide proudly showed the recently disassembled 1361 and stated, "we expect to have 1361 completed and back on the tracks within the next 24 months..."  Each subsequent year 1361's "progress" reports became more amazing by what could they mess up this time.  I too believe, as was stated above, that 1361's restoration should have been performed by experienced professionals and not amateur volunteers.  Strasburg Shops should have been engaged to do this project if they wanted the work done in PA.  Trying not to sound cynical, but this PA project just followed the Std. Operating Procedures of many other past/present/future PA govt. projects with its poor planning and operational and financial mismanagement that effectively greased someone's wheels instead of those of #1361.

Uncle Fester

 

    Thanks for posting that video of 1361 in 1987. What a beauty and what a whistle. Any Lionel Legacy steam engine would be proud to have a steam whistle effect like that one. I know it was a damp rainy day but wow.

    I have a Kline TMCC engine but I think I may try to hunt down a Legacy engine of 1361 after watching that.

    I know there is not a lot of chance she will ever run again but my hopes will always be that she does.

 

JohnB

Agree that 150-160 psi would make it very lame.

 

Thanks!

!) Yes, the whole Gettysburg Railroad mess was strictly human error, on both the owner's part AND the FRA inspector's part. The FRA had a LOT of edge on it's face over that whole fiasco.

 

2) Virtually ALL steam locomotives constructed in the 20th century, except for some classes of PRR locomotives and the Santa Fe 2900 class 4-8-4s, are in compliance with past and current FRA regulations. Thus, nothing needed to be done, engineering wise, to 765, 1225, 3751, 261, 844, 3984, 4449, 700, and a whole lot of other 20th century steam locomotives out there that have run, or might run in the future. Only the Santa Fe 2900 class locomotives di NOT comply with the design safety factor of 4, because the Santa Fe Mechanical Department's Engineering Staff wanted the boilers constructed to THEIR specifications. However, the Baldwin Locomotive Works Chief Engineer informed the Santa Fe that their, the Santa Fe design, did NOT comply with current ICC (forerunner of the FRA) requirements. The Santa Fe subsequently informed Baldwin that, if they wanted the order of the 2900 class locomotives, that Baldwin would build them per Santa Fe requirements. As the result, the original Federal Form 4 certificates (essentially the birth certificate for each locomotive, with all the appropriate engineering calculations) where NOT signed off by anyone at Baldwin, but were signed by a Santa Fe officer.