postwar 671 need bearings update 3-17-2016

The bearing balls are readily available. The part number is 671M-21. Any Lionel parts dealer should have them.
You can also purchase the appropriate sized bearing balls on EBay. That is what I did.  If you wish, I will look up the size so you can purchase some.

Here is the diagram for your motor. All the part numbers are there.
I don't think it specifies a count. I put in as many as will fit with the balls flat against the bottom of the bearing.

St Paul

give Jeff Kane a call

www.ttender.com         he will have your parts and a schematic of the motor break down

http://www.ttender.com/partslist.html

try this, scroll down to 671M-21 and you will see the part available.

he can walk you through the other parts you need.

those balls are a pain, , 

I sent an e-mail to Jeff @ tender parts.

I know this engine uses the single ball bearing but I hoped to be able to use a bearing assembly that has all the bearings locked into a bearing assemble so I can stop chasing those small bearings all over the floor.

thanks for the replies, I have a k-line lionel service manual reprint and it shows the diagram of the 671 turbine I also came across a lionel 736 steamer and it has the one piece bearing assembly its called a thrust bearing am thinking this just might be what I'm looking for to replace all the individual ball bearings.

jeff will tell you if it can  work, I can't remember, if it  will fit inside bushing,

They're not that bad to put in. Take them out of the little zip lock they come in with a magnet. No rolling away and they're easy to grab then. Put some grease in the area where they are to be installed, it will hold them in place as you go for another. Keep going around the ring till you can't fit any more. 

If you are considering using the replacement thrust bearing the part #681-121 is what you need.  When you get in contact with Jeff Kane, he can tell you if it can be used, and the right thickness thrust washers you will need.  I have used the same bearing in three of my five S-2 turbines with no problems, because I didn't want to mess with so many individual ball bearings.

Please let us know what Jeff says on whether the 681-121 bearing race can be substituted for the individual 671M-21 ball bearings.

The parts diagram for the 622 switcher shows 9 ball bearings.  I would imagine the 671 would use the same minimum, if you go that route.

C W BURFLE,  I received an e-mail from jeff and yes the thrust bearing assembly can be used in place of the separate ball bearings.

But you also have to change out the brass? bearings the motor shaft rides on too and a different set of spacers thickness wise.

I also found out why my 2343 F-3's came to an abrupt halt ohhhhhhh so many years ago, seems 2 teeth got bent on the worm gear within the rear truck so this ought to be a new adventure for me!

I have replaced the worm gears on the spiral shaft but have never replaced the work gear inside the truck on the axle.

I have the wheel puller not sure if its long enough to use to press the axle out so I can remove the bad one.

this will make repairing the 671 seem like a breeze!

But you also have to change out the brass? bearings the motor shaft rides on too and a different set of spacers thickness wise.

The originals were Oilite bearings. Some of the replacements being offered these days are just brass.

In other words, the bearing races are not drop in replacements.

Jeff probably gave you the part numbers of everything you would need to do the conversion.
Are you going to do it?
Thank you for sharing  Jeff's reply.

C.W. Burfle,

yes I am going to do the conversion as well as fix a few other issues this 671 has. also getting parts to fix a 2343 with some issues too. glad I talked to Jeff on phone as the magna traction power trucks use a different worm gear not shown in the repair manuals for the 2343..

well I received the new bearings and bushings to convert this 671 turbine steam engine to bearings with a race instead of the single bearings as built.

unfortunately have run into issue with the armature in order to gain room at worm gear end of armature I have to recess the rear bearing at armature end so I have enough room for both spacers and bearing and the c-clip to lock armature shaft in place.

which created a new issue as the armature winding is so close to the motor housing that when I screw motor down it creates a dead short!  I confirmed this by moving rear bearing out enough so both spacers and c-clip at the armature worm gear end with no bearing at all then screwed motor to frame and no more short!

so am asking those on forum who are lionel repairman when lionel went from single bearing application to the new encased bearings with a race did they also move the c-clip notched area farther down on shaft to compensate for the newer style bearing setup?

also the motor will not run I made a diagram of wiring and labeled them prior to de-soldering,  I seen that 1 brush is only 1/8" long  so is the brush to short to allow the motor to run? I have serviced the e-unit drum clean all tabs are in good shape fingers are all okay it cycles pretty good except it will stay energized now and then when direction button is pushed and I have to tap it with handle of screw driver to get it to release I cleaned it and it still will hang after 3-6 cycles.

I checked for power at motor connections and motor has power to both left and right brush tabs and the center tab I believe called the field connection? not sure how to check it to see if the winding is okay and haven't checked the separate armature for continuity.

I also have a bad drive wheel and I think is why the drive wheel worm gear and the worm gear on motor when engaged lock up I get things lined up and at times was able to get all to move until that drive wheel slipped and so assume it gets the turbines drive wheels out of sync side to side.

I am thinking if I get motor running  then only thing I can do is to shorten the motor casing at worm gear end to allow both spacers and bearing with c-clip to be added without moving the armature brass bushing. does that sound like a okay thing to do or?

any help on this would be appreciated.

If you want to test the motor by itself, minus the E unit, you have the three solder connections on the brush plate.  Strap the center tab and the right side tab together.  Hook transformer to the ground solder lug on left side of motor, and the the other transformer lead to the left brush plate tab.  This will get the motor to run in one direction.  Next strap the center and left tabs together and move the transformer lead to the right tab and the same ground tab. That reverses the motor direction.  That will test the functions (fwd & rev) of the motor.

If the bottom portion of the armature windings are striking the bottom of the motor housing:

Can you move the new inner bearing (armature head side) out enough to provide clearance, and move the new outer bearing (worm side) in enough to expose the groove for the e-ring? Or does the groove wind up inside the motor casing, making it impossible to install the e-ring?

Regarding the position of the groove for the e-ring:
I checked. The armature for the older motors with individual bearing is a #671M-5. The armature for the newer motors with the bearing race is a 681-114.
Something must have changed on those armatures. Maybe another question for Jeff?

C W BURFLE   thanks for the reply I did that test and the motor is good!  but it refuses to work when wires attached from e-unit the e-unit has the original fingers and old cloth wiring.

now far as I know 1 wire goes to left motor lug and another to the right motor lug from the 3 finger e-unit and the field wire from wound wire on motor and another wire from 2 finger e-unit attaches to the middle terminal is that correct?

I used volt meter and both motor brushes are getting power from test track so what am I missing?

St Paul

there is a barrel inside the e-unit, that needs to be clean or you will lose electrical contact.

Ive had barrels that were distroyed and had to replace them. most times Ive been able to

remove the barrel and clean the contact surfaces, replace it and all is well.

Popi posted:

St Paul

there is a barrel inside the e-unit, that needs to be clean or you will lose electrical contact.

Ive had barrels that were distroyed and had to replace them. most times Ive been able to

remove the barrel and clean the contact surfaces, replace it and all is well.

I did that already as it had sat for a good 14 yrs of none use and the barrel was heavily tarnished .

now far as I know 1 wire goes to left motor lug and another to the right motor lug from the 3 finger e-unit and the field wire from wound wire on motor and another wire from 2 finger e-unit attaches to the middle terminal is that correct?

I don't think so

There is a two finger contact and a four finger contact.

The wire from the two finger contact goes to one of the brush terminals (those two fingers are tied together).
The wire from the center pair of contacts on the four finger contact plate goes to the other brush. (those two fingers are also tied together).
The end contact on one side of the four finger contact plate goes to the e-unit power terminal.
The end contact on the opposite side of the four finger contact plate goes to the field wire, which should be connected to the center terminal of the brush plate.

There is a drawing on this service manual page. Just ignore "Jack 1" and "jack 2"

This drawing may be a little clearer.

Between the 671 and 681 armature shafts, the only difference is the snap groove location. For the 671 armature shaft blank, 671M-11, the lower edge of the snap ring groove is 0.493" from the end of the shaft. On the 681 armature shaft blank, 681-118, the lower edge of the snap ring groove is 0.534" from the end fo the shaft. 

To run the motor without the e-unit, connect the armature and field in series and apply voltage to each end of the series string.  On this motor that would require applying power to one bruch, connecting the other brush to the insulated end of the field, and apply the other voltage connection to the motor frame as the other end of the field is grounded to the motor frame.

C W BURFLE   thanks for the link it helped clear things up and I did have it wired correctly, I misspoke on the 3 finger contact I did mean a 4 finger contact.

as an update to all this I totally rebuilt the e-unit I replaced both sets of finger contacts and even though the old barrel was clean and looked good I replaced it as well.

I put all back together and success the motor worked wired up and bolted in place to the frame and e-unit.

for the faint of heart please have a beverage of choice as this will unnerve most especially the post war collectors here I needed to get the armature worm gear end to allow the new spacers and bearing race assembly as well as the c-clip that holds the armature together as a unit.

so I disassembled the motor and clamped the motor frame snugly in my work bench vise and using a metal file slowly removed about a 1/16" of metal and the brass bushing until both spacers and bearing assembly and the c-clip slipped into its slot easily. I reassembled the motor soldered the wires back on shimmed the motor with 2 of the old bearing spacers and its running again sort of.

the left rear drive wheel the one that is on the powered axle will spin about 1/8" to 1/4"on its axle at times and is binding both sets of drivers up so will need to replace the drive wheel, or at least I hope it is the wheel and not the axle as I already did battle on a F-3 replacing a bad truck worm gear in it tuesday.

so for those that care to use the newer bearings held inside a race assembly here is your how to and if you care to do this modification and get stuck feel free to ask me its not hard just a learning curve is all.

for the faint of heart please have a beverage of choice as this will unnerve most especially the post war collectors here I needed to get the armature worm gear end to allow the new spacers and bearing race assembly as well as the c-clip that holds the armature together as a unit.

Hey, it's your train to do with as you please.

And you have answered the question: "Can 681-121 bearing races be used to replace individual 671M-21 ball bearings?"

In my humble opinion, the answer is: "Only if you are willing to replace the motor bearings, and either replace the armature or modify the motor casing."

I am glad things worked out for you, but it's not a conversion that I am likely to do.

I can relate but had to many times of bearings getting stuck in gear box not an easy thing to get them out.

I am glad too as I have a lot of command engines but came back to see how conventional items ran and frankly I enjoyed seeing them running again. these few repairs will make it easier later on when they need new homes and are in running order.

thanks for all your help C W Burfle

okay as stated in a post above I did convert this 671 turbine engine to newer style bearings.

but in doing so I did have to modify the worm gear end of motor housing so a conversion is possible but it will not be same as the original as built.

now the original bushing at armature end has a recess that allowed the separate small bearings to fit within it and upon inspection if someone has a lathe or knows someone that does I believe that recess could be enlarged enough to allow the newer style bearing to fit inside with 1 spacer needed at that end so that when adding the spacers and newer style bearing on armature end it would allow the c-clip to slip into its slot as designed originally.

now for those that own the 671 turbine and a 8404 steam engine and or lionel repair station folks I have a question the parts for this conversion came from a lionel 8404 steam engine so did lionel change these motors in length or did they change where they made the slot in worm gear end for the c-clip to lock assembly together from what they did when making the 671 turbine?

I'm hoping that those having both these engines or lionel reparman having these 2 different armatures for above engines will share this information so next person that wants to convert a 671 to newer style bearing setup will know exactly what is required

I do not regret modifying this engine I am a toy train runner not a collector and now I do not have to chase small bearings on floor ever again from this engine.

thanks for any information on this