Post War Sets That I Never Understood

Big John...  i have never thought of that.  N&w pass cars would have been great...

The 746 space set i did not understand.  Why pull that with steam, looking to the space age, why pull with a 746?  Should have been an f3 set or something modern.

Hey Big john - good post

I know the whole commuter train thing but I always felt the 2341 JC FM should have been pulling some massive blue collar freight set with heavy operating cars 

N&W aluminum striped 2500 series cars in a Super O 746 set - my heart is racing - nice 

Joe S

Lionel was probably very contemporary with a freight set powered by the 746 Class J. The Norfolk and Western was bumping those fleet northerns of remaining passenger runs just about that time . 

N&W passenger cars were smooth sided and Lionel did not have such a car in its arsenal of rolling stock. It would have been a nice Powhattan Arrow set I agree. 

Big John, the 746 although a great locomotive, and an all time postwar favorite, came along a little too late, kids at that time were into space toys and rockets, train sales were already on the decline. Lionel knew this, and actively sought their place in the space and military toys that children sought......

746 does look like a rocket with that nose cone...  

Super O Bob posted:

746 does look like a rocket with that nose cone...  

my heart went pitter patter when I got mine!....that's one of the bucket list locos!

How you doing Steve? Great observation. I think at the time Lionel was more into eye candy than pleasing real train people.

The early Scout sets:

I can understand making a budget line, but why make it with couplers incompatible with the rest of Lionel?

Rusty

Those Scout couplers were not very well thought out! The new tooling alone should have been a non-starter! Were there even any actual add-on Scout cars?

Rusty Traque posted:

... but why make it with couplers incompatible with the rest of Lionel?

$$. They were arguably simple, coupled automatically, and could be uncoupled with the manumatic device. 

Big John Henry posted:

Why was the 746 N&W used to pull freight consist.

Big John,
Probably because in real life after the N&W bumped the Class J locos from passenger service they were indeed put into freight service.

Being a kid in postwar times, I think most boys preferred "impressive" engines pulling freight cars. I was the "oddball", in that I liked passenger cars best (easier to imagine you were riding in one). But a Lionel streamlined passenger car cost $10. each back then (about $100. in today's money). So I was stuck with my Hudson pulling freight. Guess what I have now? 

But not a lone oddball, l wanted the, rarely seen by me, Marx 3/16 passenger cars, and bigger locos (#333), but struggled along, until a venture into HO, with a #999 and freight cars from two sets, and had not even the hopper, flats, or stock cars. 

Tinplate Art - were there add on cars? - Yes and no.  My first set was the Scout set below which I received for Christmas when I was 4.

  I had a stocking stuffer from my Grandmother - an add on tank car 

...and that was all she wrote as far as add on cars were concerned.  The reason for the "no" part is that some of the other Scout sets had a tank car in place of either the boxcar or the gondola.

  Those couplers were a source of continuing frustration for me.  Finally, in 1956, I decided correct coupler or no I was going to add a car to my train.  My allowance was 25 cents a week and I saved for most of the year until I had enough money to purchase a #3620 rotating searchlight car.  My Dad took me down to the hobby shop and when the owner put the car on the counter Dad said, "The couplers don't match your train set."  Dad said I looked him straight in the eye and in a very measured tone said " I----Don't----Care."  Pop said it was at that moment he realized I really was interested in trains....the upshot was Christmas morning Santa left me a brand new #1615 switcher to pull the searchlight car around the layout....and it's all been downhill since then. 

LIRR Steamer posted: 

N&W passenger cars were smooth sided and Lionel did not have such a car in its arsenal of rolling stock. 

Although this may be true, I then think of all the decorated cars that Lionel has done that have no connection with reality; "Peanuts", "Halloween", different food-brand cars, "John Deere", etc, etc, etc.    I don't want to high-jack this thread, but "foobie" cars, (as they're referred to in the N scale world), have often been discussed regarding Micro Trains penchant for doing the same thing...

At least those (non-existent) N&Ws would have been based on something... 

Good topic.

Mark in Oregon

LIRR Steamer posted:

N&W passenger cars were smooth sided and Lionel did not have such a car in its arsenal of rolling stock. 

You could probably put something together with 2400 series cars, though I'm not sure how they would have looked with the J...   

Mitch 

I'm not contesting, just adding to the thoughts...

Getting the loco into your hands was step one. Affordability is important here.

Getting you to return for passenger cars is now more likely as a possible step two.

  Rich, you'd buy them anyhow, poor you might be more willing and able, seeing the total cost is now divided into "two lower payments".  

Passenger service was also on it's way down. Freight still doing well. 

Pride: Possible future employment is another factor. The RRs were a good place to be and even as a kid you knew that. You were reminded often by elders the RR built the country by freight, and helped win the last war with it as well. Stick engineer right up there with F.Dept , P.Dept, Soldier, etc.

Not everyone gets too drive, but the docks pay well too.  Hard labor was a badge of honor in it's own right.

  I think good designers know this kinda stuff intuativly.  It's mental preperation does us justice

I wanted passenger cars too, but never got a single one. I had near a dozen engines. Cost was the issue. The freight a better deal (in parents eyes )

Robert S. Butler posted:

 I----Don't----Care."  Pop said it was at that moment he realized I really was interested in trains....the upshot was Christmas morning Santa left me a brand new #1615 switcher to pull the searchlight car around the layout....and it's all been downhill since then. 

Great story!  

Strummer posted:

LIRR Steamer posted: 

N&W passenger cars were smooth sided and Lionel did not have such a car in its arsenal of rolling stock. 

Although this may be true, I then think of all the decorated cars that Lionel has done that have no connection with reality; "Peanuts", "Halloween", different food-brand cars, "John Deere", etc, etc, etc.    I don't want to high-jack this thread, but "foobie" cars, (as they're referred to in the N scale world), have often been discussed regarding Micro Trains penchant for doing the same thing...

At least those (non-existent) N&Ws would have been based on something... 

Good topic.

Mark in Oregon

Hi mark...  i dont lump in the foobies with this...  N&W pass cars would have been plausible for postwar...  so i agree (and dont have any disney or other stuff) but i like my favorite road names applied to tooling to allow me to run great looking roadname trains.

I get excited thinking about n&w aluminum streamliners behind a #746...  thats a cool train and would look great, even though they may be ribbed not smooth cars.

I do however make exception for the marvin the martian rocket launching flatcar.  That is real class...

"This makes me very angry, very angry indeed." On numerous occasions, Marvin has tried to destroy the Earth with his "Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator" (sometimes pronounced "Illudium Pu-36" or "Uranium Pu-36").

Kids these days dont understand the power of ACME on looney toons.  What great fun coyote and roadrunner...

  Political correctness ruined cartoons. They don't show them anymore. Kids hardly know the characters now  

  I recall my full blood Ojibwe Great Grandmother loving the goofy Indians.

Every mascot with headdress insures the culture is not forgotten imo.

I was prideful of the choices

... Juz sayin' 

I wish they would have finished that LT run off better. The Mavin car HAD to have a more prototypical engine out front to make sense. So, I figs it meself.

Now...

...how to make a whistle go foooo fooo? 🤔

I like "train's as art" and art on trains more than day glow colors of mpc. At least on a shelf.  Which is really part of why many foo foo's were made imo; shelf queens to fill space.

  In the 70s a completed postwar collection couldn't quite fill the walls of a decent basement yet without lots of doubles.

Adriatic posted:

  Political correctness ruined cartoons. They don't show them anymore. Kids hardly know the characters now  

  I recall my full blood Ojibwe Great Grandmother loving the goofy Indians.

Every mascot with headdress insures the culture is not forgotten imo.

I was prideful of the choices

... Juz sayin' 

I wish they would have finished that LT run off better. The Mavin car HAD to have a more prototypical engine out front to make sense. So, I figs it meself.

Now...

...how to make a whistle go foooo fooo? 🤔

I like "train's as art" and art on trains more than day glow colors of mpc. At least on a shelf.  Which is really part of why many foo foo's were made imo; shelf queens to fill space.

  In the 70s a completed postwar collection couldn't quite fill the walls of a decent basement yet without lots of doubles.

I dig the globe there are earth...  righteous layout!

I'm with you Super O Bob ...I too had to make room for Marvin's Earth Stomper.

The Girls Train has to be added to the list in my opinion... I mean I understand the sexism behind it to an extent, but... why? I assume their salespeople were familiar with the moms buying trains, which would probably be the same moms buying for any little girls who might be interested in trains. So arguably the colorful cars of the PW era already appealed to women and thus their wasn't really any point in doing new cars...at most maybe some more "feminine" ad copy, taking out ads in women's magazines would have been a better investment. Replicate one of those ads of an engineer holding a train, only with an ex-wartime female engineer, "Just like mom ran during the war", maybe talk about all the women workers at Lionel, or emphasize the "family" aspect of the hobby. No idea why they didn't;t realize there was, at most, a market for a few "girly" cars so that sis could join in... surely they must have known they were aiming for a pretty niche market?

And even if they wanted to do a girls train, why on earth did the make the loco entirely pink? Black with pink striping would have improved the look of that set immensely.

Big John Henry posted:

I do not know why I never brought this up before. Why was the 746 N&W used to pull freight consist. Those sets would ave been desirable with any post war twin motor diesel or heavy steam available during that time period 1957 - 1960. The aluminum cars could have been striped N&W. Just my two cents tonight.

S.P.

I suspect cost to manufacture and purchase was a major factor in Lionel's decision process.  I was fortunate and ultimately had two locos growing up, and some freight cars, including those that came with the original Super "O" steamer set that I received on Christmas, 1960.  Virtually all of my friends had a Lionel set but I only knew two people my age who had a passenger set, which I would have loved to own -- but, they were expensive, and somewhat inflexible from an operating standpoint because they properly required a matching road name for the loco. Additionally, those two peers with the passenger sets had fathers who were clearly hobbyists themselves, because they had huge layouts for the neighborhood and time period. Each also had an extensive roster. Additionally, one was an only child who had a detailed layout with scenery  that literally covered half of the basement of the family's bungalow home.   His father was also an excavator who worked exclusively outdoors and was home in the winter.   He enjoyed spending much of that time working on the layout, often kneeling on the tabletop working on scenery.

I also suspect that freight consists gave the manufacturers a chance to use some leftover inventory, or make an extra run or two of a car in current production using the same or different decoration for a set. Unquestionably, where I grew up, aluminum passenger trains were quite expensive for the disposable income of the average family. 

Robert S. Butler posted:

I'm with you Super O Bob ...I too had to make room for Marvin's Earth Stomper.

Best...  actioncar...  ever...

It is always easy to be a "Monday morning quarterback," and hindsight is usually 20/20. The folks at Lionel did a pretty good job cranking out trains and accessories that are still prized by their adult owners, witness Robert S. Butler's nicely preserved Lionel Scout set. Let us not be too judgmental!

Tinplate Art posted:

The folks at Lionel did a pretty good job cranking out trains and accessories that are still prized by their adult owners...

Art, so true!  The durability over decades is really a testament to their design and manufacture. Sure, there were a few that didn't fully stand the test of time, but not too many.  What other "toy" has held up so well over time?

As to the passenger train offerings, I also suspect that the selection of a particular road name would somewhat limit the appeal in different parts of the country.  ("Lionel Lines", I'm sure, was in part designed to address this problem, and, of course employ savvy brand management.). A freight train could be far more generic it its acceptability.

Redshirt214 posted:

The Girls Train has to be added to the list in my opinion... And even if they wanted to do a girls train, why on earth did the make the loco entirely pink? Black with pink striping would have improved the look of that set immensely.

You make some excellent points.  I'd have to carefully examine the individual pieces in the set, but to Lionel, it was likely an attempt that made sense because they were just painting items that that established tooling.  That was also the pastel period of the 50's, and pink flamingos were the rage if I recall correctly. Didn't Elvis have a pink Cadillac?  But, your choice is certainly well placed.

Anyone have any girls 6464 box cars they want to unload?

Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

As to the passenger train offerings, I also suspect that the selection of a particular road name would somewhat limit the appeal in different parts of the country.  ("Lionel Lines", I'm sure, was in part designed to address this problem, and, of course employ savvy brand management.). A freight train could be far more generic it its acceptability.

Lionel HO had Passenger cars in prototype colors. No Lionel Lines there. There’s an old T&M book on Lionel archives. One item shown is the first MPC era Lionel aluminum passenger car painted SP Daylight. As I recall, they weren’t sure how well the paint would adhere to the aluminum. Maybe in the mid-50’s Lionel couldn’t economically paint an aluminum passenger car and still sell it at a reasonable price?

Sam Jumper posted:

Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

... ("Lionel Lines", I'm sure, was in part designed to address this problem, and, of course employ savvy brand management.)...

Lionel HO had Passenger cars in prototype colors. No Lionel Lines there. There’s an old T&M book on Lionel archives. One item shown is the first MPC era Lionel aluminum passenger car painted SP Daylight. As I recall, they weren’t sure how well the paint would adhere to the aluminum. Maybe in the mid-50’s Lionel couldn’t economically paint an aluminum passenger car and still sell it at a reasonable price?

Sam,

As to painting Aluminum, you make a good point!  The painting process would add cost over the extruded aluminum, and the passenger cars were already pricey. The point that I was making is "Lionel Lines" might appeal to NYC fans, Pensy fans, UP fans, SP fans, etc.  Those same "Lionel Lines" cars could be sold and run behind the classic Santa Fe Diesels, or behind a Pensy GG-1.  I actually keep a set of Lionel Lines aluminum passenger cars in my train room and run them behind an assortment of road named locomotives for guests, even at times when I have the boxed matching passenger cars.  That way I don't have to unbox the cars if I don't plan on keeping that set in the train room. Certainly not prototypical, though convenient.

Also, didn't Riverossi make much of the Lionel HO?  

Bottom line, passenger sets were out of the price range and budget for most of the families where I grew up, and, I suspect that was true for many of Lionel's customers at that time.  In fact, many of the Mom's in the neighborhood were just getting their first cars as their husbands bought a new car -- The Mom's car was now likely paid off.

Sam Jumper posted:

Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:

As to the passenger train offerings, I also suspect that the selection of a particular road name would somewhat limit the appeal in different parts of the country.  ("Lionel Lines", I'm sure, was in part designed to address this problem, and, of course employ savvy brand management.). A freight train could be far more generic it its acceptability.

Lionel HO had Passenger cars in prototype colors. No Lionel Lines there. There’s an old T&M book on Lionel archives. One item shown is the first MPC era Lionel aluminum passenger car painted SP Daylight. As I recall, they weren’t sure how well the paint would adhere to the aluminum. Maybe in the mid-50’s Lionel couldn’t economically paint an aluminum passenger car and still sell it at a reasonable price?

The Lionel HO passenger cars were also made of plastic.  Mantua had a line of unpainted HO extruded aluminum car kits:

Rusty

Imo, it wouldn't have even been just paint, but silkscreen. Ink is King

It still might have needed etch too.

"Darn it, the scratch bins are full again"   💸

The globe used to be centerpiece, but I found that rare Marx moon crater on CL for $10 delivered.  So light it collapses under it's own weight and brittle to boot. Not many survived. Even if they didn't get played with at all something always bumps the box and cracks them.  My original lasted about 5 minutes. The rest for many years.  I still have a lone figure from back then. An army flame thrower cast in white vs green.   He pulls sandblasting duty today.(look to the right, he barely made the shot)... The dockside was first engine to pull the Martian train.. ok, but was lacking realism in some way  

Joe Hohmann posted:

Being a kid in postwar times, I think most boys preferred "impressive" engines pulling freight cars.

I couldn't say -- where I lived (in central PA), I was the only kid I ever knew who actually had a Lionel train set.  It was only up at Christmas time, to be sure, but no one else I ever heard of ran trains at all.

I was the "oddball", in that I liked passenger cars best (easier to imagine you were riding in one).

Yes!  I wanted to run passenger trains behind my 2026!  When it pulled into the passenger station, all it could offer them was a NYC gondola.  The NTSB would have been outraged.

But a Lionel streamlined passenger car cost $10. each back then (about $100. in today's money).

I never knew what the 027 streamlined cars cost.  I just knew that they were too expensive for my family to afford.  I was exceedingly lucky just to have the 2026 and four freight cars.

So I was stuck with my Hudson pulling freight. Guess what I have now? 

I never had a Hudson till I bought my 783, five or six years ago.  But my old 2026 spends most of the year on our coffee table, in front of a prominently-displayed string of Lionel Lines silver passenger cars.  I'll be getting it ready for its annual Christmas run, soon, and it'll look the way I always envisioned it would, all those years ago.