John Hon posted:Just noticed the screws for the drive rods have Phillips head screws. Also and confirmed with Lionel that is what will be produced. Is this something new? It's also on the H-10. Thanks.
Can I ask who confirmed that these will be the screws they will be using? Not that its a big deal. They could be filled in and replated if it came to that.
Pete
I confirmed it with Dave Olson. So, I just saved myself a big chunk of money.
John Hon posted:I confirmed it with Dave Olson. So, I just saved myself a big chunk of money.
Probably a nice cost saving for Lionel, i.e. not the more expensive hex-head screw. Plus, they will not have to include the appropriate size hex-head wrench in every locomotive box.
Dave Olson, If you are following this thread rethink the use of these fasteners. No need for the phillips/JIS, whatever. The hex head is all thats needed.
Here is how Williams did it:
Here is how 3rd Rail did it:
Here is MTH:
This is what they should look like. Lionel Hudson:
Please don't cheapen it up.
Pete
Norton posted:Dave Olson, If you are following this thread rethink the use of these fasteners. No need for the phillips/JIS, whatever. The hex head is all thats needed.
Here is how Williams did it:
Here is how 3rd Rail did it:
Here is MTH:
This is what they should look like. Lionel Hudson:
Please don't cheapen it up.
Pete
@Dave Olson
At least two photos missing, above.
Well John, if you're going to post what I wrote in an email to the forum then you should include ALL of the info I give you so that the wrong info does not get out there.
The engines have the hex head side rod screws; they are like what Hot Water said, they are JIS. So they will work with the typical hex wrench or with a JIS driver.
No, we aren't changing it.
"No, we aren't changing it. If you think it looks "REALLY STUPID" and is a deal breaker, then you know what to do. WAY too many complaints to keep pleasing everyone."
Dave,
The vast majority of customers no doubt appreciate the efforts you and your colleagues are making. I know it must be a downer to put in all the hours you guys do only to have individuals show a total lack of courtesy and human decency. Please ignore the ill manners and poor impulse control of some of us.
As you say, nothing Lionel does will satisfy all folks. Reasonable to shoot for the important stuff, which to most of us, doesn't include the type of screw being used 
. Washers, on the other hand, are absolutely dead critical . And punctuation in the instructions are a do or die issue for most of us. 
Aesthetically, doesn't make much difference to the vast majority of purchasers is my guess. Certainly doesn't to me.
Dave, Keep up the good work you and the others are doing. You're not going to please everyone. Most of the negative ones on here probably never had any intention of purchasing one. Many on this forum are just a bunch of windbags who like to hear themselves talk.
Sorry, if I offended people.
Dave's email had the two photos and the statement "Both are hex heads w/ Phillips recess cut into them". I presumed the pictures showed the the screws as described.
This detail was not obvious to me before, and aesthetically does not look like other locomotives.
Its probably because those are the screws Lionel used on the original runs of the H9/10 and Niagara.
John Hon posted:Sorry, if I offended people.
Dave's email had the two photos and the statement "Both are hex heads w/ Phillips recess cut into them". I presumed the pictures showed the the screws as described.
Except, the top photos on this page, apparently of the up-comming H-10 model, show that the side rods are of the small, plain bearing type. However, the rods on a NYC Niagara are of the roller bearing type, and thus have those huge round bearing features characteristic of roller bearings (note the photo of the MTH model and the Lionel streamlined Hudson model)., and in my opinion those Philips/JIS hex-head screws will NOT look prototypical, and thus "stupid".
This detail was not obvious to me before, and aesthetically does not look like other locomotives.
For one of the absolute BEST examples of highly detailed, roller bearing rods on a 3-Rail model steam locomotive, everyone should check out the MTH NYC L4b Mohawk models equipped with roller bearings.
Hot Water posted:John Hon posted:Sorry, if I offended people.
Dave's email had the two photos and the statement "Both are hex heads w/ Phillips recess cut into them". I presumed the pictures showed the the screws as described.
Except, the top photos on this page, apparently of the up-comming H-10 model, show that the side rods are of the small, plain bearing type. However, the rods on a NYC Niagara are of the roller bearing type, and thus have those huge round bearing features characteristic of roller bearings (note the photo of the MTH model and the Lionel streamlined Hudson model)., and in my opinion those Philips/JIS hex-head screws will NOT look prototypical, and thus "stupid".
This detail was not obvious to me before, and aesthetically does not look like other locomotives.
For one of the absolute BEST examples of highly detailed, roller bearing rods on a 3-Rail model steam locomotive, everyone should check out the MTH NYC L4b Mohawk models equipped with roller bearings.
John, no apology required. You just posted a picture. Dave just confirmed what you saw is what Lionel is going to produce.
Jack, How about posting a picture of your Mohawk. That one is like hen's teeth. Not many folks even knew MTH made that variation.
Pete
"thus "stupid".
Not at all in my view. Would it have taken that much more effort to have chosen a word such as "inaccurate?"
This is no way to have a civil discussion forum, in my opinion. I'm almost inclined to buy one of these just to tick you off .
Norton posted:Jack, How about posting a picture of your Mohawk. That one is like hen's teeth. Not many folks even knew MTH made that variation.
Pete
Ever since our big desk-top I Mac failed (the hard drive gave up), I am no longer able to post any of my old photos. Yes, I did have it "backed up" with an "G-Technology" G Drive mobile USB, but I haven't bothered to hook THAT thing up to our MacBook Air. Bottom line, no more posting photos.
I was instrumental in getting the folks at MTH to offer that "special" model of the L4b roller bearing rods locomotive. The NYC had only two, #3144 and #3148, and MTH offered both versions, as "sets", one with "Pacemaker Service" box cars and the other with "Merchants Express" reefers.
Landsteiner posted:"thus "stupid".
Not at all in my view. Would it have taken that much more effort to have chosen a word such as "inaccurate?"
Whatever you prefer.
This is no way to have a civil discussion forum, in my opinion. I'm almost inclined to buy one of these just to tick you off
Now THAT statement is TRULY FUNNY! You'll waste YOUR money, to "tick me off"????????? Why not buy 2 or 3 then?
For what it's worth, Lionel hasn't produced much in recent years that I would spend my money on, except the Legacy version of the UP FEF-3 as original equipped with the Sellers Exhaust Steam Injector (and was SPECIFICALLY announced that way in the catalog), which eventually arrived as just another Worthington equipped UP 844, naturally I declined. Now, even though I already have two NYC Niagara models (MTH and Sunset/3rd Rail), I was already to pre-order a different road number. I have now changed my mind, and will just have to settle for running the two I currently have.
Scrapiron Scher posted:Tender "Scoop mist" looks ridiculous to me in person. It looks like the wiring in the tender is on fire. Three spouts on each side of the tender shooting smoke makes it look like a hot rod hemi at the Speedway. If I buy a Niagara tender mist will be OFF. Another silly Vision gadget.
I'm in total agreement with you.... The question I ask is, why didn't they put alternating in sequence, steam blow offs on the bottom of the big front steam cylinders...Make them work just like the "Real McCoy"....That would look much better, than a tender that looks like it's on fire.....I'm like some of the others on here, in that you get, what they want you to have..........!
Hot Water posted:Norton posted:Jack, How about posting a picture of your Mohawk. That one is like hen's teeth. Not many folks even knew MTH made that variation.
Pete
Ever since our big desk-top I Mac failed (the hard drive gave up), I am no longer able to post any of my old photos. Yes, I did have it "backed up" with an "G-Technology" G Drive mobile USB, but I haven't bothered to hook THAT thing up to our MacBook Air. Bottom line, no more posting photos.
I was instrumental in getting the folks at MTH to offer that "special" model of the L4b roller bearing rods locomotive. The NYC had only two, #3144 and #3148, and MTH offered both versions, as "sets", one with "Pacemaker Service" box cars and the other with "Merchants Express" reefers.
I have the MTH Premier L4b Mohawk cab 3144 and the latest MTH Premier NYC Niagara release, cab 6014. Pictures of both sets of drivers with roller bearing rods are included along with a full view of the 3144. This is one of my favorite engines and the NYCSHS assisted in the design of both this and the Niagara. In my opinion the latest NYC Niagara by MTH is one of the best and a great runner too. Hope you enjoy.
The real deal.
Here is what Lionel offered 25 years ago.
Pete
The original CCII Niagara has a JIS screw that runs through a hex capped bushing to make up the crankpin, which is a bit different from your typical solid hex head crankpin w/shoulder. The lionelsupport.com site has the original Niagara parts breakdown so you can see what the crankpin assemblies look like. This engine was built so differently at the time, probably because it was the only one Aijin did for them. I dont think Aijin built anything else for them, unless someone knows differently.
Norm Charbonneau posted:The original CCII Niagara has a JIS screw that runs through a hex capped bushing to make up the crankpin, which is a bit different from your typical solid hex head crankpin w/shoulder. The lionelsupport.com site has the original Niagara parts breakdown so you can see what the crankpin assemblies look like. This engine was built so differently at the time, probably because it was the only one Aijin did for them. I dont think Aijin built anything else for them, unless someone knows differently.
I believe there was a PRR steamer that Ajin built for Lionel. I know that Mr Cho did visit here and spent time with PAPERTRW. I will text Todd later and get the answer.
I know Mr Cho and team learned the idiosyncrasies of 3 rail building from the blueprints RoW did for their locomotives.
Lou N
While we're on the subject of the Vision Line Niagara, what will the wheels look like? I don't particularly care for white walls and hope they make the wheels black or with the silver ring on the drivers like before. Do we know this definitively? I know the prototype had white rims in most of the images I have seen but I still don't care for them on models. Thanks for all the hard work!
Randy_B posted:While we're on the subject of the Vision Line Niagara, what will the wheels look like? I don't particularly care for white walls and hope they make the wheels black or with the silver ring on the drivers like before. Do we know this definitively? I know the prototype had white rims in most of the images I have seen but I still don't care for them on models. Thanks for all the hard work!
I too don't care much for white walls on engine drivers either. The natural metal rims are okay. Most of the real Niagaras had white walls when fresh out of the ALCO plant and possibly after shopping but for most of their careers had no white trim whatsoever. The Timken rods were often polished by the roundhouse men.
Randy_B posted:While we're on the subject of the Vision Line Niagara, what will the wheels look like? I don't particularly care for white walls and hope they make the wheels black or with the silver ring on the drivers like before. Do we know this definitively? I know the prototype had white rims in most of the images I have seen but I still don't care for them on models. Thanks for all the hard work!
I don't think that the NYC steam locomotives, Niagara, Mohawk, Hudson, etc. had white/silver tires in regular service. Many of the photos published showing white/silver tires would have been the builder photos, with "enhancements" for effect.
Black engines have white walls and blackened side rods.
Gray engine doesn't have white walls and has polished rods.
Thanks for the info. How about one of the less popular black road numbers without white walls for more mass appeal? It physically hurt to pass on the Allegheny for the same reasons. I do like the blackened side rod trend though - those look very nice.
Way cool engine that I’m going to pass on because I don’t collet the road name. Having said that, I have Steve Nelson’s NKP #757 Berk on order and I hope it doesn’t have Phillips screws in the drive rods.
Landsteiner posted:Just FYI, if you order one from the LCCA, it's $1710, which includes a year's membership and free shipping. Deadline is March 12th. https://www.lionelcollectors.o...?id=1039&catId=6
Apparently that's Charles Ro's price as well.
No... that is NOT Charlie Ro's price. Nor is the price of most dealer sponsors here. $1,710 appears to be Lionel's MAP guideline. So that's what you're gonna see when quickly browsing print-ads and websites. Lionel can't dictate what dealer pricing is at the time-of-sale or pre-order -- only the minimum price they can advertise PUBLICLY. Depending on the dealer, if you add the product into the shopping cart or enter a "secret" discount code, you'll see another (lower) price which represents their current selling price (which may change over time). Please don't confuse MAP with any specific dealer's actual pre-order selling price.
David
"No... that is NOT Charlie Ro's price. "
It's indeed the price that comes up if you order it on-line from the Ro website by putting it in your cart. Now, one may be able to get a better price by phoning, but I didn't try that. I don't think I'm the one who is confused. Lots of agitated folks on this thread. Much ado about zilch. Apparently complaining is the new national sport .
Landsteiner posted:"No... that is NOT Charlie Ro's price. "
It's indeed the price that comes up if you order it on-line from the Ro website by putting it in your cart. Now, one may be able to get a better price by phoning, but I didn't try that. I don't think I'm the one who is confused. Lots of agitated folks on this thread. Much ado about zilch. Apparently complaining is the new national sport
Neil, David is correct. The lower price appears in the cart, at least it did for me.
As for calling others agitated, its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. 
Pete
"The lower price appears in the cart, at least it did for me. "
Well, that's a mystery.
"As for calling others agitated, its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black."
Well, I haven't called anyone stupid yet . And don't plan to, although it is tempting.
Landsteiner posted:"The lower price appears in the cart, at least it did for me. "
Well, that's a mystery.
You have to put it in the cart and then "proceed to checkout" to get the full discount.
You could have saved yourself over $100 and then as a courtesy Ro would send you catalogs for free. Just like the LCCA....but....you knew that already......I'm sure.
"You have to put it in the cart and then "proceed to checkout" to get the full discount."
Ah, I did not go that far. Assumed you just had to put it in the cart, but I was wrong about that. Thanks.
A lot of online retailers [not just model rr products] make you go deeper into the buying process to see the additional discounts, just saying.
It took me a bit to decide which Niagara I was buying, #6023. I'm not that all concerned about the screws, but I can understand why it is a no way for some. Also understand from the manufacturers side. Not much anyone can do with what you are given unless you feel like modifying what you buy, and sometimes that is not an option either. What can you do, its Friday. Get ready to enjoy the weekend and run some trains.
White walls are a deal breaker for me unfortunately and it's a shame. I would love to have one of these. The fasteners are disappointing since it looks like an easy thing to avoid and just screams 'toy' instead of model compared to a regular hex head fastener. I agree that they are probably using them because that is what was used on the first one several decades ago. At least that one did not have the white wall treatment. You can't please everyone I guess.
Repainting the tires is hardly a big deal. Put the engine in a cradle, apply power and hold a paint brush to the edge.
Bob's your uncle.
Even the screws are not a deal breaker but would have been nice if they would just look for something to replace them with.
Strange mix though. Whitewalls seen on Builders photos but with weathered rods?? Whitewalls with shiny rods and black tires with weathered rods would seem more appropriate.
Pete
Hot Water posted:Randy_B posted:While we're on the subject of the Vision Line Niagara, what will the wheels look like? I don't particularly care for white walls and hope they make the wheels black or with the silver ring on the drivers like before. Do we know this definitively? I know the prototype had white rims in most of the images I have seen but I still don't care for them on models. Thanks for all the hard work!
I don't think that the NYC steam locomotives, Niagara, Mohawk, Hudson, etc. had white/silver tires in regular service. Many of the photos published showing white/silver tires would have been the builder photos, with "enhancements" for effect.
Correct - the white/silverwalls were mostly a builders photo thing, often done on one side only for the shot. Nothing looks less modern-NYC than these things.
Some roads did, indeed, use the painted tires as a trim feature, but I have never seen many photos of the NYC Big Three (or others) in the modern era with trimmed wheels, and those only on an obviously new locomotive. The "natural" shine of the typical model tire material is just as bad.
Norton posted:Repainting the tires is hardly a big deal. Put the engine in a cradle, apply power and hold a paint brush to the edge.
Bob's your uncle.
Even the screws are not a deal breaker but would have been nice if they would just look for something to replace them with.
Strange mix though. Whitewalls seen on Builders photos but with weathered rods?? Whitewalls with shiny rods and black tires with weathered rods would seem more appropriate.
Pete
As many road numbers as they are making they could make two with shiny rods and white walls and two with black wheels and blackened rods and then the gray one. It seems like more mass appeal would mean more sales especially when it could be accomplished without too much trouble. I have three vision steam locos already and would love to add one of these.
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