Photos of New 2013 Lionel Legacy Diesels!

I'm not being argumentative, Bob, believe me, but the paint color used on the new GP35 (and the GP30s) is wrong, I believe. I don't know what the engine is that's shown in your picture, because there was never any engine on the Rio Grande roster with the number 301 (and even the number font is incorrect)!

Incidentally, DRGW.net (the Rio Grande Modeling and Historical Society site) has the complete roster of all Rio Grande engines, and photos of each one. There is no No. 301 of anything (GP-35s were numbered 3029-3050, for example). By the way, they use the proper Rio Grande orange for some of the lettering at their website. The correct orange color used by the Rio Grande for most of the more modern diesels was called Aspen Gold, incidentally. 

Other photo sites can also be checked, including RailPictures.net. There are no Rio Grande engines painted anything like the Lionel GP35s, with one exception. The only possible explanation is that Lionel patterned their color, incorrectly, on a color used in a single instance called Kansas City Orange, which was a much darker shade of orange. However, that color is wrong for the GP35 (and the GP30s and most other RG diesels). Kansas City Orange was only used on the 23 former Conrail GP40s that the Rio Grande received in 1983 (engine nos. 3131-3153), which were repainted in Feb. 1984-Apr. 1985 by Mid America Car of Kansas City, contracted by the Rio Grande to repaint these 23 Conrail engines. I've included a photo of one of these ex-Conrail GP40s painted in Kansas City Orange. These were the only Rio Grande engines painted with this color.

Also below is another photo of the correct color Aspen Gold used by the Rio Grande.  Also, a photo of the UP Heritage Rio Grande unit, painted, of course, in the correct color!

Locomotives: DRGW 3153(GP40)			Author:  Don Spencer

UP 1989 - The Denver & Rio Grande Heritage SD70ACe
Photo by Nathan Zachman

Think that UP heritage is not painted actual DRGW color and that is well documented.

Also this DRGW was sent out for lease.  But best example I could find from the paint shop.  As you check the dates of pics, and in service dates, you can watch then age and color fade.

You can see the fade in the picture you posted.  The 3153 is very close to the lionel color that was painted on the GP35 and GP30.  Then the 3115 is somewhat later as evidenced.

The Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific interchanged (grain)with the DRG&W in Denver. The Rock purchased 34 GP35's new with Road numbers 300-333.

Taking into account the troubled times for the Rock from the late 50's through the mid-60's when the western routes were in re-organization, perhaps DRG&W bought a few. (i.e.#301)

Just a guess...

Yes, the 3153 is very close, but as I explained in the discussion above, that's because it is a GP40, and one of only 23 engines - all GP40s acquired from Conrail - that were ever painted that color (all done by a contractor in Kansas City). NONE of the GP35s, or GP30s, or any other Rio Grande engine was ever painted that color.

Why Lionel decided to use this oddball Kansas City Orange color on its GP35s and GP30s is a mystery. But it is definitely the wrong color. 

Not a mystery.  I have many pics on my wall here of the fresh orange, and they are wiothing a few years in inservice date. 

So how many Rio's do you have in your stable?  If you like them like I do, then you may have more in other scales.  There has been quite a consistancy of this color.  Also depends on if you want to model a long in service one.

Here's the roster of all Rio Grande GP35s, from the Rio Grande Modeling and Historical Society. Going through all the color photos of all the engines, none of them are painted like the Lionel version. Going through the GP30 roster, same thing (not to mention the Tunnel Motors, which Lionel also got incorrect). Also note the color used by the Historical Society in its website letters, the correct (and fresh) Rio Grande orange. Also check out the Floquil paint sample. Etc.

Looking at many, many Rio Grande photos, I have never seen any Rio Grande diesels the color of the new Lionel GP3s, except those 23 Conrail GP40s painted in Kansas City. Maybe I missed them.

Also attached is another photo of an actual Rio Grande GP35 showing the correct colors, as well as a photo of the Lionel SD50 from 1995. They nailed it pretty well on this engine. Here's also a photo of a Rio Grande GP30 with a GP35. Again, not anywhere close to the orange used on the Lionel GP35. Finally, a shot of an Atlas O Rio Grande Geep, again showing the correct orange, from a manufacturer that knows colors.

It's not a big deal, of course. Most people probably don't care that much. And if someone wants to pretend their Lionel GP35 is one of the ex-Conrail GP40s that was re-painted in Kansas City, that's great. And I might be wrong in several areas, as I frequently am! I read at one modeling site one commenter bemoaning "Why do the manufacturers have such a problem getting the Rio Grande orange correct?" Apparently it's not just a problem with Lionel. 

D&RGW EMD GP35 Roster

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D&RGW EMD GP35 Roster Unit Number Built To Frame Serial Notes   DRGW 3029 May-1964 Dec-1993 7727-1 29260 To OMLX 3029 on Jan-1995 To CEFX 3029 on Oct-1999 DRGW 3030 May-1964 Dec-1993 7727-2 29261 To SEKR 3030 on 1-Nov-1994 DRGW 3031 May-1964 Dec-1993 7727-3 29262 To SEKR 3031 on 1-Nov-1994 To SOKL 3031 on Aug-1998 DRGW 3032 May-1964 Dec-1993 7727-4 29263 To OMLX 3032 on Jan-1995 To UTAH 2001 on 1998 DRGW 3033 Jun-1964 Dec-1993 7727-5 29264 To OMLX 3033 on Jan-1995 To GWRX 3033 on Unknown To NPR 3501 on 1998 DRGW 3034 Jun-1964 3-Oct-1991 7727-6 29265 To OMLX 3034 on Jan-1995 To CEFX 3034 on Oct-1999 DRGW 3035 Jun-1964 Dec-1993 7727-7 29266 To LHRR 2007 on Unknown To FWWR 2002 on Apr-1998 DRGW 3036 Jun-1964 Dec-1993 7727-8 29267 To OMLX 3036 on Jan-1995 To NPR 3502 on Jan-1998 DRGW 3037 Jun-1964 Dec-1993 7735-1 29370 To OMLX 3037 on Jan-1995 To UTAH 2000 on May-1998 DRGW 3038 Jun-1964 Dec-1993 7735-2 29371 To GWR 3038 on Jan-1995 Worked on Indiana Hi-Rail To WSOR 3038 on Unknown To FWWR 2000 on Aug-2000 DRGW 3039 Dec-1964 Dec-1993 7776-1 29964 To OMLX 3039 on Jan-1995 To MRL 403 on 1997 DRGW 3040 Dec-1964 Dec-1993 7776-2 29965 To SEKR 3040 on Jan-1995 To WAMX 3521 on ??? DRGW 3041 Dec-1964 Dec-1993 7776-3 29966 To SOKL 3041 on Jan-1995 To GWR 3041 on Unknown To IHRC 3041 on May-1996 To HBRY 2501 on May-1997 To KSW 2501 on 1999 DRGW 3042 Dec-1964 Dec-1993 7776-4 29967 To OMLX 3042 on Jan-1995 To PNR 2254 on 20-Feb-2004 DRGW 3043 Dec-1964 Dec-1993 7776-5 29968 To OMLX 3043 on Jan-1995 To MRL 404 on 1997 DRGW 3044 Jan-1965 Nov-1995 7776-6 29969 Wrecked Allen, CO To Hartwell RR 3044, Georgia DRGW 3045 Jan-1965 7-May-1996 7776-7 29970 To WLE 3045 on Jul-1997 DRGW 3046 Jan-1965 Dec-1993 7776-8 29971 To SEKR 3046 on Jan-1995 To SOKL 3046 on 1998 To WAMX 3522 on ??? DRGW 3047 Jan-1965 Dec-1993 7776-9 29972 To OMLX 3047 on Jan-1995 To MRL 405 on 1997 DRGW 3048 Jan-1965 Dec-1993 7776-10 29973 To OMLX 3048 on 11-Feb-1995 To CEFX 3048 on Oct-1999 DRGW 3049 Jan-1965 Dec-1993 7776-11 29974 Scrapped by Omnitrax Feb-1996 DRGW 3050 Jan-1965 Dec-1993 7782-01 30023 To KSW 3050 on 1996 To LHRR 2006 on 1997 To FWWR 2006 on Apr-1998

Locomotives: DRGW 3025(GP30) DRGW 3045(GP35)			Author:  Chuck Zeiler
Picture Categories: Roster		This picture is part of album

Note the difference between the Lionel ad picture of its Rio Grande GP35 with the correct color orange and the actual production version. I had been looking forward to these engines.

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Bob GREAT pictures of the Lionel engines/ My favorite pictures are of the 2 DRGW Engines AND THE 4 BAY DRGW HOPPER. The color is AWESOME/ Thanks for sharing.

How could anyone disagree with that?

Look Breeze.

I stopped reading this and your comments yesterday when you tried to say the UP Heritage DRGW unit yellow is the correct yellow that the 1960's lettering should be.  And the 'freshly painted' headlight housing on a rusted out RG engine.  Who freshly painted it in 2010?  the DRGW shops have been long closed for 20years!  I am sorry for that.  Looks like you have been out to proove your point quite alot here.  I dont doubt you know alot and like to show people on the forum you know alot about trains.

I started this post because I was proud I spent my hard earned money on these new Lionel units and enjoy running them very much on my Western layout.  So I shared the pics for all who want to see them.

I am very happy with this locomotive and the colors.  This color represents a freshly painted DRGW locomotive, before solar loading and bleatching pull the red pigment out of it making it the washed out orange we see in many of the online ref pics.  Trouble is that these pics have been taken decades after the original paint was applied.

I have Kato HO Rio Grande Locos, several N Scale Locos and O scale locos all from diff manufacturers, and every one of them is consist in color and painted the new freshly applied paint color.  So many other train people besides us have decided that this is the right color.

I have color slides from my family from the mid 1960's, standing on portch of these engines, freshly delivered for service with this color.

I have also been deeply involved in restration project of one of my Mustangs painted in a Autumn Amber color (similar to this fresh DRGW color) where after the 10th year, the red pigment has bleatched out and it washed out to the flat orange similar to these DRGW engines.  This is a environmental effect.  It is unavoidable.  My car had to be enirely repainted because there was such a change between the fresh paint and the 10+ years in exposure color.  In time, the red pigment drops out and the orange lightens.  Just the way it is.

So again I'm happy with these engines, and this color is fine with me.  They match the rest of my collection and if you want to dispute DRGW colors, maybe it should be in a different thred on that subject.

There are many of us who are tired of posting pics to share for the fun of it and show off a new train to fellow modellers.  If you dont like the color that the manufacturer painted my train, call them.  Dont just pick a fight with the new owner of the train who loves it and shared pics of it.  How do you think that makes someone feel?  They love their new train (and always the same cast of characters) hops up on forum and bashes it, and says it is no good, and have fun running a train that is not accurate.  (directed at someone else much more abrasive )

Well it is great to me and matches all my DRGW motive power in all scales I own, reference materials, and my 1960's family pics.  So I love it.

Some years ago, said group of 'experts' was bashing lionel for making a scale NE caboose in Wabash.  There was such chest thumping, how wrong it was and how Wabash never owned a caboose like that, you would think it was a court trial.  So then I posted the prototype pic of the Caboose used as the model of the caboose that was not supposed to exist.  The experts, with foot in mouth, said well, that is a transfer caboose that doesnt count!  And then they just continued the usual bashing on other posts.  So I dont listen to the 'experts' they are usually wrong.

So my point here is there is alot of trains out there to enjoy, and why be so critical?  These are models, and toys, and for fun and enjoyment of others.  We run on a third rail and the pilots swing, and our radiuses are too tight.  There are alot of fundamental flaws here and we do our best to hide them and make a neat realistic layout for our selves and others to enjoy.

We must remember they are still "toys" that run on 3 rails. Super O Bob how is that new super O layout coming along?

Thx Bob---well put, you said it all

Let's move on

Awesome engines---also enjoy seeing the layout coming together

PLEASE keep pics coming

Thx again

Joe S   (another Super "O" junkie)  

Good Day Bob,

Thank you for posting the GP35 and GP9 pictures!  The Western Pacific and Rio Grande presentation are some of my favorites. The Boston and Maine Color scheme is a classic! The Burlington red and gray look great. They all look fantastic! 

Best regards,

Frank 

My sincerely apologies, Bob. Looking back, I can see how my comments could easily have be seen as critical. That's not how it was intended at all. I got on the hunt to get to the bottom of this color issue, and we went back and forth "devil's advocating" each position. I wasn't an expert, but just started doing some research along the way to try to determine what the real story was on the history. Looking back, it seems I got carried away a bit. I didn't mean for it to be personal at all, and certainly wasn't looking to "pick a fight."  

As has been said many times, a person's intent and feeling is often masked by this internet medium. If we had been together in person going through this exercise, it would have been a whole different experience, I think. I consider you knowledgeable on these matters, and always want to hear your views. This has been true for years. When you comment about something, you always have my attention. I learned a lot about this particular subject of Rio Grande history as we went through this, that I never knew before. And in fact I ordered these engines when I was at my LHS yesterday, despite the alleged color issue, just because they're still too sharp to pass up!

Again, I sincerely apologize. I'm glad for your comments, and hope you'll get on me again if I go astray with anything!  

Likewise, I had no intention of ordering another GP-35 besides the Great Northern I got, but when I saw the D&RGW ones I had to have one of them, too.  These pics are costing me a LOT of money.

Looks like #301 is a ex Rio Grande GP40-2.

Hi Breeze-  Thanks for the comments...  It was well said, and I really appreciate it.  No problem...

Frank-

You need to see one of these B&M geeps in person.  Really sweet and looks better than these pictures (to me). 

I'm working on the cover story of how these units found their way on to the 'western rails' of my layout.  Transport of Alien wreckage?  On loan to UP?  Anyway they really are sharp an I love how they brighten up my engine shelf.

Not sure if this was put in what was below this, but that's the Wheeling and Lake Erie 301, if you look closely you can see the WE above the number.

http://www.nsdash9.com/WEroster/WE301.html

Yup Yup...  I think you are correct! So much cross leasing...

I hope someone does a ATSF Texas for leasing to the PRR!

The Santa Fe 2-10-4's leased to the Pennsylvania retained their Santa Fe lettering to the end.

Rusty

Both MTH and Sunset/3rd Rail already have produced these models.

Thanks, Bob.

Thanks Hot Water.  I specifically want Lionel.  I should have been clear.  I see I typed it very general.

Heck, I'd be delighted just to find a recent Lionel PRR Texas in Legacy... 

If one company doesn't offer it, sometimes you need to go beyond self-imposed constraints (comfort zone?) and get it elsewhere.

The only model 2-10-4 class of steam locomotive that Lionel has produced, to my knowledge, has been the PRR J1a and/or the C&O T1. If you really desire a model of the Santa Fe 2-10-4, as was leased to the PRR in the Sandusky, Ohio area, you should really look into the Sunset/3rd Rail offering. The Sunset/3rd Rail is by far the most accurate model of the Santa Fe 2-10-4, and they seem to pop up regularly on eBay. The Sunset/3rd Rail PRR J1a 2-10-4 models show up regularly on eBay also, and they are by far the MOST accurate models of that PRR class.

All great looking new power for 2013. Here is the 2013 Conrail sd40-2.

Bob,

Thanks for posting the pictures. I am starting with the Great Northern and I like the Rio Grande (may have to track a pair down - not sure who has them.) Did you get the Rock Islands yet? I like those as well and I am trying to decide which ones I want. Can you post a picture of the Rock Islands if you have them?

Thanks

Joe

The new Legacy ConRail SD40-2 looks really handsome - likely going to get one or two sooner or later.

Good Day Bob,

When time permits can you please post some side shot pictures of your Western Pacific GP35's? Thank you.

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank-

The WP GP35 is posted in the pics...  You should see it.

Since this post I got the Rock Island GP35s and the Wabash GP9's

oh, sorry I missed the 'side shots' comment.  Ok I will try...

Bob,

I was about hit the buy button on Charlie's web site on two new Mopac GP35's and then at the last minute I noticed that they put the dynamic brake fan on top of the unit. Bummer! I have two Atlas units and even though lionel chose the same numbers as atlas I thought I could do a renumber job. But I am going to pass with the Dynamic brake blister on top. 

Here is the Atlas unit with the Lionel Burlington in the background. The Atlas unit is also heavier.

Thanks for the photos. The Atlas Blue Mopac looks like a much more detailed model compared to the Lionel maybe its just the photo and or I am getting older. Heck they are both cool looking.

here is the side view frank...

hi Blue...  The lionel model comes both ways, with and without the dynamic brake, depending on the road name.

The catalog art usually is just a sketch of the roadname, not actually what the model will look like (at least you cant bank on it).

The recent DT&I GP35 came correctly WITHOUT the dyn brake, although the catalog picture had this brake because they just photoshopped the catalog art.  I think there were a few more examples of this on the other GP35's.  So my guess is the Lionel model of MOPAC GP35 will be without the dyn brake.  Time will tell, I will be ordering them...

Super O Bob

I hope a lot of folks read what you have to say. I remember when I was building World War 2 model aircraft German Italian, British American Japanese. I remember the countless articles about exact color etcthe arguments at contests about the color accuracy of someone's model. When you talked with the actual surviving pilots and ground crews from the war they to a man all laughed about color accuracy. As long as they came close. The Germans used Italian paints for their aircraft and tanks in the desert using mops, brooms and paint brushes and airbrushes to apply it.

How does that compare to peacetime railroads. When it comes to color there is so much to consider, scale effect of the model, lighting, hue, time of day, natural light or electric light and what kind of bulbs. Those spiral silly bulbs the gov't wants us all to use give off all kinds of different hues as well as LED's

Anyways the folks in the industry do a pretty good job to make sure they match colors as accurately as possible. Keep in mind these guys are hobbyists too!!!

Even the "Corporations" at times will cooperate because the "corps" know its advertizing.

Personally knowing what I have learned about camoflages, colours etc. I am not a purist and if the colours look pretty good to me I'll bite. Because even in real life the colours change.

While visiting in Florida was talking to an ex executive of Atlantic Coast Line who said those purple colors faded so fast they would run the engine through a wash and the paint crews repainted the purple!!

Hope this helps.

Don't get so bent out of shape with precise accuracy, because it doesn't exist. Enjoy the hobby. I think the industry does a pretty good job overall today. I hope we never see the low quality days of the '70's or '80's again

M1 Fred-

This is so funny to see you post this!  I got a huge experience in 1/72 aircraft models and 1/48 too...  I was heavy into building scale models and the paint debate since the 1970's!

I did not touch the 'scale effect' for 1/48 in my discussion, but weathering of paint is a huge impact on how it appears in the photos we all look at...

thanks for the post!

Bob,

Your right about the dynamic brake blister. I had not noticed it before on the DT&I until your comment. I guess I will pre order at least 1 MOPAC, maybe 2!

And hope for the best.

Joe

The new GP35s look nice, but the Alaska Railroad never painted their GP35s in Blue & Yellow.  2501 & 2502 were Black & Yellow - 2503 was rebuilt to GP40 specs & then painted 3051 in Blue & Yellow - then renumbered 3021.  Wish Lionel painted them in Black & Yellow to match the GP30 they released.

Super O Bob

I meant my e-mail in support of what you wrote regards to breezinup's comments. Sorry if my ranting went off the tracks. I am home nursing a flu and the meds my wife have given me are making me sleepy!!!!

There is so much to this color business, but I like to think the guys in R&D at these companies know their stuff.

My rule of thumb is to take a page out of the Wine/Bourbon rating system 85 and above are very good wines. 90 and above you're at the excellent level. I say the companies are 90ish which is unscientific but acceptable to me. Like your posts Super O