I saw the locomotive today and penciled one in depending on price. I spoke with Dave Olson and the model at the show is not the final version. He confirmed the engine deck will be redesigned to be able to move above horizontal eliminating any chance of breaking in normal operation. I suspect there will be other changes as well. Stay tuned.
Pete
wrawroacx posted:Big Jim posted:wrawroacx posted:Now my curiosity is, what will the whistle sound like. Now I did my research and lot of people will be surprised. Actually I didn't know for myself until I did research on the Niagara whistle. Well I found this site - http://www.trainboard.com/high...gara-whistles.60403/ Niagara's used 3 chime hancock long bell. A video attached, which isn't mine, shows what this whistle sounds like below. But to make sure, I know someone here on this forum should know, did Niagara's use Hancock long bells?
Years ago I bought a CD titled "Living With Steam - The Sounds of Railroading in Buffalo & Western New York". One of the tracks that I was particularly interested in was of the pacing of train #78 and its Niagara locomotive #6018. The recording paces the train for a good while as it accelerates. Eventually the car pacing the train has to stop for a road crossing. Can you imagine my disappointment when a HORN was used to blow the road crossing!
Enjoy the steam whistle on the new Vision Line Niagara. However, I wonder if the new Niagara will also include the ability to change over to the horn sounds?
PS - For all of you guys that think the NYC Niagara was the cat's meow, the N&W Class J would have left the Niagara in its dust accelerating to that road crossing!
Wow, now that's very interesting about the CD. Yea, that would be very dissapointing. But the Niagara abd other locomotives that had air horns used them only at High Speeds because at High Speeds, the whistle was not that loud. So they obviously were running fast to blow the horn unless in the audio you hear sounds slower.
Not sure where the Hancock 3 chime story originated but the NYC used a standard 6 chime steam whistle for all passenger engines and a higher pitched 5 chime for freight engines. The main reason an air horn was installed on the Niagara's boiler directly in in front of the engineer's position was because they complained that they could not hear the steam whistle (some 53 feet ahead of them) when running at the customary 80 mph.
I find this thread fascinating. It truly does range from the sublime to the ridiculous, which is entertaining at the least. Thanks for that.
Tender "Scoop mist" looks ridiculous to me in person. It looks like the wiring in the tender is on fire. Three spouts on each side of the tender shooting smoke makes it look like a hot rod hemi at the Speedway. If I buy a Niagara tender mist will be OFF. Another silly Vision gadget.
AMCDave posted:I stick to my guns........these innovations are still catering to the die hard long time hobbyist. Let's see something that brings in new people at a level that folks will not have to get a loan for.
I think some are mistaking my opinions as not thinking Lionel put some work into this loco. I work in the hobby field....I have an above average insight into what is involved in product development.
We in the plastic kit hobby have not done a good job getting new blood into the hobby......we always are hunting for a way....not hit on it yet. I don't feel this loco will do the same for the model train hobby either.
Thanks
AMCDave..
You must have missed LionChief+ and all the sets that Lionel makes for kids.
Take a look.
Many of those who complained about this engine may not have been in attendance at York to see this locomotive first hand. The people at Lionel did a great job and it was well received at York by York goers. Being a Lionel Tech, I conversed with Ryan Kunkle and went over everything that will be inside. This engine has all the best bells and whistles that can be used in it. I know that many reasons exist why a member will state he can not/will not purchase this locomotive. Like any other high end locomotive, nobody is obligated to buy it. Your reasons are yours and not that of a large number of people who observed this locomotive. The people who will buy it are the people who will want it. York was full of them today. No matter where you were on the Fairgrounds, the new Niagara was the hot buzz. Lionel had it running all day and what a hit it was. I look forward to receiving this locomotive.
Now that is BAD-A*S 
pghtrainguy posted:THey started VL with new , never done before locos and amazing, new features, but now thay been re-issuing past locomotives with "Vision" features. Too bad. Won't be buying it.
To you and Laidoffsick:
Is that true? I am not an expert on any of this stuff but I was under the impression that Lionel had done at least one prior version of a Hudson, Challenger, Big Boy before the Vision versions?
I'll be curious to see the final product and all the tweaking that occurs between now and then. It's hard to comment on a prototype, I'll wait for the final version.
Alex M posted:jHere's the video of it in action , this is just a mock up prototype, there's actually 5 smoke units all switches are located in the top sand dome. Sorry I'm writing this very quick. Smoke fill for the tender is located in the front tender toolbox
Smoke
Alex thanks for the better quality video. The other posted video looks like it was shot on a flip phone. LOL
The Hudson, Challenger, and BB were not the first VL products. The 1st ones were all new....then they moved away from new and went to upgrading previous releases and calling them VL.
Excellent markinging on their part. Sucked everyone in with brand new, never produced engines for a few years, and then just re-release older engines with some upgrades and a huge price tag. Still working too, just wait for the price tag on this one.
My only complaint will be it probably won't run on O36 track, which I want. If it does, then I'd probably buy it. My comment of the water scoop effect, I think it'd be better if the jets were inside the wheels, not outside. Hopefully that changed with the production model.
sinclair posted:My only complaint will be it probably won't run on O36 track, which I want. If it does, then I'd probably buy it. My comment of the water scoop effect, I think it'd be better if the jets were inside the wheels, not outside. Hopefully that changed with the production model.
Actually, it's correct. It's actually overflow outlets. It surprised me, I have to retract my "weed sprayer" comment:
Rusty
What??!! Great photo Rusty! I too initially thought it looked silly, but it actually does look like the prototype. The initial "spray" of smoke looks like the picture. It loses the effect, for me, shortly thereafter as the smoke wafts/floats above the surface, which of course is what smoke does but not what water would do.
Having a smoke effect in the tender would be cool. Would the brakes on the tender ever smoke?
Yes....I am aware of all the Lionel products.....even LionChief+ items. Decent stuff but just versions of items already on market.
I pulled my Williams brass version to see if my memory was correct comparing the VL loco to my engine. I do understand the appeal of the Niagara, big brawny loco with unique looks from a popular road. My old cheap version holds up very well. Yes....basic sound and smoke. But it runs like a watch and detail is close enough at speed on the layout to make me happy. I will maintain this VL loco is aimed at guys with lots of cash, in the hobby already. Not going to draw folks to the hobby and that is my main point....not weather Lionel makes a good product.....I have lots of them.....Big Boy to WM Shay.
I'd like to see the same investment in growing the hobby......kinda a self saving investment IMHO. thx
Laidoffsick posted:The Hudson, Challenger, and BB were not the first VL products. The 1st ones were all new....then they moved away from new and went to upgrading previous releases and calling them VL.
Excellent markinging on their part. Sucked everyone in with brand new, never produced engines for a few years, and then just re-release older engines with some upgrades and a huge price tag. Still working too, just wait for the price tag on this one.
LOS is spot on target here. The only market research Lionel is really doing with this locomotive release is getting people's appetite rev'd up, so they'll rationalize the anticipated price tag. Count on it folks... this one is gonna hurt!
Laidoffsick posted:The Hudson, Challenger, and BB were not the first VL products. The 1st ones were all new....then they moved away from new and went to upgrading previous releases and calling them VL.
Excellent markinging on their part. Sucked everyone in with brand new, never produced engines for a few years, and then just re-release older engines with some upgrades and a huge price tag. Still working too, just wait for the price tag on this one.
If this is a reply to my note, I wasn't making a statement, I was asking a question. It seemed like you were saying that for a period Vision meant all new and never before offered locomotives. I'm asking - when was that and what locomotives does that include?
To my knowledge, I thought the Hudson, Challenger and ATSF 2-10-10-2 were either the first or close to it, given they came out in I think the 2010 catalogue. Unless Vision locomotives go back many years before that, how many Vision engines were actually never-before-offered locomotives? And which ones were they?
Thanks
How bout the diecast ES44s and the Genset switchers..
T4TT posted:What??!! Great photo Rusty! I too initially thought it looked silly, but it actually does look like the prototype. The initial "spray" of smoke looks like the picture. It loses the effect, for me, shortly thereafter as the smoke wafts/floats above the surface, which of course is what smoke does but not what water would do.
Having a smoke effect in the tender would be cool. Would the brakes on the tender ever smoke?
The smoke fed water spray effect , as you stated, does not perform as a forced spray of water would. However, since the stoker engine was housed on the tender the smoke could be the stoker exhaust if redirected.
Rusty Traque posted:sinclair posted:My only complaint will be it probably won't run on O36 track, which I want. If it does, then I'd probably buy it. My comment of the water scoop effect, I think it'd be better if the jets were inside the wheels, not outside. Hopefully that changed with the production model.
Actually, it's correct. It's actually overflow outlets. It surprised me, I have to retract my "weed sprayer" comment:
Rusty
Rusty, thanks for posting this. I said the same type of thing - looks like the chemical spray - I'm not retracting - even the real-life version looks like it, the industrial size version. lol
Rocky Mountaineer posted:Laidoffsick posted:The Hudson, Challenger, and BB were not the first VL products. The 1st ones were all new....then they moved away from new and went to upgrading previous releases and calling them VL.
Excellent markinging on their part. Sucked everyone in with brand new, never produced engines for a few years, and then just re-release older engines with some upgrades and a huge price tag. Still working too, just wait for the price tag on this one.
LOS is spot on target here. The only market research Lionel is really doing with this locomotive release is getting people's appetite rev'd up, so they'll rationalize the anticipated price tag. Count on it folks... this one is gonna hurt!
RM,
I mean, you're not wrong per se, but whetting the buying audience's appetite is what anyone with an ounce of marketing brains would do. Why so negative? Yes, this locomotive has been done before. But so has virtually every other locomotive, Vision or otherwise. And, instead of this being yet another plain-old reissue - like MTH has been doing for years - this one has a host of new goodies. Is it for everyone - no. But then the high-end market isn't for everyone. It's so far out that I don't know if we'll be buying this one or not. But my take-away is - and it pains me to say this as we were die-hard MTH fans from the start - that of the Big Two, one continues to bring new and innovative things to market (with price tags that make me cringe, but that they are emboldened to ask because of the lack of competition) while the other continues to pop out time-warp identical reissues of offerings from 20 yeas ago. Given the landscape, I'm grateful there is someone pushing the envelope. Just my 0.2.
Peter
Great post. When it is ready to go to the dealers, those who want it will buy it and those who do not buy it will complain about it. Job well done Lionel and Ryan. I spent lots of time today at York watching this fantastic locomotive.
For those interested in the real thing, the NYCHS has published several pdf's on this page: https://nycshs.org/nycs-research-information/
on this web page you will find links to articles about the Niagaras and the NYC track pan and water scoop systems. I have read all of them and they are truly fantastic. I highly recommend the article on the redesign of the water scoop system, it taught me much about the seldom studied system. The amount of engineering that went into all of it is astounding... I am grateful that the NYCHS has published these articles for free, with such easy access for the general public. Keep up the great work guys! Hope everyone has had a happy York week.
PJB posted:Rocky Mountaineer posted:Laidoffsick posted:The Hudson, Challenger, and BB were not the first VL products. The 1st ones were all new....then they moved away from new and went to upgrading previous releases and calling them VL.
Excellent markinging on their part. Sucked everyone in with brand new, never produced engines for a few years, and then just re-release older engines with some upgrades and a huge price tag. Still working too, just wait for the price tag on this one.
LOS is spot on target here. The only market research Lionel is really doing with this locomotive release is getting people's appetite rev'd up, so they'll rationalize the anticipated price tag. Count on it folks... this one is gonna hurt!
RM,
I mean, you're not wrong per se, but whetting the buying audience's appetite is what anyone with an ounce of marketing brains would do. Why so negative? ...
PJB, we're not being negative at all. Rather we're just being realistic. As I've said in earlier posts, I like the Niagara as an offering. Not sure it was worthy of VisionLine status, but I do like the locomotive. According to the preview brochure, it's being "redesigned from the inside out". So let's hope all the issues surrounding the CCII Niagara are behind us with the VL model.
I was more than impressed with all the fancy steam effects on the demo model, and I think the "fun factor" will be high on this locomotive without wearing off too soon. HOWEVER, Lionel will make this purchase hurt -- even for the guys with deep pockets. And Marty, that's not a complaint... it's very real if Lionel's track record is an indication. Heck, just look at the price of the new S-3 re-issue, and that barely has any new features over the original one.
Like many folks, I saw the Niagara demo at York... and I can't wait to see the final production unit. Sounds like these puppies won't be out until this time next year though -- so there will be plenty of time for folks who are interested to save their pennies. But I do think Lionel needs to tweak the model beyond what we saw at York, and I'm surprised nobody else has noted these observations yet. So I'll do it now:
Are these deal-breakers? Not sure yet. And I guess the real answer for some folks is, it may depend on the Niagara's price tag. But an even bigger issue for me is we're once again left to "wonder" how much different (i.e., better?) the production locomotive will appear vs. the demo model seen at York. Sure, many die-hard Lionel fans will pre-order this in a heart-beat without even thinking about any of these concerns. But I'm not one of those. Lionel's track record is a mere "so-so" in regards to delivering EXACTLY what they preview/catalog. So I'll probably wait to see what's actually delivered rather than commit to a pre-order (or two). I wish that weren't the case, but we're talking Lionel here -- not 3rd Rail / Sunset Models. 
Bandomnjr posted:For those interested in the real thing, the NYCHS has published several pdf's on this page: https://nycshs.org/nycs-research-information/
on this web page you will find links to articles about the Niagaras and the NYC track pan and water scoop systems. I have read all of them and they are truly fantastic. I highly recommend the article on the redesign of the water scoop system, it taught me much about the seldom studied system. The amount of engineering that went into all of it is astounding... I am grateful that the NYCHS has published these articles for free, with such easy access for the general public. Keep up the great work guys! Hope everyone has had a happy York week.
I like the comparisons to the other engines of the day. Thanks for the link!
It's a fabulous engine. I regret the fact that my layout is confined to O54 curves! I would order it in a minute!
Peter
Love the responses. The Lionel guys, and for that matter all the vendors, appreciate constructive criticism. They get a better model from it. Nothing wrong with that. Is there negativity in this thread? Sure but hopefully they will wade through it and pick up the good information from the thread. Even with the negativity there are good points to be made.
I've said before it's not my RR or engine that I would buy but love some of the technical features especially the force coupler. I see some definite potential here. Dave said there will be some Easter Eggs in this model as well. I couldn't get him to spill the beans but he seemed genuinely excited about them.
Putnam Division posted:It's a fabulous engine. I regret the fact that my layout is confined to O54 curves! I would order it in a minute!
Peter
Wasn't the CCII Niagara rated for o-54?
Granted, it wouldnt look that great doing it, but if the mechanics are the same maybe the new one might too.
I guess Dave would have the final say.
Rocky Mountaineer posted:PJB posted:Rocky Mountaineer posted:Laidoffsick posted:The Hudson, Challenger, and BB were not the first VL products. The 1st ones were all new....then they moved away from new and went to upgrading previous releases and calling them VL.
Excellent markinging on their part. Sucked everyone in with brand new, never produced engines for a few years, and then just re-release older engines with some upgrades and a huge price tag. Still working too, just wait for the price tag on this one.
LOS is spot on target here. The only market research Lionel is really doing with this locomotive release is getting people's appetite rev'd up, so they'll rationalize the anticipated price tag. Count on it folks... this one is gonna hurt!
RM,
I mean, you're not wrong per se, but whetting the buying audience's appetite is what anyone with an ounce of marketing brains would do. Why so negative? ...
I was more than impressed with all the fancy steam effects on the demo model, and I think the "fun factor" will be high on this locomotive without wearing off too soon. HOWEVER, Lionel will make this purchase hurt -- even for the guys with deep pockets. And Marty, that's not a complaint... it's very real if Lionel's track record is an indication. Heck, just look at the price of the new S-3 re-issue, and that barely has any new features over the original one.
Like many folks, I saw the Niagara demo at York... and I can't wait to see the final production unit. Sounds like these puppies won't be out until this time next year though -- so there will be plenty of time for folks who are interested to save their pennies. But I do think Lionel needs to tweak the model beyond what we saw at York, and I'm surprised nobody else has noted these observations yet. So I'll do it now:
- At super slow speeds -- i.e., crawling -- I noticed a distinct uneasy lurch every now and then. Seemed to disappear as the locomotive gained some speed, but it was definitely there at crawling speeds. And it got me thinking, "What is going on with Lionel's manufacturing factory that we're suddenly seeing new, "redesigned" locomotives coming off the assembly line with less-than-smooth, slow-speed performance?" It's making folks long for some of the TMCC versions of these locomotives that had no such issues. Last year, it was the 0-8-0's. This year it's the Moguls. And here we have Lionel's flagship VisionLine locomotive -- albeit a mock-up demo -- exhibiting similar issues. Sorry, but for the anticipated, wicked price tag, I want absolutely SILKY SMOOTH performance at all operating speeds.
Are these deal-breakers? Not sure yet. And I guess the real answer for some folks is, it may depend on the Niagara's price tag. But an even bigger issue for me is we're once again left to "wonder" how much different (i.e., better?) the production locomotive will appear vs. the demo model seen at York. Sure, many die-hard Lionel fans will pre-order this in a heart-beat without even thinking about any of these concerns. But I'm not one of those. Lionel's track record is a mere "so-so" in regards to delivering EXACTLY what they preview/catalog. So I'll probably wait to see what's actually delivered rather than commit to a pre-order (or two). I wish that weren't the case, but we're talking Lionel here -- not 3rd Rail / Sunset Models.
RM - ok, that makes sense. It just seemed from your earlier post like regardless of what Lionel does to be an innovator, you reduce it to an insidious scheme to rip off the hobbyist. My bad.
I've excerpted two pieces of your post above to add to these points. In terms of the low speed jerky performance, you left out the VL GG1. I bought two. One was a little jerky, the other very jerky - you might recall my post here last year replete with video. The very jerky one went back to Lionel 2x and they eventually said they didn't have any remaining non-jerky models for exchange and therefore, sent me a refund. And my N&W J set's engine was also quite jerky - that too went back for servicing. It didn't help, but I just tired of sending these things back and forth to get them to do what they should do right out of the box. So I gave up and now own something that I don't ever run and that I wish I never bought.
My point is, despite absolutely loving the numver of cool steam features on this new offering and in the past would preorder two of these, just like the VLBB and VL GG1, I too am now not going to preorder. I just don't trust QC at Lionel. I'm at the point where I feel that's it's too risky and I'll just stick with what I have in my roundhouse - a lot less aggravation. Ironically, we are relative newbies (5 years into the hobby, and I have two young sons that love trains) and the perfect buying demographic for Lionel, as we're in the stage of wanting to build up our collection. If I were to buy another Lionel locomotive, I'd have the dealer test it in front of me before taking out my credit card.
Question - a few folks have alluded to the last version of this locomotive that Lionel put out having issues, and the hope that they are worked out in this rendition. I wasn't in the hobby at that time and a quick scan of the archives doesn't yield anything on topic. Does anyone have a recollection of what those issues were? Thanks.
MartyE posted:Love the responses. The Lionel guys, and for that matter all the vendors, appreciate constructive criticism. They get a better model from it. Nothing wrong with that. Is there negativity in this thread? Sure but hopefully they will wade through it and pick up the good information from the thread. Even with the negativity there are good points to be made.
I've said before it's not my RR or engine that I would buy but love some of the technical features especially the force coupler. I see some definite potential here. Dave said there will be some Easter Eggs in this model as well. I couldn't get him to spill the beans but he seemed genuinely excited about them.
I own two VL steamers, Hudson, Big Boy. Love both.. I bought them because, first I like the engines & roads, then in order of preference, appearance (detail level), then operational quality, then features and finally price... In that order...
I can't imagine what folks are thinking when they blindly order overly expensive toys like this because they're impressed with the gimmicks without really liking the engine itself. Hint, folks can find most of these features in an engine they really truly like at less then half the cost.
joe
PJB posted:Question - a few folks have alluded to the last version of this locomotive that Lionel put out having issues, and the hope that they are worked out in this rendition. I wasn't in the hobby at that time and a quick scan of the archives doesn't yield anything on topic. Does anyone have a recollection of what those issues were? Thanks.
Most of the issues were with the drive train. Plastic driveshaft and gears failed. There are now replacements that address those. Also many had flaking paint on the wheels and also the engine deck would break easily.
Its already been assured the new engine has a different drivetrain and I have been told the engine deck will be different.
Hopefully the remake will have added detail as well. I have the early Lionel, early MTH and 3rd Rail Niagaras and Lionel's first effort placed last in the detail department. Its not bad but not as fine as the other two. MTH has already improved theirs with their newest release and with a $1k street price will be a bargain for those who value detail and accuracy over the steam/water effects.
Pete
Rusty Traque posted:sinclair posted:My only complaint will be it probably won't run on O36 track, which I want. If it does, then I'd probably buy it. My comment of the water scoop effect, I think it'd be better if the jets were inside the wheels, not outside. Hopefully that changed with the production model.
Actually, it's correct. It's actually overflow outlets. It surprised me, I have to retract my "weed sprayer" comment:
Rusty
Wow, who'd of thunk? I stand corrected, and great job Lionel for making it prototypical! Now I really wish it could go on O36.
My only concern is if there are any bugs that are yet in the preproduction sample that didn't show up. Granted that got nearly a full run all 3 days of York with only about a half hour or so downtime. Ryan had said the traction tires didn't last as the engine killed them sometime Friday before the 2 PM OGR meeting. What he didn't say is if they were replaced(if there was spares to put on). There were slight other issues like too much smoke fluid(which was cleared up by Dave blowing out the tender gently) but that is operator error(Ryan). Overall if they found all the bugs, it should be a great engine. Big question of course is the price, and that will always remain the big question no matter what.
The wheels would come apart to . I hope they fix that to.
Waiting to see the finished product. Hoping that it has considerably more cab detail
Just noticed the screws for the drive rods have Phillips head screws. Also and confirmed with Lionel that is what will be produced. Is this something new? It's also on the H-10. Thanks.
John Hon posted:Just noticed the screws for the drive rods have Phillips head screws. Also and confirmed with Lionel that is what will be produced. Is this something new? It's also on the H-10. Thanks.
What to bet that those are NOT "Philips" head screws, but JIS, i.e. Japanese Industrial Standard. Philips head screw drives only sort of work. Best to purchase the small JIS screw drivers from Granger.
Also, that looks REALLY STUPID!
That's what I thought. So a visionline locomotive with JIS or Philips head screws looks terrible! Making me rethink getting one now!
Just FYI, if you order one from the LCCA, it's $1710, which includes a year's membership and free shipping. Deadline is March 12th. https://www.lionelcollectors.o...?id=1039&catId=6
Apparently that's Charles Ro's price as well.
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