Plywood thickness for benchwork

Great room and bench work.

Great room!  One comment.  I see the benchwork is fairly narrow and around the walls.  Are you planning on having any ability for a continuous loop?  Do you have a proposed track plan?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Great room!  One comment.  I see the benchwork is fairly narrow and around the walls.  Are you planning on having any ability for a continuous loop?  Do you have a proposed track plan?

Hey John,

yes, I do have a track plan. The picture only shows the first couple of sections. I plan on having 2 main loops and an upper loop. Here is my track plan. The only thing that has changed is that I modified the plan to integrate the 2nd and 3rd lower loops into 1 loop. I will also have an independent upper loop.

Tom

I'll just say WOW!  Looks great, clearly the room pictures didn't do it justice!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'll just say WOW!  Looks great, clearly the room pictures didn't do it justice!

I hope one day it will be wow! Right now I’m just hoping to get the bench work in place and get a loop of track going by spring.. before the farming and grass cutting starts. I have the first loop of track in hand. I have been working with a forum member on the track plan for months now. I could not have gotten this far without his help and patience.

Tom

Godale88,  You track plan looks really nice.  Your benchwork looks really good so far too.  As you move along, this book may give you some ideas and tips during construction. It's Model Railroad Benchwork by Linn Westcott.  It's a great reference book. Several editions out there.    Homasote:  Typically won't find this at the big box lumber stores.  You're more likely to find it by searching at small local lumber yards, or construction supply companies / stores.  Our layout is in Georgia.  We found it at Capital Material.  They r a construction supply co.  The local lumber yard here in WV also carries it. 

Just throwing this out for your track plan. I had mentioned this on another post. On our layout, we will have 2 main lines running pretty much side by side - level, updrades, downgrades, etc.  To give it a little more interesting look visually, we've varied the heights of the 2 tracks slightly.  On the horizontal areas, one track is at +1/4" elevation and the other at +1/2".    On grades we changed the point where each track reaches the top (+7.25") by a diff of several straight sections (~18").  This changes the slope slightly and results in a nice visual offset between tracks going up and down grades.  Lay some track side by side and take a look. See what you think.

@TomSuperO posted:

Godale88,  You track plan looks really nice.  Your benchwork looks really good so far too.  As you move along, this book may give you some ideas and tips during construction. It's Model Railroad Benchwork by Linn Westcott.  It's a great reference book. Several editions out there.    Homasote:  Typically won't find this at the big box lumber stores.  You're more likely to find it by searching at small local lumber yards, or construction supply companies / stores.  Our layout is in Georgia.  We found it at Capital Material.  They r a construction supply co.  The local lumber yard here in WV also carries it.

Just throwing this out for your track plan. I had mentioned this on another post. On our layout, we will have 2 main lines running pretty much side by side - level, updrades, downgrades, etc.  To give it a little more interesting look visually, we've varied the heights of the 2 tracks slightly.  On the horizontal areas, one track is at +1/4" elevation and the other at +1/2".    On grades we changed the point where each track reaches the top (+7.25") by a diff of several straight sections (~18").  This changes the slope slightly and results in a nice visual offset between tracks going up and down grades.  Lay some track side by side and take a look. See what you think.

Thank you. I had alot of help from a member here. Alot of time and patience he has!

I would love to have grade changes to add depth. I just don't know how to model them as of now. We have tried some things in SCARM, but I am not sure how to translate that onto the layout physically. I am not even sure how to lay track yet... I am fixing to get a crash course soon I hope. Its definitely going to be a baptism by fire. I have to figure out how to use Atlas flex track as well as how to custom cut and fit Atlas track so everything works out.

Tom

In Linn Westcott's book on Model Railroading Benchwork he describes what he calls "Open Grid Construction." It allows for rather easy construction of grades and various levels. I built my layout in 1987 using 1x4's for framing and legs and 1/2 inch A-C plywood for the sub-roadbed. At that time Atlas track was not available, so we used Gargraves Phantom Rail flex track and Ross Custom switches powered by Tortoise under table mount switch machines. The layout is 13' x 40' in size and can accomodate several locomotives at a time with hidden storage yards made available by the open grid construction. No Homasote, track was mounted over Midwest cork roadbed. Please consider using open grid construction as it allows for various interconnecting levels of operation. It also makes for great scenery options. In my opinion, there is no need for 2x4's or 3/4 inch plywood. They just add cost.

@triplex posted:

In Linn Westcott's book on Model Railroading Benchwork he describes what he calls "Open Grid Construction." It allows for rather easy construction of grades and various levels. I built my layout in 1987 using 1x4's for framing and lega and 1/2 inch A-C plywood for the sub-roadbed. At that time Atlas track was not available, so we used Gargraves Phantom Rail flex track and Ross Custom switches powered by Tortoise under table mount switch machines. The layout is 13' x 40' in size and cam accomodate several locomotives at a time with hidden storage yards made available by the open grid construction. No Homasote, track was mounted over Midwest cork roadbed. Please consider using open grid construction as it allows for various interconnecting levels of operation. It also makes for great scenery options. In my opinion, there is no need for 2x4's or 3/4 inch plywood. They just add cost.

Guess I need to look at what open grid construction is and how it works.

GoDale03,

When you get ready to do your grades and want to talk about how to figure them out, and how to do track elevation offsets, and easements (for gradually curving the track into a turn) send me an email with "trains" in the subject line (so i don't blow it away) and i'll go over with you how we did ours and tips and tricks.  My email is in my profile.   The 1st thing you'll need to decide is what % grades do you want ideally and what % grades can you live with.   

Our layout is all superO track,  only 036 curves were made, so for 95% of the curves we need we have to bend them ourselves.  You'll be ok w Atlas flex track.

Tom

Thank you Tom, I will let you know when I get to that point. Dumb question.... It looks like for the open grid you do not cover your benchwork with Plywood?

Also, I was reading Dennis Brennan's Realistic layout book and he mentioned that Homostote is not widely used anymore so it can be hard to find and expensive. He mentions using 4x2 ceiling tiles, masking taping them together and then painting. Has anyone used this method? I can certainly see some of the drawback to this method...

- It could be hard to level

- It probably won't hold screws very well

- It is softer than homosote ( although I am designing my layout so I don't have to crawl around on it)

The Pros.... it is certainly cheaper ( one $60 box will cover 80 square feet)

- It looks like it will be easier to work with than homosote.

Figured I would see what you guys think

Tom

Well, having worked with acoustic ceiling tiles for their intended purpose, I personally think they'd be a poor substitute for Homasote.  They're way softer, they wouldn't hold track screws at all, at least IMO, and if you put any pressure on them, you'll have dents.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, having worked with acoustic ceiling tiles for their intended purpose, I personally think they'd be a poor substitute for Homasote.  They're way softer, they wouldn't hold track screws at all, at least IMO, and if you put any pressure on them, you'll have dents.

Hey John,

Yeah, that is what I was afraid of. I have called around to places 2 hours from my house and farther. No homosote anywhere. I even went to Homostote's website and you can search for vendors based on your location. Like I said I called stores listed that were a reasonable distances away and the ones I have spoken with don't carry it anymore due to low demand.

Is there any other alternative that might be available to me. I absolutely hear what you guys are saying and why you recommend using it. I will be honest... I do not want to have to drive for hours to have to get this stuff.... and it is pretty expensive too at $50 a board. Thanks

Tom

Out of curiosity, I checked the Menards website.  Homasote is about $37 per sheet.  I entered the zip code from your profile; it gave a delivery estimate of $462.  I don't know if that's per sheet.   If it's for a bunch of sheets, it still ain't cheap, but it might be worth it if you really want to use that product.

There's plenty in stock at my local store. 

@Mallard4468 posted:

Out of curiosity, I checked the Menards website.  Homasote is about $37 per sheet.  I entered the zip code from your profile; it gave a delivery estimate of $462.  I don't know if that's per sheet.   If it's for a bunch of sheets, it still ain't cheap, but it might be worth it if you really want to use that product.

There's plenty in stock at my local store. 

Wow, that is out of my price range!

Yeah, I would rather do without than spend the cost to have it shipped here. Truth is I wasn't going to use it at all... but it seemed highly recommended so I did my due diligence. I have to be realistic on what I can afford to spend. I know model railroading is not at all a cheap hobby, and I have an ambitious layout plan. The way I look at it is that I would rather spend the $500 that it would cost to ship it on more track the layout.

Forget the Homasote. It doesn't hold screws very well and cutting it is a mess. Just use cork or rubber roadbed under your track over the 1/2 inch plywood. The open spaces using open grid construction allow for great scenery. If you want a town or a switch yard, then put a piece of plywood over the grid area. As for grades do not exceed 2%. So, that means you need 300 inches to create 6 inches of grade. Sounds like a lot, but you can include curves as well as straight track. To build the grade you attach risers to your open grid benchwork.  I took two 8 foot 1x4's and created a "T" buy screwing them into each other at right angles. You then put one end at the beginning of your grade and the other end 8 feet down the line elevated to a two per cent grade. Then you add the risers every 16 inches to support the sub-roadbed of 1/2 inch plywood. The layout was built with drywall screws. No glue or nails. The photos show what open grid is capable of.

@triplex posted:

Forget the Homasote. It doesn't hold screws very well and cutting it is a mess. Just use cork or rubber roadbed under your track over the 1/2 inch plywood. The open spaces using open grid construction allow for great scenery. If you want a town or a switch yard, then put a piece of plywood over the grid area. As for grades do not exceed 2%. So, that means you need 300 inches to create 6 inches of grade. Sounds like a lot, but you can include curves as well as straight track. To build the grade you attach risers to your open grid benchwork.  I took two 8 foot 1x4's and created a "T" buy screwing them into each other at right angles. You then put one end at the beginning of your grade and the other end 8 feet down the line elevated to a two per cent grade. Then you add the risers every 16 inches to support the sub-roadbed of 1/2 inch plywood. The layout was built with drywall screws. No glue or nails. The photos show what open grid is capable of.

Wow, that is beautiful!!!

I am still kind of confused by the term "open grid". I had planned on covering my entire layout in 1/2" plywood and then creating my grade by using the woodland scenic's incline declines to start the beginning and ending of the incline and decline and then use 2x4 pieces cut until i reached the full height. Similar to what JD Stucks did with his layout. If I am going to go with open grid, do not cover the entire benchwork in plywood? Thanks

Tom

Tom, No, you do NOT cover the table top with plywood, homasote or anything else. The only place for plywood is the sub-roadbed and any place you want to place yards, towns, and accessories. The grades are built with vertical risers attached to the table framework. It creates all kinds of opportunities for scenery such as rivers, mountains as well as hidden storage yards. I noticed on your plan the tracks are quite close to each other. They should be 4-4.5 inches apart center rail to center rail. Do you have an opportunity to go to York this April? If you do you could discuss your room size and potential layout with Steve Brenneisen from Ross Custom switches. He designed my layout 38 years ago. If you bought track and switches from him he might help you design an ideal layout for your space. Steve is a great guy and was the founding sponsor for the OGR Forum. And please, no 2x4 lumber on the layout. Totally unnecessary.

There are other sound deadening boards that folks have mentioned that are "similar" to Homasote.  I have never personally looked at them, so I don't know how "similar" they might be.

GoDale03,   several things i agree and disagree with:  Homasote:  Yes it is very messy to cut. It's compressed paper so it throws a LOT of dust when u cut it. We cut it outside with either a circular saw or table saw.  Yes it holds screws just fine and tight. No issues. On a piece of 9" long track we will use a couple of 3/4" screws (no predrilling) for track to homasote and a couple of 1" screws (pre drill holes) for track to homasote to plywood subroadbed.   Just wanted to throw in my 2cents and experience w it.   Understand your dilemma in finding it.  You're not alone.

Hey OGR,  what a great feature research article.  (Maybe this has already been done)  Testing various materials for subroadbed use:  types, thkness, # plys, osb's, strength, cost, sagging, sound transfer, sources, etc, pros and cons       AND various materials available out there for roadbed use:   material type (homasote, rubber, cork, ceiling tiles, foam board, new sound deadening materials on the market,  etc),  thickness, soundproofing ability, ability to hold screws, cutting, workability, cost, adaptability to incorporate scenery, sources, etc, pros and cons.   You get it.  This would give people a standardized guide they could use to make an informed decision to select those materials that works best for their situation.  Give them informed accurate options.  Just sayn.

To each his/her own.  1x1’s, 1x2’s, 1x4’s!  Lynn Wescott saved me a lot of $$.  Yes, you could stand on it if we’re covered in OSB!  I cut plywood for the track bed and the rest with foam.  Easy to shape!  The track (for me)  no grades, but the scenery does!  Cuts and fills.  Pics are 2 years old.

@TomSuperO posted:

GoDale03,   several things i agree and disagree with:  Homasote:  Yes it is very messy to cut. It's compressed paper so it throws a LOT of dust when u cut it. We cut it outside with either a circular saw or table saw.  Yes it holds screws just fine and tight. No issues. On a piece of 9" long track we will use a couple of 3/4" screws (no predrilling) for track to homasote and a couple of 1" screws (pre drill holes) for track to homasote to plywood subroadbed.   Just wanted to throw in my 2cents and experience w it.   Understand your dilemma in finding it.  You're not alone.

Hey OGR,  what a great feature research article.  (Maybe this has already been done)  Testing various materials for subroadbed use:  types, thkness, # plys, osb's, strength, cost, sagging, sound transfer, sources, etc, pros and cons       AND various materials available out there for roadbed use:   material type (homasote, rubber, cork, ceiling tiles, foam board, new sound deadening materials on the market,  etc),  thickness, soundproofing ability, ability to hold screws, cutting, workability, cost, adaptability to incorporate scenery, sources, etc, pros and cons.   You get it.  This would give people a standardized guide they could use to make an informed decision to select those materials that works best for their situation.  Give them informed accurate options.  Just sayn.

Re cutting homasote - it can be a mess, but I learned (after I made my mess) that using a knife blade in a saber saw (no teeth) can cut it with minimal mess.

Homasote is indeed a personal choice - I've gone with and without.  Next time will probably be without.

Re doing a feature article - great idea!  The work is being done and the pictures are being taken anyway, so why not share the experience and get paid a few bucks for the effort.  (It's not much, but the effort beyond what is already being done is minimal.)  If you're interested, contact @Allan Miller - he's very helpful.

Re open grid or covering everything with plywood... Great layouts have been built both ways.  It really depends on a number of factors, including whether or not you think you might want to change the track arrangement down the road or if you plan to have a lot of city areas or plan to use a lot of Lionel/MTH accessories.  If any of these fit your plans, you might be happier creating a flat tabletop.  If you want lots of hills and valleys, open grid might be the way to go.  My 2 cents - since you're learning as you go, a fully-decked tabletop is more forgiving.

GoDale03,  In the pictures i attached, you'll notice that the support joists are all 1"x4" lumber on edge and screwed (from below) to the flange on the main L-girder below them. You'd be amazed how strong this is. If i threw a piece of flat plywood over it, my son and i could both crawl / walk on it - that's a little over 400lbs. You'll also notice that the grade elevations are created by using risers (1"x 3" or 1"x 4") boards with 1" x 3/4"  "cleats"  both glued and screwed to the tops of the risers.  (The only glue used is on the L-girders and for attaching the cleats to the risers.) While i wouldn't try to walk on my graded sections, i wouldn't hesitate to kneel or lean on them.

The open grid / cookie cutter method imho places more demand on you're scenery making abilities. All those gaps between the subroadbed cut outs are filled with various types of scenery forming materials - which now takes you into a whole set of things to learn.  Woodland Scenics makes some great products for turning these gaps into beautiful scenery.  I'd suggest you watch a bunch of their videos (available free on their site) on how to create scenery from this style of layout and also some of the great videos online showing how the scenery is formed on an open grid / cookie cutter layout.  You will learn a LOT from watching as much as you can.    Creating good looking scenery from a flat plywood surface also works and there's tons of videos of that as well.  (a lot of foam board is used in these situations which may help solve you're homasote substitute problem.)   Watch a lot of videos.   The best method is the one that works for YOU and the goals you wish to achieve on your layout and that YOU are happy with.  Period.

Tom     

@FIREMANCHRIS posted:

To each his/her own.  1x1’s, 1x2’s, 1x4’s!  Lynn Wescott saved me a lot of $$.  Yes, you could stand on it if we’re covered in OSB!  I cut plywood for the track bed and the rest with foam.  Easy to shape!  The track (for me)  no grades, but the scenery does!  Cuts and fills.  Pics are 2 years old.

That's excellent work.  You mentioned that the pics are 2 years old - do you have any recent updates that you can post?

Posted just to show what anyone can do, not to hijack the thread.  Search B&M Conn. Sub. for pics.  Sorry for any intrusion.

@Godale03 posted:

Wow, that is out of my price range!

Yeah, I would rather do without than spend the cost to have it shipped here. Truth is I wasn't going to use it at all... but it seemed highly recommended so I did my due diligence. I have to be realistic on what I can afford to spend. I know model railroading is not at all a cheap hobby, and I have an ambitious layout plan. The way I look at it is that I would rather spend the $500 that it would cost to ship it on more track the layout.

NOT trying to talk you into homasote, and I understand how important the budget is, but...

Money that you spend on the room, benchwork, and wiring is spent only once.  If you enjoy the results, the cost will soon be forgotten, but if you skimp on any of these you'll kick yourself over and over.  Don't ask how I know this.

The pics above show open grid tehnique. If you wanted to add grades to the benchwork you would simply add risers (vertical pieces) attached to the boards on edge. Nothing to it but to do it. A flat layout is to me not real. The world is not flat.

Thank you for all the pictures of the open grid style of layout. I now understand. Thank you all!

I can tell by the responses that this is a very popular building style. My problem is that i have already started working on a benchwork frame and as you can see by the pictures I have posted earlier in this thread that I am framing using 2x4's. My father who is a retired carpenter is helping my build it so that it is level and plumb from the start. I showed him some pictures of some layouts and he advised that this method will provide me stability and strength. He is not however a train guy nor has he ever built a layout. He is simply following my measurements according to my track plan. Obviously I didn't understand about the open grid style. I do not believe the way I am constructing so far that my benchwork would allow for open grid and my 2x4's are set parallel to each other and not in a grid pattern. It was being built with the intention of covering it in plywood... obviously this is the wrong way to approach this. Like alot of people these days I watched alot of youtube videos of layouts such as Eric Siegel's layout and JD Stucks build and RPB Trains and they all started with a frame and then covered in plywood. So I was just trying to follow that in my design. Yes... I will address the elephant in the room.... I am using 2x4's which is over kill, but they were what I considered cheap and they are straight, so I am not having to deal with warped boards. Also I do not have to do alot of cutting and making legs as the 2x4's are strong. I figured this simplified the build some. Anyway.... just some insight into my thought process.

Another thing to add is that I am as clueless to scenery as I am to benchwork building so maybe the open grid is not the best for me at this point in my layout building journey? That being said, I am working with someone with experience in layouts so I am not flying totally blind... but he is not "telling" me that I must build it a certain way... it was more along the lines of guiding me on the journey allowing me to make the decisions based off of his suggestions and very helpful insights. I was hesitant to post in the public forums because sometimes I feel that I get too much information and my mind just sort of glosses over and I get the deer in the headlights look. I know there is so many helpful folks and information here, but sometimes, at least for me too much information can be a bad thing as I just find myself overwhelmed and stuck in the mud so to speak. I have purchased some of the books that have been recommended in this thread and am reading them. However, understand that I have been working for months just to get to this point. The room has existed for 2 years now. Up until I accepted some help in design planning I was lost and didn't know where to start so I just didn't start anything because I was paralyzed by the details and the unknown. I have been collecting model trains and running temporary "layouts" on the floor for years. So while I am not new to trains, I am new to the layout process. I am just tired of always looking at my trains neatly tucked away in their boxes and just want some place to run trains. Even if I had all of the knowledge learned in these posts I am sure that I would have made mistakes. I guess I am feeling like I have already made some big mistakes and I am just started with the framework of the layout. I was so excited Saturday evening that I had finally started working towards my dream and finally making progress. However over the last few days, I feel anxious and little embarrassed that I may already be setting myself up for disappointment and frustration. From how I am building to my track design, to the fact that homosote is the most important aspect of a successful layout and because of its scarcity I was not planning on using it. It sounds like even if I have to order it and have it delivered from across the country I should do it no matter the cost. Then you have some that say it isn't necessary and then I am lost in a back and forth debate on homosote or no homosote... or do it this way or do it that way. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that all the advice given is with the utmost sincerity and best of intentions. I appreciate that. But now I feel that I am in a must stop construction and re-evaluate my entire plan I have worked months on. Maybe even to the point of tearing up what I have already constructed. I know that some of the Youtube guys had help from local train clubs they belong to, but in my area of southern maryland there are no clubs close to me. I know there are some clubs closer to the PA boarder. I think the closet club to me is an hour or so away and it is an HO club.

Believe me I am not trying to rush through this process. I thought I had done alot of homework and had a good idea of how to proceed. Now I am completely second guessing myself. I have track and wood already purchased and have already "broken" ground. I know there is more than one way to build a layout, but so far I think I have not done it any of the ways you guys would have. Again, I know you are trying to help me build this the best way I can. Now I have gotten myself discouraged again.... LOL! Of course I would love elevated runs and tunnels and all that beautiful layout features. I guess I just figured I could work and learn as I go... but it sounds like I am setting myself up for failure and disappointment, as it appears that my track plan is designed for a table top style and not open grid. I mean, the benchwork framing I have up now is already level, plumb and screwed to the wall. Should I just abandon this whole layout and start over?

Tom

@Godale03 posted:

Thank you for all the pictures of the open grid style of layout. I now understand. Thank you all!

...I do not believe the way I am constructing so far that my benchwork would allow for open grid and my 2x4's are set parallel to each other and not in a grid pattern. It was being built with the intention of covering it in plywood... obviously this is the wrong way to approach this. Like alot of people these days I watched alot of youtube videos of layouts such as Eric Siegel's layout and JD Stucks build and RPB Trains and they all started with a frame and then covered in plywood. So I was just trying to follow that in my design. ...

... I thought I had done alot of homework and had a good idea of how to proceed. Now I am completely second guessing myself. I have track and wood already purchased and have already "broken" ground. I know there is more than one way to build a layout, but so far I think I have not done it any of the ways you guys would have. Again, I know you are trying to help me build this the best way I can. Now I have gotten myself discouraged again.... LOL! Of course I would love elevated runs and tunnels and all that beautiful layout features. I guess I just figured I could work and learn as I go... but it sounds like I am setting myself up for failure and disappointment.

Don't get discouraged.  You are making progress.  Making mistakes is part of the process.

As far as open grid vs. plywood top, there is no "obviously wrong" way to approach it.  As you're learning, if you ask a half dozen train guys for an opinion, you'll get a dozen different answers.  You've seen that great results can be obtained with either method.  Chris (RBP), Jason, and Eric all know what they're doing, and so do the proponents of open grid.  Benchwork design, plywood thickness, and use of homasote are a lot like discussing religion or politics - lots of strongly held opinions, and most of them contain some truth and some BS.

Perhaps it would be helpful to pause construction and take a step back.  Maybe build a small experimental layout - 4x8 or so, or a small portion of your plan - and try both approaches to see which you like better.  As long as you don't glue anything together and don't ballast the track, most of the materials can be reused. 

You mentioned that you're an hour from the nearest club and that it's HO.  Driving an hour each way to learn valuable information is a small price to pay.  Concepts of layout construction apply across scales.  Most clubs welcome visitors, especially if you tell them what you're trying to learn.  Train people generally enjoy showing off what they've done, and are open to sharing lessons learned.  And if they're grumpy or unfriendly, go somewhere else! 

Hi Tom,

I just read through all the responses. A lot of good information. First, I would not tear it down and start over. I think you have a nice track plan and you bought the lumber so keep going. I would recommend you look at OSB as an alternative to plywood. It works well and is easier on the budget. I have used both and prefer OSB. To put something over the OSB....homosote is great but gets expensive. Soundboard is a great alternative, but the cost has gone up. When I started building, it was around $10 a sheet. Two years ago it jumped to $40, and then last summer back down to $20. It is similar to ceiling tiles and both hold gargraves track screws well enough. You can use cork or foam roadbed instead of soundboard. I did that on my HO layout. However, on all my O and Standard Gauge layouts, I use soundboard and foam roadbed on top of that.  The woodland scenic risers seem to work well although I have not used them yet. As far as scenery, open grid is easier, but with so many options you can make great scenery with what you have planned.  I used 2x4, OSB, and soundboard on my present layout and no warpage issues. Straight and level. Keep going !!!

Bob

The 2x4 cross pieces would certainly be able to support any risers that would allow you to have grades and different levels. Your track plan is good although if all the track is one one level there is almost no room for towns, accessories and scenery as I see it. What is the purpose of your layout? Is it to service various industries, towns or farms? If it is then where is there room for these entities? To my eye it looks like way too much track.