Passenger car lighting flicker

Convert to LED lights. There's plenty in here can tell you how and cost, but it's not a lot

Check out this thread.

With traditional lamps capacitors don't generally solve this problem because they have to be quite large, hence expensive, in order to impact flickering significantly.

As Bill has pointed out LED lamps are a typical solution, but they will still flicker unless you employ a special LED driver circuit for each car.  If this circuit is designed correctly then there will be no flicker.

For one example check out @gunrunnerjohn's LED driver, from forum sponsor Henning's.  It works quite well.

Mike

With roller-driven lighting, you will ALWAYS get some type of flickering unless you have capacitors to fill in the miniscule power gaps. Modern LED lighting systems do a few things that make them better overall:

• The lighting is constant, switching on as soon as there's track power.
• Most of the LED circuits contain capacitors to stabilize the voltage to the LEDs.
• They draw less current than light bulbs.
• They run cooler than light bulbs so there's no risk of warping/melting the passenger car body.
• They last a VERY long time. Estimates vary from 10-20 years depending on usage.

The other alternative is using batteries. I had a schematic somewhere on doing this but I'd have to search for it. This is how car lighting was done in "the old days" and there are a couple of positives to this option:

• The lights stay on while the train is stopped. The down side is they'll be on if there's a short, but since the cars are isolated they won't be impacted.
• They draw no track power.
• It's not really that hard to do. Your battery pack goes in the baggage car and you install jumper plugs between cars to light them up. You can rig the baggage car to charge the batteries with a little more work.

Hope this helps some.

John M, have you tried oiling the rollers?  A drop on each end of the roller works for me.  I use ordinary light oil a without a problem (lights may flicker briefly until the oil works in), but you may want to choose an oil made specifically for electrical applications.  This is a cheap, easy fix.

John

I appreciate everyone's responses!

It seems like the consensus is to change to LED lights, which can then allow me to add a capacitor if I wanted. I have no doubt this is the best solution, but it is also likely the most expensive, haha. Regardless, it is something to consider and I might end up doing it, despite the cost.

In the short term, I suppose the option of adding a 2nd pickup roller to the cars that only have 1 would greatly help with the flickering. I see that the roller assembly is a separate part entirely, which would make installing new ones very simple. (Lionel part 9050-150)

Now I just have to find a way to get 6 of these up here in Canada without breaking the bank.

@VonFrank posted:

I have a set of 9 of these lionel plastic passenger cars.

https://image.invaluable.com/h...5729251_original.jpg

They are simple and fairly cheap, but I've painted and numbered them all to match the liveries of my ABA F-units and they look fantastic. The only problem I have with them now, is the constant flickering of the lights.

To get the obvious out of the way:

- My track is clean. I've tested this many times on segments of track that have just been cleaned. The flicker is slightly reduced, but is still an issue.

-The wheels and pickup rollers are also clean. I recently cleaned the wheels on all of my rolling stock, including these passenger cars.

So my question is: Can I add something to the cars to prevent the flicker? Obviously a second pickup roller on the blank truck would be one possible solution, but 3 of the 9 cars actually have a 2nd roller already, and they still flicker (just not nearly as bad).

I've seen reference online to terms such as "always on lights" or "keep alive lights", but I don't know exactly what they entail, how costly it is, or if there is a simpler solution for an O-Gauge layout running DCS.

Would some kind of capacitor work? How about a tiny rechargeable battery?

Any input would be appreciated! 😁

The real issue is Lionel used a crap pickup roller that by design causes the lights to flicker. See if you can find a modern version with real spring pressure and I bet the issue goes away.

I had a discussion recently with a fellow model railroader about flickering passenger train car lights.

We concluded that such flickering can be prototypical and decided to leave well enough alone. Arnold

@VonFrank posted:

So my question is: Can I add something to the cars to prevent the flicker?

One other not-too-difficult-or-expensive option: for about a dollar each, you could add a cheap AC-to-DC converter board, which has a pretty big smoothing capacitor that would pretty much smooth out most of the flickers from intermittent track contact. To *really* close the loop and totally eliminate the flicker, convert the bulb to an LED -- the LED's small draw will lower the demand on the capacitor and keep the light on during longer interruptions.

I suspect you could buy all the bits you'll need in bulk for less than $3 per car. If you're interested, I can look up links to parts I've used for other projects (they should do for this purpose as well). Good luck!

@Steve Tyler posted:

One other not-too-difficult-or-expensive option: for about a dollar each, you could add a cheap AC-to-DC converter board, which has a pretty big smoothing capacitor that would pretty much smooth out most of the flickers from intermittent track contact. To *really* close the loop and totally eliminate the flicker, convert the bulb to an LED -- the LED's small draw will lower the demand on the capacitor and keep the light on during longer interruptions.

I suspect you could buy all the bits you'll need in bulk for less than $3 per car. If you're interested, I can look up links to parts I've used for other projects (they should do for this purpose as well). Good luck!

Actually, if it still has incandescent bulbs, the AC-to-DC converter will do nothing, even with a big cap.

Hi here is the forum for led conversions!

LED conversion kit for MTH passenger cars | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Alan

Another solution would be to run a wire connecting all the pickups together. John's module is still the best answer, along with LED strips.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, if it still has incandescent bulbs, the AC-to-DC converter will do nothing, even with a big cap.

I disagree. I used two of those boards on my layout to smooth the previously-intermittent activation contacts, each wired to power both the solenoid of a crossing gate and a sound module -- both installations markedly reduced the "stutter" in both the gate action and the sound output. I can't imagine the draw of an incandescent bub would be markedly more than the solenoid and the sound module and thus be able to discharge the capacitor more quickly. If I get time, I'll experiment with one of the AC to DC boards and a crossing flasher, to see if it makes much difference and post the results.

@Steve Tyler posted:

I disagree. I used two of those boards on my layout to smooth the previously-intermittent activation contacts, each wired to power both the solenoid of a crossing gate and a sound module -- both installations markedly reduced the "stutter" in both the gate action and the sound output. I can't imagine the draw of an incandescent bub would be markedly more than the solenoid and the sound module and thus be able to discharge the capacitor more quickly. If I get time, I'll experiment with one of the AC to DC boards and a crossing flasher, to see if it makes much difference and post the results.

Well, I played around with things this afternoon, and the results were pretty much what I expected:

- First, I checked the size of the on-board smoothing capacitor, and it turned out to be 2,200 microFarads -- as I had remembered, a whopping big capacity.

- For a load, I used one small incandescent bulb in an old Marx crossing flasher, with an E-10 base like the bulbs used in my Marx Santa Fe passenger cars.

- The DC output voltage of the board is adjustable (I had previously set it at 12 VDC), while the AC input was provided by a small Lionel transformer, with throttle set at about half.

- I first simulated the OP's problem by rapidly making intermittent contact between the transformer leads and the terminals on the crossing flasher, and got the expected pattern of significant and easily visible dimming of the bulb with each interruption.

- I then substituted an LED with pre-installed current limiting resistor (designed for accessory AC voltages), and got the same pattern of dimming -- if anything, the dimming and brightening was even more pronounced, since the LED was much quicker to 'warm up' to full brightness when voltage was applied, and quicker to dim when power was removed.

- I then inserted the converter board between the transformer and the incandescent bulb in the flasher, and repeated the process. While there was notable dimming when power was interrupted, the capacitor did extend the time it took the bulb to go completely dark after AC power to the board was interrupted from a small fraction of a second to about half a second, enough to noticeably buffer transient interruptions IMHO.

- I then tried the same thing with the LED, and found the capacitor's buffering to be *much* more effective. While the interruptions of AC power produced noticeable flickering, the LED pretty much stayed lit constantly. I found it took the LED about three seconds to fully discharge the capacitor, smoothly dimming in a linear fashion, as compared to the roughly half-second the incandescent bulb took to go dark.

My conclusion is that inserting an inexpensive small board between each car's track pickup and an OEM-type incandescent bulb would significantly reduce the flicker the OP was experiencing. Further, if the incandescent bulb is also replaced with a track-voltage-capable LED, the problem would be further reduced and IMHO virtually eliminated. As someone else noted, *some* flickering is consistent with the prototypical experience, and IMHO it would not be worth taking further possible measures like adding on-board battery power. YMMV . . .

A single bulb isn't much of a test, I don't know of any passenger car that has a single bulb.

If you're going to the trouble of opening up the cars, I'd suggest you go for the full LED upgrade, there will be no flicker at all, you'll have intensity adjustment, DCS compatibility, and much more even lighting.

Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

A single bulb isn't much of a test, I don't know of any passenger car that has a single bulb.

If you're going to the trouble of opening up the cars, I'd suggest you go for the full LED upgrade, there will be no flicker at all, you'll have intensity adjustment, DCS compatibility, and much more even lighting.

Passenger Car LED Lighting Kit

Say what? Granted, I'm in a bit of a backwater in the hobby, running mostly vintage Marx O scale hardware, but *all* of my passenger cars have a single bulb, and I've never seen one with more than one. FWIW, you'd still get some buffering effect with multiple bulbs, and if you added more capacitance across the DC output, you could add enough to the buffering to achieve the desired result, even with more bulbs.

I have no problem with the LED upgrade suggestion, but if anything, I predict that just substituting LEDs would make the problem worse, since IME the brightness of LEDs much more obviously follow the transient interruption of track power, unless they have some sort of on-board buffering, which would essentially be exactly what I suggested. In the alternative, if you can add a big capacitor to a DC supply feeding the LEDs, you could achieve the same buffering effect.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Say what? Granted, I'm in a bit of a backwater in the hobby, running mostly vintage Marx O scale hardware, but *all* of my passenger cars have a single bulb, and I've never seen one with more than one.

I'm the opposite, I've never seen a passenger car with only one bulb, and I can assure you the OP's car has two bulbs. Many cars have more bulbs, especially the larger cars.  Most MTH 18" cars have five or six bulbs stock.  I confess, I haven't worked on a Marx passenger car...

@Steve Tyler posted:

I have no problem with the LED upgrade suggestion, but if anything, I predict that just substituting LEDs would make the problem worse, since IME the brightness of LEDs much more obviously follow the transient interruption of track power, unless they have some sort of on-board buffering, which would essentially be exactly what I suggested. In the alternative, if you can add a big capacitor to a DC supply feeding the LEDs, you could achieve the same buffering effect.

You obviously didn't follow the link.  My LED driver has been used in at least several thousand passenger car upgrades, and nobody complains about LED flicker coming from a while strip of LED's.  I've personally upgraded at least fifty of my own passenger cars and several hundred customer's cars.

You miss a very important point with LED's.  I light an 18" passenger car with 21 or 24 individual LED's, but the whole string draws around 20-25ma for a nicely lighted car.  The lighting is FAR more even than one or two bulbs as well.  And no, they don't flicker at all.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm the opposite, I've never seen a passenger car with only one bulb, and I can assure you the OP's car has two bulbs. Many cars have more bulbs, especially the larger cars.  Most MTH 18" cars have five or six bulbs stock.  I confess, I haven't worked on a Marx passenger car...

You obviously didn't follow the link.  My LED driver has been used in at least several thousand passenger car upgrades, and nobody complains about LED flicker coming from a while strip of LED's.  I've personally upgraded at least fifty of my own passenger cars and several hundred customer's cars.

You miss a very important point with LED's.  I light an 18" passenger car with 21 or 24 individual LED's, but the whole string draws around 20-25ma for a nicely lighted car.  The lighting is FAR more even than one or two bulbs as well.  And no, they don't flicker at all.

Fair enough, since I have no personal experience with passenger cars other than Marx. I stand by my comments, though, that even with more bulbs and more draw, using an AC to DC board with an extra capacitor would still reduce the flickering.

FWIW, I had no prior need to follow the link, since I was not intending to comment on your kit. When I did, I found that, per the posted description, your kit *adds capacitance* in exactly the same manner as do the cheap boards I suggested, hence no flicker. However, based on my experiences and experiments, I *guarantee* that any un-buffered LEDs will exhibit *more* flickering than an equivalent incandescent bulb, since they do not have to heat up and cool down like incandescent bulbs (which in effect provides a sort of built-in 'thermal buffering' for incandescent bulbs). And, at less than two bucks apiece for the boards I'm talking about, my DIY solution is a bit more cost effective than the $42 price for each of your recommended LED kits, albeit with fewer bells and whistles. I'm sure your kit is worth it, especially for the longer cars, but if all you really want to do is reduce the flickering, I stand by my suggestions.

Steve, I don't have a hound in this hunt so to speak, but have another question and don't want to sidetrack this discussion. Could you contact me via the email in my profile?

@Steve Tyler posted:

I *guarantee* that any un-buffered LEDs will exhibit *more* flickering than an equivalent incandescent bulb, since they do not have to heat up and cool down like incandescent bulbs (which in effect provides a sort of built-in 'thermal buffering' for incandescent bulbs).

100% in agreement with this statement, bare LED's flicker like mad with no capacitance to buffer them!

@Steve Tyler posted:

And, at less than two bucks apiece for the boards I'm talking about, my DIY solution is a bit more cost effective than the $42 price for each of your recommended LED kits, albeit with fewer bells and whistles. I'm sure your kit is worth it, especially for the longer cars, but if all you really want to do is reduce the flickering, I stand by my suggestions.

Well, the kits are for two cars.   Also, you can do it cheaper with just the regulators and LED strips as long as you don't mind soldering.  The kits are designed to be solderless.

I am in no way arguing with your solution, just some specifics.  In point of fact, I have posted my LED lighting module design and even laid out a DIY board for people here.  If you build your own board with off-shore components, you can have my module for a couple bucks and reap all the benefits I speak of for the commercial module.

Here's the thread with all the details of the DIY module: GRJ's Original DIY Constant Current PAX Car Lighting Module Files

As you can see, there are tons of folks that  have made these and are using them.  This design is EXACTLY the same as my commercial version, I just made the commercial verison surface mount to reduce the size.

@ThatGuy posted:

The real issue is Lionel used a crap pickup roller that by design causes the lights to flicker. See if you can find a modern version with real spring pressure and I bet the issue goes away.

Since 1971 and continuing with new production today... virtually the exact same part.

@VonFrank posted:

In the short term, I suppose the option of adding a 2nd pickup roller to the cars that only have 1 would greatly help with the flickering. I see that the roller assembly is a separate part entirely, which would make installing new ones very simple. (Lionel part 9050-150)

Lionel really cheapened out by using only one of these per passenger car starting in 1973 (cabooses too in '71). What's worse, starting with those 1973 Milwaukee cars, the roller was on one truck and the axle wiper on the other! So close!

Ironically, when production moved to China(with the Polar Express etal.), they now all have 2 of the 9050-150 assemblies and my observation has been they are substantially flicker-free(same with the chinese production N5c starter set cabooses - PRR Flyer, eg.).

With two assemblies for each car now, when I see one of the cars w/ flickering bulbs, it's invariably because there is a broken wire to one of the trucks.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Also, you can do it cheaper with just the regulators and LED strips as long as you don't mind soldering.  The kits are designed to be solderless.

I am in no way arguing with your solution, just some specifics.  In point of fact, I have posted my LED lighting module design and even laid out a DIY board for people here.  If you build your own board with off-shore components, you can have my module for a couple bucks and reap all the benefits I speak of for the commercial module.

Fair enough, though I should point out that the boards I referenced also have solderless connections, and can, I believe, be simply inserted between the track pickup and the light socket, with a connection to ground. Here's a pic:

Also, while I haven't thoroughly dissected either your DIY board or the ones I've used, they seem functionally identical (both accept track or accessory voltage AC, and output an adjustable and stablized DC voltage), except the plan for your board calls for a 470 microfarad smoothing capacitor, while the boards I've used have a much larger 2,200 microfarad capacitor. AFAICS, it should work just as well for this issue, perhaps a bit better, at a ridiculously low cost. Don't get me wrong -- both your LED conversion kit and the DIY version plans are quite nice options and great projects with a lot of advanced features, but for a quick and dirty (and cheap!) solution to a simple problem, I don't see how you can do much better than the boards I suggested. (Well, "quick" only if you can ignore the two week to two month "slow boat" shipping time from China! 😕)

@Steve Tyler posted:

Fair enough, though I should point out that the boards I referenced also have solderless connections, and can, I believe, be simply inserted between the track pickup and the light socket, with a connection to ground. Here's a pic:

Steve,

I just looked those up on AliExpress and they appear to be 50mm long.   Don't you find the size a problem?

John

@Craftech posted:

I just looked those up on AliExpress and they appear to be 50mm long.   Don't you find the size a problem?

Well, like I said a few posts ago, I've only personally used them on crossing guard installations, and in those instances I mounted them below the layout where size was not an issue. However, having opened up each of my Marx passenger cars, I'm sure I could easily secure one between the pickup truck and the center-mounted light socket. Whether there'd be room in another brand car without a lot of fiddlin' is certainly an open question, I guess, but my guess is that most O gauge rolling stock would offer enough room somewhere. The only problem I might anticipate would be if you have clear windows and a detailed interior, leaving you with no surplus interior room at all for the board, without blocking out or removing some of that detail.

@Steve Tyler posted:

The only problem I might anticipate would be if you have clear windows and a detailed interior, leaving you with no surplus interior room at all for the board, without blocking out or removing some of that detail.

Yes

John

@Craftech posted:

Steve,

I just looked those up on AliExpress and they appear to be 50mm long.   Don't you find the size a problem?

John

If you’re using the car’s stock incandescents, why would you bother with a regulator module? There’s no need to reduce the voltage.

If you just want to add some capacitance a bridge rectifier and cap would be enough, though the cap would have to tolerate the full rectified track voltage.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Fair enough, though I should point out that the boards I referenced also have solderless connections, and can, I believe, be simply inserted between the track pickup and the light socket, with a connection to ground. Here's a pic:

I hasten to point out that it's very easy to install .1" spacing connectors on my DIY board if you are so inclined.

@Steve Tyler posted:

Also, while I haven't thoroughly dissected either your DIY board or the ones I've used, they seem functionally identical (both accept track or accessory voltage AC, and output an adjustable and stablized DC voltage), except the plan for your board calls for a 470 microfarad smoothing capacitor, while the boards I've used have a much larger 2,200 microfarad capacitor. AFAICS, it should work just as well for this issue, perhaps a bit better, at a ridiculously low cost. Don't get me wrong -- both your LED conversion kit and the DIY version plans are quite nice options and great projects with a lot of advanced features, but for a quick and dirty (and cheap!) solution to a simple problem, I don't see how you can do much better than the boards I suggested. (Well, "quick" only if you can ignore the two week to two month "slow boat" shipping time from China! 😕)

When you're doing cars with full interiors, it's pretty hard to find a spot for board the size of that regulator.  As for the size of the cap, it's sized for the job.  Since lighting a full length car properly with LED strips really only takes 25-30 milliamps, there's no need for either a larger cap or a higher current output, that capability is all wasted.  My lighting module is also a constant current design, that was actually done for a reason.  It allows much finer control of intensity as the intensity control is the full travel of the pot.  Another fine point, if you happen to run DCS equipment, is my lighting module won't kill the DCS signal, you have to add an inductor to that module to correct that issue.

I will certainly yield one point, I've never even considered trying to light incandescent bulbs with my lighting modules.  In point of fact, they were specifically designed to use LED's, that was the whole point.  Since you can cut your power use to less than 10% with LED lighting, and get better lighting to boot, that was my target.  While it might not matter with a Marx car with one bulb, try pulling a long string of scale passenger cars with their incandescent lighting, they consume amps of power, typically each car is drawing close to half an amp, and double-deck cars even more!  If you're running multiple trains on a layout, getting two such power hogs on one power district is usually a problem.

I have no quibble with the larger AC-DC modules, I have a drawer full of them here.  I use them where appropriate, I just don't see most passenger car lighting jobs as a good fit.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

When you're doing cars with full interiors, it's pretty hard to find a spot for board the size of that regulator.  As for the size of the cap, it's sized for the job.  Since lighting a full length car properly with LED strips really only takes 25-30 milliamps, there's no need for either a larger cap or a higher current output, that capability is all wasted.  My lighting module is also a constant current design, that was actually done for a reason.  It allows much finer control of intensity as the intensity control is the full travel of the pot.  Another fine point, if you happen to run DCS equipment, is my lighting module won't kill the DCS signal, you have to add an inductor to that module to correct that issue.

I will certainly yield one point, I've never even considered trying to light incandescent bulbs with my lighting modules.  In point of fact, they were specifically designed to use LED's, that was the whole point.  Since you can cut your power use to less than 10% with LED lighting, and get better lighting to boot, that was my target.  While it might not matter with a Marx car with one bulb, try pulling a long string of scale passenger cars with their incandescent lighting, they consume amps of power, typically each car is drawing close to half an amp, and double-deck cars even more!  If you're running multiple trains on a layout, getting two such power hogs on one power district is usually a problem.

I have no quibble with the larger AC-DC modules, I have a drawer full of them here.  I use them where appropriate, I just don't see most passenger car lighting jobs as a good fit.

Well, I think we're pretty much on the same page, GRJ. My suggestion was in part formed by my experience with Marx passenger cars, which have a single bulb illuminating celluloid strips inside the window openings, leaving plenty of room inside to locate a board of the type I mentioned. While the DIY version of your board seems to be of roughly the same size and thus be subject to the same issue, I'm assuming the kit has a much more compact board -- you mentioned surface mount components -- and would be easier to fit.

My main concern was that you said my suggestion would *not* work with an incandescent bulb. We're in complete agreement that *any* buffering will work better with low-draw LEDs than with incandescent bulbs, but my tinkering has confirmed that the board will in fact reduce the flickering effect somewhat even with incandescent lighting. You are absolutely correct that the capacitor on your board is more than adequate for use with LEDs, but IMHO would be significantly less effective  when buffering for incandescent lighting, a purpose you say you did not consider. Being in the "primitive" post-war equipment era in my modeling, I had not even considered possible effects on control systems, but you raise some possible valid concerns.

So, are we good to pass on to other issues? 😜

Yep, I think we in general agreement.

One small point, the DIY board is not nearly 1" x 2", it's really 1.1" x .75".

@Professor Chaos posted:

If you’re using the car’s stock incandescents, why would you bother with a regulator module? There’s no need to reduce the voltage.

If you just want to add some capacitance a bridge rectifier and cap would be enough, though the cap would have to tolerate the full rectified track voltage.

Fair enough, but I doubt you could source and fabricate the components to do so as cheaply as the boards I mention, or be as 'plug and play.' Also, the board allows you to adjust and set a constant brightness largely independent of track voltage or throttle setting. YMMV . . .

ALL of my 644X series Passenger Cars have ONLY 1 single bulb per car.

And they have only a single pickup - I was with the OP thinking I might add a second pickup to reduce not eliminate the flickering.

As was mentioned SOME Flickering is prototypical.

Every train I ever ridden on from Commuter trains to Subways and AmTrack all have had the lights flicker while in motion.

Passenger cars on my pike have non-flickering lights!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Passenger cars on my pike have non-flickering lights!

Hmm. Your "pike." What's this "pike?" Are you referring to the New Jersey Turnpike, Pike's Peak, or what? 🤔

I don’t know if this was suggested. Couldn’t wade through all the posts. But this is a video of my same 8 car set with no flickering. I used one drop of Mobil One synthetic motor oil to lubricate the rollers. Try it and see what happens.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

...this is a video of my same 8 car set with no flickering. I used one drop of Mobil One synthetic motor oil to lubricate the rollers.

With an additional collector assembly, they won't flicker over switches or crossings either.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Hmm. Your "pike." What's this "pike?" Are you referring to the New Jersey Turnpike, Pike's Peak, or what? 🤔

I think we need a glossary for newbies.

A pike is an old-fashioned word for a layout, from the early days of model railroading.  Seldom heard now-a-days but it still applies, at least as part of nostalgia.

You may already know this, but I can't tell if you're joking or serious.

For the sake of any true newbies that may stumble across this thread I've entered this post.

Mike

Mike: I'm really no newbie and was joking, of course. "Pike" has several different meanings. 😉

Of course.

M.

@gunrunnerjohn, from the Henning's site it looks like your full lighting kit operates at 12-19V, while the regulator only operates at 5-19.  So if running conventional the full kit isn't the right choice, correct?

Thanks, Don