Well said. Silly argument.
The original poster asked for opinions on smoke. I offered what I hear from many modelers. ie most 3 railers want it and most 2 railers don't. Supposedly model railroading is fun. I just finished running an express /mail train on my permanent 2 rail Christmas garden and it was fun. But these debates don't interest me that much and I don't find them to be fun so I concede to anyone who wants to be the winner. I'll be a satisfied loser.
2 rail, 3 rail, smoke, no smoke, I don't care what floats someone else's boat. I am satisfied with what I have and since I purchased it with my own money that's good enough for me.
And Peter, I never said 3 rail trains were toys and 2 rail trains were not. They are all toys or models depending on what you want to call them. I don't see that an extra rail is the differentiator nor are electronic features.
I agree 100% as a 3 railer. Make my own smoke fluid and no problems-enjoy it.
I'm holding two bottles of "smoke" fluid viz: a Crest brand and a Mega-Steam (which smells like diesel).
Both carry warnings about using them in confined spaces; which I choose to ignore from time to time. 
It also says . . . DO NOT DRINK! So far I've managed to comply with that instruction. 
Supplementary question: I'm building in Ow5 (2 rail) - not P48. Am I building toys?
I hope so. Hee Hee. 
Hot Water posted:Amazing how many professed "3-Railers" have responded to this subject on the 2-Rail SCALE forum.
And, how many times have you gone on the Hi-Rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O Gauge forum just to criticize a new member that is enthusiastically showing his new semi-scale engine, because it has the incorrect johnson rod or some other stupid reason?
And, yes OP .... you're right, smoke is a crowd pleaser. Always is. Large or small open houses. Good luck.
PJB posted:.. last time I checked, ALL steam locomotives emitted steam. ...
guess Bill forgot to turn on the smoke unit again!
fyi... technically speaking, steam is invisible.
Attachments
MaxSouthOz posted:I'm holding two bottles of "smoke" fluid viz: a Crest brand and a Mega-Steam (which smells like diesel).
Both carry warnings about using them in confined spaces; which I choose to ignore from time to time.
It also says . . . DO NOT DRINK! So far I've managed to comply with that instruction.
Supplementary question: I'm building in Ow5 (2 rail) - not P48. Am I building toys?
I hope so. Hee Hee.
Max, my friend, they're ALL toys, with some being more realistic than others! What I would like to know, is "semi-scale" like "semi-pregnant"?? Seems to me it's either scale or NOT, same for the latter example!
G'day!
Simon
You know what they say, Simon . . . "He who dies with the most toys, wins."
I woke up this morning & had numerous emails about my postings last evening- Not 1, Not 2, Not 3 emails, but 4. Fellas, (and ladies)- No harm was meant about the postings & I apologize for offending anyone. Feel free to follow through and report me to the moderators, or whatever else you feel the need to do. This has always been a fun hobby for me, (and I assume a lot of other people), and if I bunched up your eyebrows in frustration, it wasn't intentional.
Don't sweat it, Roger, er Pete.
I for one, got a laugh out of it. 
Cheers
No Worries Max- I actually love the Grumpy Cat memes- I am thinking about making some into train billboards for our public display... 
Will smoke units work using plain water? And if so, any potential problems there?
Couple Christmases ago I bought my son a rideable Thomas engine at Toys R Us. It was battery powered and had a smoke unit that worked on plain water. Must have had some heating element in the smoke stack that turned water into water vapor. Even had chuffing action.
rheil posted:...
And Peter, I never said 3 rail trains were toys and 2 rail trains were not. They are all toys or models depending on what you want to call them. I don't see that an extra rail is the differentiator nor are electronic features.
RHEIL, yes that's true. But, in the context of the "smoke effects are toy like" discussion, you were the one who attempted a "technical" argument to support that illogical viewpoint. You stated that steam effects on a model steamer didn't make sense because the models are not coal powered. As I said, that should lead you and anyone else sharing that mindset to only seek out models that are miniature versions of prototypes that get power through the rails.
Anyway, my posts - as you can see from my first - were only meant to poke fun at the 2-railer viewpoint on steam effects being non-prototypical, given this is patently illogical and comical to me. It wasn't a commentary on whether or not one should operate with smoke. As I've also said, I typically do not - but not because of an illogically upturned nose. Rather, it's because I prefer my children not to breath the vapor and to avoid undue rail residue.
Frankly, I had been seriously considering our next layout being 2-rail but what's really dissuading is the illogical snooty 'tudes I keep seeing from this crowd. I can only imagine the scorn if my earliest steamer were from say 1940 and I also had a scale 1939 automobile on my layout. The horror!
In terms of the OP, with 20 foot ceilings in a relatively spacious and well ventilated room, the answers should have had nothing to do with whether smoke effects are toy like or not, or whether the model is powered as is the prototype. That didn't seem to have anything to do with the query.
Smoke, interesting item. I have a client who installed a manifold of 6" H.V.A.C. ducting in his train room ceiling so he could run smoking units yet keep the area somewhat clean. It utilized a high CFM inline fan unit which pushed the smog out of the house.
I would run a smoker for a minute or two but that's it. It can make a mess.
1:1 trains run out doors. Very difficult to scale down the smoke effect when the room turns into a haze.
Remember. No steam engines were allow "indoors" in NYC. The passenger trains were shuttled "outside" with third rail electric power to the over the road steam engine.
Back on track. One of the recurring concerns of running smoke with any copious amounts of output is either the health aspects of burning something, even if it's mineral oil, or to the effect to the "environment" of getting on everything in the train room. I'm surprised that manufacturers of model trains still haven't developed/offered a smoke unit that does run on plain water. I'm certainly not a chemist or physicist, steam railroader or even an internet search expert but I wonder how much water and how much "juice" it would take to make a credible scale "steam generator" that ran on water.
Might finally be a use for model trains to carry an auxiliary tender. 
By heating water hot enough you make STEAM !! Ever had a steam burn ?? Nasty. And you would need a heavier duty heating element in the smoke unit. Smokeaholics like lots of smoke. My old Lionels smoke(some of them) but just enough to be visible. Like a real well-fired steam engine.
Hot Water posted:Phoebe Snow Route posted:Reading all of the replies in the OP's thread and understanding where Hotwater is coming from, why are there so many enthusiasts who don't like smoke units in their locos?
WHAT???? Are you sure you typed that correctly? I always think that MOST "enthusiasts" in the 3-Rail, "toy train" world, LIKE the smoke, swinging bells, smoking whistles, and smoking boiler blowdowns.
After watching Eric Siegal's video reviews, it seems the manufacturers bowed to the wishes of the people buying trains. As said above, we now have smoking whistles, blow down whatever, cylinder smoke, etc, etc. So I would imagine smoke is still alive and well in this hobby.
Breath deep the gathering gloom............... . . . . . .
I could use more and better smoke effects. I thoroughly enjoy the smoke features
Bob C.
My old Lionels smoke(some of them) but just enough to be visible. Like a real well-fired steam engine.
I prefer smoke pellet smoke to smoke fluid smoke. As several others have posted, I don't want to inhale mineral oil vapors or have it deposited throughout my home. It's my impression that the "smoke" from smoke pellets solidifies and becomes dust. Some engines smoke a lot better than others. Some blow smoke rings 
.
Whatever they do, its enough for me.
My opinion regarding smoke:
- A smoking diesel, is a broken diesel. I just turn it off. OK, if it's an Alco, that's prototypical.
- Smoke isn't smoke, it's oil vapor. Smoke has been so vilified in our society that even if you emitted pure steam, someone is going to be offended.
- MESSY, MESSY, MESSY. It gets on the track, locomotives, and everything else. When it's run on the modular layout, it just redoubles the work to keep the track clean.
I do occasionally run it on my steamers.
Some guys blow smoke, some of my engines blow smoke rings. Usually smoke and dust bother my sinuses but my loco smoke doesn't.
What ever residue settles on the home and furniture is also in our lungs.
I have not had any problems as I always have good ventilation in place. but without sufficient ventilation there can definitely be problems
Bob C.
using water for steam, heat some little rocks, then mist water on them, is one way, then your dealing with big time rust. yap those rocks would be at least 212 degrees,, but those resistors get hot too.. and don't you consume mineral oil?,
and don't you consume mineral oil?,
In what?
And even if I ingest mineral oil, I don't inhale it.
If the smoke that is coming out of the models does not look realistic, forms thin smoke rings and swirls and lingers in the air unrealistically, forms an unrealistic oily residue on the track, scenery and the model itself, then no, the smoke really is not a modeling feature or not a good one for some people. It makes sense. I'd agree with those who say there are more non-benefits than benefits. If you like the smoke units and think they look realistic, then by all means, smoke away.
I do turn the smoke on every once in a while but more as a novelty item.
PJB posted:Frankly, I had been seriously considering our next layout being 2-rail but what's really dissuading is the illogical snooty 'tudes I keep seeing from this crowd. I can only imagine the scorn if my earliest steamer were from say 1940 and I also had a scale 1939 automobile on my layout. The horror!
Don't lump us all as being that way. Come on over, and do as you please! Don't let a few people discourage you! And you're not going to find a nicer guy than Bob Heil.
Simon
Have to laugh at this thread. When I returned to MRR, after a hiatus of 50 years, I had some innocent, legitimate questions about smoke and smoke units.
Had no idea the prickly people here would go ballistic over the matter!
Smoke looks great! But smoke units are one of the most trouble-prone aspects of model steamers. Wicking that is hard to get to for checking and replacement and prone to burning up. Difficult to impossible to keep the proper balance between keeping the wicking wet enough not to burn and flooding the unit and having the stuff dribble inside. Eventually, one or the other is inevitable.
It's a special treat. For visitors by all means. Day to day running, smoke stays turned off.
Long term health concerns are a legitimate question AFAIAC but the issue seems rather unresolved with so many variables . . . individual sensitivity, ventilation, etc.
christopher N&W posted:If the smoke that is coming out of the models does not look realistic, forms thin smoke rings and swirls and lingers in the air unrealistically, forms an unrealistic oily residue on the track, scenery and the model itself, then no, the smoke really is not a modeling feature or not a good one for some people. It makes sense.
Yes, it makes perfect sense. Fold in the oily residue in one's sinus and lungs, and the equation is complete.
jim pastorius posted:By heating water hot enough you make STEAM !! Ever had a steam burn ?? Nasty. And you would need a heavier duty heating element in the smoke unit. Smokeaholics like lots of smoke. My old Lionels smoke(some of them) but just enough to be visible. Like a real well-fired steam engine.
This thread is so humorous to read. I'm so sorry I didn't include a video of the 3-year old getting burned by steam. I'm also so sorry that I misrepresented this as a Thomas train, when it is a Thomas look-a-like by Imaginarium. My post did say water and water vapor and smoke, not steam. Click this link, then click on play video, then tell me why this can't be done very cheaply in an O scale toy model train.
It would be interesting to know how much difference in price an engine without all the smoke gadgetry would cost. Typical smoke unit assy is at least $50 (from list at Brasseur Trains), add in the wiring, the electronic circuitry, the design and labor costs and I bet it's well over $100. I'd be willing to spend less for an engine w/o smoke.
Don't run a OEM cost factor against your cost. OEM probably 1/10 of that number.
1946, have you looked into what they are using, I would think a ceramic resistor, thermsistor,
Bob Delbridge posted:It would be interesting to know how much difference in price an engine without all the smoke gadgetry would cost. Typical smoke unit assy is at least $50 (from list at Brasseur Trains), add in the wiring, the electronic circuitry, the design and labor costs and I bet it's well over $100. I'd be willing to spend less for an engine w/o smoke.
S Helper Service was asked this question when their S Scale 2-8-0 came out years ago, they said the price reduction at the retail level would be around $5.00.
Rusty
Would it be possible to make smoke such as a cool mist humidifier makes. I imagine it could be done but one problem is the white dust this ultrasonic unit produces from the dissolved minerals in the water.Maybe the use of distilled water might help. Just a thought.
MaxSouthOz posted:IIt also says . . . DO NOT DRINK! So far I've managed to comply with that instruction.
JUST GREAT!!! Now you tell me...
Jerry
Rusty Traque posted:the price reduction at the retail level would be around $5.00.
So you're saying the manufacturer, even though they might save $100+ on each model (my SWAG) at the design/production level, would still charge $95 for something that wasn't there??? If so, it's only because they want to guarantee a profit. The material alone would cost more than that.
what they say now is to use deionized water, for like your cars cooling system, and other things, not distilled water,
Gents,
I'm certain that many of you have caught a glimpse or two of the show called Shark Tank. Often when the Sharks ask the presenter what their product costs to manufacture it is often stated to be 4 to 5 times less than the retail. For whole sale at least 3 times. Now regarding development cost of a simple smoke system in no way can cost $100 per unit sold! At best, given it is ancient technology, the worst case scenario is $5-$10.00 per unit sold. That includes development / acquisition of the parts, testing, installation etc etc. So let's keep in mind that the manufacturer is in the business of making a PROFIT, and just like your personal vehicles you drive every day, the dealership marks up the replacement part cost about three times so that he can earn a profit. So why wouldn't a toy manufacturer?
This discussion is meaningless, if the end cost reduction is in reality only say $6.00, he's not going to pass that savings onto the customer as there isn't any real difference with and without. Now if he were to offer it with and without smoke units, just keep in mind the logistics of keeping it all straight at the warehouse and now having to have a different product number and set of boxes. It would be a nightmare!
No one says you need to run the smoke unit so simply turn it off. And then at resale time you can honestly say that it hasn't been used and is in new condition.
Myself, I enjoy seeing the locomotive's smoke and though it may or not be a real health hazard, I'm not running it night and day to the point it will kill me or the family. Just make certain that you have proper ventilation for the amount of smoke / vapor you typically like to run.
Terry Danks posted:Have to laugh at this thread. When I returned to MRR, after a hiatus of 50 years, I had some innocent, legitimate questions about smoke and smoke units.
Had no idea the prickly people here would go ballistic over the matter!
Smoke looks great! ...
Yes! It seems the 2-rail and scale folks often perceive smoke as a "toy train" feature which is beneath their dignity. Some of these guys will kill brain cells with beer and booze, and clog their arteries with hamburgers and fries, but loco smoke in any quantity is dangerously unhealthy!
I think the smoke is fun, just on a couple postwar locos. I don't want it on diesel locos or cabooses or buildings. I turned off the smoke on my Big Boy loco because it puts out too much volume, and the fan drive feature does not emulate a puffing action.
I'm not producing enough smoke to notice a problem with smoke residue fallout. I have more of a problem with ordinary dust.
Some of the battery-power kids trains had a "cold steam" feature which was a fine water spray illuminated with an LED. Entirely safe, but we wouldn't want water spray on model trains. On the other hand, it might humidify the room for folks who want that.
My train smoke appearance is enhanced when back-lit. The train manufacturers might consider LED illumination from the stack to achieve a good visual effect with lower emissions.
Lionel 246 Scout with Marx tender and cars. (smoke unit from a #236 Scout)
