Petruzzo Collection Stout Auction

Looks like some really nice stuff.  Never participated with Stout auctions or with tinplate.  How high do the prices go?

Page  10   number   2250  gives you a good indication this stuff, as pretty as

is, is going thru the roof   look at the Black Crackle, as well

Terry: 

Heck, it's a Blue Comet.  I saw one on eBay, a couple of years ago, go for $13K.  Talk about crazy money!

Wait till you get the bill for packing and shipping! They know how to charge.

Gunny

I initially avoided the auction houses because I was afraid of the high prices.  But when I finally made the leap, I was very pleasantly surprised.  You have to remember, the collections that find their way to one of these high-end auction houses are generally far higher quality merchandise than commonly appears on ebay or at train meets.  I have purchased some very nice trains from Stout, for what I thought were quite reasonable prices.

That said, Frank Petruzzo was well known as having one of the best collections of Classic Era Lionel Standard Gauge in the world.  He was constantly upgrading, finding better versions of the trains he had.  He had several Blue Comet sets, for example, some of them extremely rare.  

So this may not be a sale for finding bargains, but rather for seeing some of the best examples that exist of these old trains.

I also do not shy away from the major auction houses. They are generally more tuned into condition and rarity. Like Hojack said, they also get some high quality collections... it's in their best interest to offer these items both for monetary gain but also for their reputation moving forward. High quality trains will always have a place in the marketplace, these being C8 or better. And yes, the prices are far more than an C5-C6 piece, but the supply is greater in the C5-C6 category. For those looking for certain trains, these auctions are usually the best option as these pieces do not show up on the open market often.

I have both bought and sold from Stout and they have treated me very well. And as far as shipping costs, they have gone up tremendously everywhere so I don't think it is too relevant. I don't mind paying the extra cost for packaging as they do a fabulous job and all my purchases have arrived safely.

ARNO

TM has as of 9/24 uploaded the Petruzzo segment of GTTL here for those interested:

I can't believe it's been 20 years since Frank passed. I had been wondering what happened to the collection, I thought it had been liquidated years ago.

Great video of a Truly amazing collection and fascinating man. Thanks for posting, Rob.

Thanks for taking the time to post the video Rob.  It is really well done and interesting.

Is this the entire collection at the Auction or have many of the rarest items been sold off in the last 20 years?

The ENTIRE collection has been kept intact until this auction. The train room was basically untouched for the last twenty years. The Purple comet, coal train, etc. is all here. This auction will be in two parts. So a great auction now and another in the early part of 2015.

Any pre auction estimates of what a collection of this size and quality might sell for?

The online catalog linked in the first post shows absent bidding has started enthusiastically. Keep checking it for updates.

I don't think their shipping is inexpensive but I will say they do a good job and I haven't had anything arrive broken.

I do have a problem with the use of the phrase "matching original set".  This would suggest that the set is exactly as it came from Lionel.  The problem is that Frank would take parts off of different cars and put them on the sets he already had to upgrade the set.  Or he would buy entire sets and swap out a car to improve the quality of his set.  He says in the video that he went through at least 50 state sets to come up with the 11 sets he had.  I don't care that he did this but I don't think this qualifies as an original matching set.  Maybe I'm too picky about the descriptions though.

John.

I agree with you John. I have a hard time calling them original sets... yes, they are original, but they are still pieces from different sets. Ultimately, the result is stunning, but I am a bit of a purist when it comes to history. It's like the car guys saying their cars are 100% original... only been painted once. How is that original?

ARNO

John and Arno, you both offer a good point, but those words are just descriptions.  Consider that these trains represent the BEST OF THE  BEST.  I think, given that, a few words, in a description on an auction site, make it rather moot.

Frank Petruzzo was the ultimate purist in Standard Gauge collecting. Over the years I've heard many estimates as to what his collection is worth. His wall of Blue Comets alone is worth a small fortune. I must admire his widow for her "sealing" their basement. She did this out of her love for her husband.

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Whats the story on that and how long after the posted video was made did Frank pass away, he did not appear that old in the video.

I vividly remember TM's documentary on Frank's extensive collection. Everything from the prototype green State set, the purple-toned Blue Comet set, the 402 with no openings in the frame, rare paint samples, every collectible variation of each standard gauge accessory. His collection is probably the finest of Lionel standard gauge. It'll be extremely interesting to see how much his pieces will go, as these pieces rarely come up on the market, especially these days.

I guess it's even more hard to believe considering TM's video was taken in 1993.

That was my thinking EXACTLY.    Gives us all pause to think how fragile our time here really can be.

David

From the Stout website

Frank succumbed to heart disease and diabetes complications in 1994, but his memory lives on through his collection; the friendships he made; his dedication to the hobby; his commitment to variations, original condition and rarity; and his fascination with the quirky - for example, the famous "Petruzzo Coal Train". Frank's wife, Shirley, shared his passion and fittingly his entire collection has remained on display, intact and untouched for 20 years.

Couple of questions, 

I would never view, the make up of this auction, had it not been for the posting, of the video.  Now I would not mind just seeing a small set, well ( in my house), 

   1) does this Standard gauge run on current size " O " track?

   2) Is there anybody, that might be able to think out what you feel like the

       Lower end, sets, might go: Example:  the Macys ( engine, and 2-3 cars),

       (the reason I said low end, there are not any racing pre-auction bids much)

     KINDA THINKING,  RON or Steve MIGHT HAVE SOME INPUT MAYBE

 Thanks Rob for posting the video.

 and 1 caution on the actions of questioning business practices.  I run a business, as do many on the forum.  Any kind of public O, what do you say  degrading, might want to

be carried out via phone call or private email, with ownership-- and thats all I have to say about that.

  I dont think I will succeed on any bids, but got 2 weeks to think!

"Standard Gauge" is 3 rail, but 2.125" gauge. Oddly, it was markedly anything BUT "standard" when it was introduced, as it differed from anything else offered at the time.

Is the Standard Guage collectors market still as strong as it was 20 years ago or have the number of serious collectors declined, on that note will this collection sell for more today than it would have back then. Any thoughts?

According to my understanding, the market for run of the mill standard gauge trains has softened more than the market for run of the mill postwar.

But from what I see, the market for high end, quality items is stronger than ever.

C W,

I'd like to add my three cents. 

For those who buy Std Gauge to restore and/or run the market is not as soft as it was a few years ago. The prices are getting on the stupid side. 

The prices for the better items is starting to do the same. The last piece I bought was a over priced. I searched almost five years and was happy to pay.

The collector grade items are almost beyond reach.

God Bless,

"Pappy"

I see a pretty strong market for SG these days. I respectfully disagree with Pappy and feel that average condition SG trains have become much more affordable. You can buy 200 series cars for less than $100 now which hasn't been the case for plenty of years. To play off the real estate market; condition, condition and condition. Condition will always sell. High quality SG trains have escalated in the last bunch of years. Just check out some of the recent auctions with high quality SG trains: The Chuck Brasher collection (Stout 1/26/13), The Cole Gibbs collection (Stout 4/6/13) and the Terry Johnson collection (Stout 1/25/14). There are others from other auction houses, but these are the ones I had on hand. There are lots of different people bidding to get these items.

I feel the Petruzzo collection will bring far more now than it would have 20 years ago. The fact that it is available to more people via internet bidding is just one factor.

And sorry TGP, the Macy's set is not a low-cost option. It is one of the more prized sets to acquire. I would spend a little time educating yourself on the wonderful world of Standard Gauge trains before spending your hard earned cash. There are plenty of chances to steal a deal at this auction, but I doubt it will be the Macy's Special (I'm pulling for ya though).

I am looking forward to this auction and will be following it live (another thing we couldn't do 20 years ago), but I will refrain from bidding.

ARNO

ARNO,

I respectfully disagree with you . It's a matter of interpretation of grading standards. What you consider average might be a C-4/5 to me. Most items I see on the market today are C-6 at best (very best). Call me picky and I must agree. My collection is 1910-1934 Lionel Std Gauge boxed sets.

The 200 series cars you mention are just average pieces. Granted the market today is better than a few years ago. The ones I mentioned are paying stupid prices for 10 and 100 series pieces. You are a educated collector and I respect that. A Std Gauge collector today must never stop learning. While my layouts and trains are gone, I still enjoy the learning process.

God's Blessings,

"Pappy"

Thanks Pappy, your opinion is well respected by me. I have noticed a lot more "runner" grade SG trains available at decent prices. I think the market years ago was led to believe there were not not many of these trains out there and people bought what the could regardless of condition. That holds true in the Postwar world as well. Nowadays, that is no longer the case. This thing called the internet (love it or hate it) has opened up the door to many more trains than any of us imagined. Thus, the plethora of lower grade (I like calling them 'loved') SG trains. It's a good thing and has opened the door for many new collectors/operators in SG who thought they were out-priced of the market.

Of course there is the case where some people pay too much for a train because they just have to have it. That is not just true today, but has been going on forever, I don't see that changing.

Now, while I don't actively collect Lionel SG trains, I am still well versed in the market as Lionel SG was the root of my obsession. And it IS an obsession!

ARNO

PS- Pappy, I'd love to see your collection sometime.

The BEST thing a widow of a collector can do is refrain from instant sale or auction.  She should turn away "friends" trying to CHERRY PICK her husband's trains.  While she savors perhaps her life friend's MOST LOVING ENDEAVOR, she can wean herself from the emotions of letting go, and carefully select a reputable auction house to take care of the business end.  Mrs. Petruzzo has my ultimate respect for showing her last act of love towards her friend and lover.  HATS OFF For KEEPING HIS TRAINS INTACT!!!

I KNO WHAT I AM BUYING!!!

I am not at all tuned into the auction scene, but I recognize some of these names -- most notably Chuck Brasher from a TM video segment on Standard Gauge (back in the early 90's perhaps?).  I'm gonna guess that Chuck Brasher would now be in his mid-70's.  Just makes me wonder who -- if anyone -- is in their 40's and 50's today amassing similar size Standard Gauge "collections" as Brasher and Petruzzo did in their day.  Or are these collections being scattered about to the 4 winds now?  A little here... a little there.

At 55, I'm brand spankin' new to the Standard Gauge world.  But I could never realistically envision having a collection the size of these well-known toy train enthusiasts.    Of course in my case, I still have O-Gauge roots tugging at my interests as well.  

David

Chuck Stone and Chuck Brasher of California have down-sized at Auction houses, only to reappear at these Auctions, buying the same types of items they sold at lower prices...selling at venues such as York for profit.  Reminds me of a thread on here about MIDDLEMEN! 

The Chuck Brasher collection (Stout 1/26/13) was a sell off of his duplicates and other misc. items. Chuck collects only the best of the very best. Anyone who has ever had the privilege of viewing his collection will come away somewhat awe struck.

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Been to Brasher's twice in last 3 years...what he sells or sold was not the point of my post.  Chuck Brasher is somewhat unique in that there are ZERO reproduction parts or trains under his roof!

That's what I've heard as well.  But honestly, as a Standard Gauge newbie, that doesn't interest me in the slightest.  I'm more than content to build my own world of toy trains with items that are more reasonably priced -- if we can call today's reproductions "reasonably priced".  

I plan to channel $$$ toward the layout environment and scenic features rather than pay $10K-$20K (or more) for an individual train set.  Nothing wrong with that if you can do it.  I'd just prefer to do what I know is more aligned with my financial means -- coming at this from an operator's perspective rather than for the sake of "building a collection" at all costs to own some elusive piece.  Toy trains moving about in a hi-rail environment is my plan.   Whether it's a rare variation or as common as the next isn't my concern.

I may check in on this auction to see what's going on, but these auction houses wouldn't have a business if they relied on me to bid.  

David