Opinions on Smoke..

Like many of you, for a long time I scoffed at the notion that there was any risk from model train smoke. I was in a 3 rail round robin group and a guy joined who had a very alarming, violent allergic reaction to the smoke and went out in an ambulance. It was a real eye opener to how everyone reacts differently.

If a little kid who has never been around toy train smoke comes in for the first time, sucks down a big breath full of it and has a reaction, it could be bad news for the club. I'm sure you guys have some sort of insurance for whatever nutty stuff could happen, but maybe put up some signs or something or take some simple actions to cover your butts regarding the smoke.

christopher N&W posted:

Like many of you, for a long time I scoffed at the notion that there was any risk from model train smoke. I was in a 3 rail round robin group and a guy joined who had a very alarming, violent allergic reaction to the smoke and went out in an ambulance. It was a real eye opener to how everyone reacts differently.

If a little kid who has never been around toy train smoke comes in for the first time, sucks down a big breath full of it and has a reaction, it could be bad news for the club. I'm sure you guys have some sort of insurance for whatever nutty stuff could happen, but maybe put up some signs or something or take some simple actions to cover your butts regarding the smoke.

Interesting.  I'd rather doubt that very many folks actually have any real personal liability insurance coverage.

As for booze, beer, and fat consumption, my lungs are something I have assiduously protected for many decades of working in chemistry labs.  I've learned the hard way what a whiff of the wrong stuff can do to you.  Allergic reactions seem to be part of today's life - everybody is allergic to something......someone hospitalized once is 1 time too many.

Well when I started this thread, I never expected it to end up like this. And from reading the replies the it seems to be a mixed bagged. 

C W Burfle posted:

and don't you consume mineral oil?,

In what?
And even if I ingest mineral oil, I don't inhale it.

Mineral oil has been commonly used as a laxative and skin moisturizer, so it is relatively benign in those contexts. I believe mineral oil has been commonly used in the past as smoke fluid; I suspect that's what American Flyer and Marx used. It's easily available and relatively cheap.

When I smoke, I don't inhale.

How do some of you get out of bed in the morning?   Here's a idea, if you like the smoke and don't have any respiratory issues then use it, and if you don't like it or you or a guest have respiratory issues then don't. Can it dirty up track and scenery?  I believe so, but it's your layout so do what you like.  I would suggest that if you have the means to install some type of ventilation to do so, it won't hurt.  

ACE you are close. One of the biggest producers of pure mineral oil is about 25-30 miles north of me. A long time ago they told me where it was used and I was amazed. A lot went in to products that were meant for the body.

vonhammer87 posted:

Well when I started this thread, I never expected it to end up like this. And from reading the replies the it seems to be a mixed bagged. 

You actually got some great responses, if you can engage you BS filter and filter out all the mud-slinging that started with the 3rd reply to your original post.

Just to be clear, I have both 2-rail and 3-rail engines, none of them have working smoke (1 of 18 still has the smoke unit in it, only because I just got it and haven't taken it out yet).

Everyone has their likes and dislikes, I dislike smoke, I'm not trying to persuade anybody to jump to one side or the other, just giving you an answer.

Actually went to a seminar the other day on smoke vs. no smoke in model railroading. 

Took a picture of the proceedings:

Rusty

I get a chuckle out of the complaints made when "toy trains" are mentioned.    Someone said it and it is true, They are ALL toys!

But I am going to offer an opinion of the differences between the modelers and the typical 3 rail guys.     Now these are not hard and fast rules and there exceptions, but I have seen a lot of evidence that they are a strong trend.

The modelers, generally 2-rail, want the equipment to all be scale size.   The more experienced they are, the more they want to be only in prototypical paint schemes.    They don't care moving cattle and rocket launching cars.     they don't care for multi-colored lights all over the front of a steamer.    They don't care for sound much, unless it is locomotive sound (and many don't like that all that much)   Much sound for steam is just not coordinated with the drivers.    They tend to refer to lengths of models in prototype feet reference.

The typical 3-rail collector does not worry much about scale proportions, especially if it is an historic reproduction that one of the famous company's did once.     They also don't care about prototype paint schemes for the most part.    They seem to like flashy colors more and don't mind if Pennsy engines are painted santa Fe etc.    they like operating accessories, it brings back memories of things they had or wanted to have.    They like the red and green lights on the front of the steamers.    The think the "station sounds" and "engine talk" are fun, even though there were no hotbox detectors in steam days.     They generally like sound and animation on more stuff.    They tend to refer to lengths of equipment in inches.

The "smoke" guys seem to be winning, Rusty. 

MaxSouthOz posted:

The "smoke" guys seem to be winning, Rusty. 

I noticed that...

Rusty

I am a smoke and choke guy all the way. I love it.

Bob C.

Rusty Traque posted:

MaxSouthOz posted:

The "smoke" guys seem to be winning, Rusty. 

I noticed that...

Rusty

I didn't know it was a contest...you win, we lose.

There it's settled, smoke em if you got em

I'll go play with my "smokeless" 2-rail & 3-rail TOYS

vonhammer87 posted:

Well when I started this thread, I never expected it to end up like this. And from reading the replies the it seems to be a mixed bagged. 

It is a pretty good thread,  other than a few pot stirrings. 

I would not have thought at first about someone's child being allergic to the smoke.  I'm sure that very well could happen but if you were operating with a legal consumer product I would think that would limit your liability. 

All in all I can't see how it could hurt an open house and I am sure it might help... even if the little folks coming in someday give up smoke and noise for rivet counting.  

vonhammer87 posted:

Well when I started this thread, I never expected it to end up like this. And from reading the replies the it seems to be a mixed bagged. 

vonhammer87 - Would you please stop interrupting the conversation with some nonsense about your original post!

ACE - they may or may not be the same thing as mineral spirits, but they market "essential oils" for vaporization in your house via diffusers. Help with relaxation and other stuff. 

Good evening, I am a smoker guy with steam engines.

I don't run any diesel but have seen some running on a large layout and they look a bit odd with smoke billing out of the stack at speed.

I am thinking a simulated blown turbo charger !!!!!!!

It would be neat though when you throttle up from 0 you would get a burst of smoke and as the engine began to pickup speed the smoke would diminish.

Remember the old Army saying "Smoke 'em if you gottem! "  Probably don't say it any more.  Would you rather use a vape or run a smoking loco ?  Not a GE diesel, though. They need black smoke with some orange flames.

I like running smoke, but I don't do it all the time. I have some engines that smoke and others that don't. I had a exhaust fan installed over my layout and I turn it on when I'm running smoke or I turn the smoke unit off. The exhaust fan does a good job pulling the smoke out of the room. When I'm running trains on the club layout I run smoke all the time. Nobody in the club has a issue with smoke, but if it was bothering them I would turn it off.

Uh oh. But I run 2 rail? Must be why my judgement is clouded???

I don't have any issues with oil on the rails? I do clean them every year whether they need it or not...

Well I have always liked steam locomotives.The sight of a steam locomotive pulling a long train.And having smoke hang over the train.Now some times I will set my smoke unit on light.A good fireman can have a steam locomotive smoke so light.You have to look hard to see it.

Rule292 posted:I would not have thought at first about someone's child being allergic to the smoke.  I'm sure that very well could happen but if you were operating with a legal consumer product I would think that would limit your liability. 

 

That may be and the odds are tremendously far out, but lawyers are going to sue up the line. It isn't really about being able to win or lose a case. It probably doesn't cost anything to run the scenerio past someone who is more qualified to answer the question.

Engineer-Joe posted:

Uh oh. But I run 2 rail? Must be why my judgement is clouded???

I don't have any issues with oil on the rails? I do clean them every year whether they need it or not...

I have had the same experience with oil on the rails. It has never been a problem for me. I've been running smoke for decades and I have never noticed it causing any kind of problem. I have always been puzzled by those people who claim it is a big problem. I just don't see it. I also run N scale with DCC. There is no smoke there, but I have to clean the rails pretty much on a weekly basis if not more frequently.

I wonder if those people having issues are running DC? It would stand to reason that those of us running DCC or DCS might have fewer problems due to the capacitance built into our electronics. That might be a difference.

ACE - they may or may not be the same thing as mineral spirits, but they market "essential oils" for vaporization in your house via diffusers. Help with relaxation and other stuff. 

They also sell cigarettes.

I wonder if those people having issues are running DC? It would stand to reason that those of us running DCC or DCS might have fewer problems due to the capacitance built into our electronics. That might be a difference.

 

Except, some of the people who are discussing the issue here are 3 railers. And when it comes up on the 3 rail forum the issue of oil on the track always comes up as well. My thought is these people are running their trains VERY frequently, more than I can imagine. I have seen one 3 rail layout that was run so frequently that the trains themselves had an even film on them. I don't want any oil on the track, no way, no how.

Smoke em till you choke em.

Ron,   Now my monitor is all smoked up! My attorneys, Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe will be calling!

Simon

Can't recall EVER seeing an ALCO put out white smoke.

I only have one steam locomotive with smoke (an MTH N&W J) and the last time I turned the feature on is when my 6 year old grandson visited.  I agree that it looks better than no smoke at all but I find the smell irritating, and would be concerned about the oil residue's  effect on a weathered locomotive's finish - and my lungs.  When I install DCC sound decoders in my brass locomotives I mount a speaker in the smokebox under the stack.  My railroad is designed for close to the track walk around train operation and crew/visitors notice the difference when the chuff comes from the engine versus the tender.  Each to his own.

christopher N&W posted:

Rule292 posted:I would not have thought at first about someone's child being allergic to the smoke.  I'm sure that very well could happen but if you were operating with a legal consumer product I would think that would limit your liability. 

 

That may be and the odds are tremendously far out, but lawyers are going to sue up the line. It isn't really about being able to win or lose a case. It probably doesn't cost anything to run the scenerio past someone who is more qualified to answer the question.

Someone having an anaphylactic reaction to the smoke would be really rare. But it would probably be the same risk as someone having a similar reaction to your bathroom soap or an air freshener. 

Using smoke just during open houses and given your very spacious layout with very tall ceilings, I think smoke would be a great idea.

I've had two experiences with smoke.  The first was when I shorted out the speaker leads on a Tsunami and I thought the whole engine was on fire.  The second is a MTH 0-6-0 that switches my cement plant.  I get a kick out of seeing it puff away for all of 3 minutes once or twice a week.  I have had no problem with oil residue,  On the other hand, there used to be a large three rail layout in the DC area.  The owner, Tony Lash, ran all of his MTH steam engines with smoke.  Even with three or four big exhaust fans going, the engines, even those equipped with rubber tires, would start slipping after four or five passes on the same grade.  Eventually, no trains could make it up those grades until they shut down the railroad and wiped the oil off the track.  I guess, if you really like smoke, that is the price that you have to pay.  

I do have two pieces of advice.

1. Don't serve peanut butter cookies at the open house.

2. I don't think a club beehive is a good investment.

Most of the AGHR kids like to run their locomotives with the smoke on. Most of the members keep the smoke turned off. Our building has pretty good air flow, so we usually don't see a big cloud of smoke and haven't experienced problems with residue on the tracks.

When there's a smoke unit capable of chucking out clag like this....

... I might think about fitting one in my RS3. 

So, just to make sure we're keeping this straight, there are at least 3 righteous groups:

1- those who think a prototypical feature (like smoke effects) is not prototypical; 

2 - those who think you must be a dummy if you run smoke effects because the vapor is very harmful to your layout and health; and

3 - those who will not run smoke effects unless they they are dramatically enhanced to basically smoke you out of your neighborhood.

And then you have those (those cursed low-brow hi-railers!) that appreciate the advancements and features and just enjoy their toy trains (yes, they are all toys). 

Just curious - does anyone else think groups 1-3 are taking their toys and a hobby just a wee bit too seriously? 

Tom M posted:

Someone having an anaphylactic reaction to the smoke would be really rare. But it would probably be the same risk as someone having a similar reaction to your bathroom soap or an air freshener. 

Using smoke just during open houses and given your very spacious layout with very tall ceilings, I think smoke would be a great idea.

It is why I gave a simple suggestion that they ask someone who is qualified, and someone who would be invested and put their butt on the line for the club if a problem did happen. I would not trust the "probably" responses from people responding on the internet.

christopher N&W posted:

............ ask someone who is qualified......

Hmmmm.........interesting concept. 

 I would not trust the "probably" responses from people responding on the internet.

Seems reasonable.

 

Just curious - does anyone else think groups 1-3 are taking their toys and a hobby just a wee bit too seriously? 

All are legitimate but I enjoy the hobby more than anyone else. 

1- those who think a prototypical feature (like smoke effects) is not prototypical; 

It would help if the so-called prototypical feature actually looked even remotely prototypical.  It fails on that account.  I suspect that it could be made to look more prototypical at some cost. 

As for keeping it straight and accounting, tax season is over.......but then life is pain.  Anybody who says differently is selling something.

mwb posted:

1- those who think a prototypical feature (like smoke effects) is not prototypical; 

It would help if the so-called prototypical feature actually looked even remotely prototypical.  It fails on that account.  I suspect that it could be made to look more prototypical at some cost. 

As for keeping it straight and accounting, tax season is over.......but then life is pain.  Anybody who says differently is selling something.

Yup, lots of people beat that same, in a sense, drone drum.  Curious, how do you and everyone else who repeats this same canned position cope in your day-to-day life with the following horrors:

- the coal in your toys is never actually used or depletes?

- the fire box and ash pan glow are not at all realistic?  Or if your locomotive doesn't have these features, the fact that this too is totally unrealistic? 

- Do you have people at the controls?  If not, then who is running your toy train- a ghost?  If you do, the fact that those little painted figures aren't very realistic in terms of appearance or function (they don't  actually mimic any actual motion of the real guy)? 

- the fact that your toys tremor as they traverse turnouts in an unrealistic way?

- the deep and pronounced sounds emitting from operation (e.g. train clickety clack or repetitive banging as the train rolls down the rails) is not present or not at all realistic?

- the fact that the people on your layout never move, age, or make a sound? And that these folks are very unrealistic looking?  The scenery trees never grow, shed, change colors?  Real snow and/or rain never fall? 

- there isn't any real purpose to operation of your pike, as there is no real product being transported and no revenue is ever seen?

- unless you are modeling an incredibly short branch line, the distance between points is likely not at all realistic, as most layouts mimic many hundreds of miles all in 15-100 real-life feet.

In case it isn't obvious, this is all meant to be tongue-in-cheek!  

Peter

In case it isn't obvious, this is all meant to be tongue-in-cheek!  

Peter

 

 

Peter,

The answer is obvious. We use our imagination. Clearly, those who NEED all of the gimmicks have none.

Also, sometimes something that isn't modeled well can actually be more of a distraction in the end. Sometimes those things should be left out.