Is it possible there's a power dead spot in them areas? Roller spacing is different on different engines.
Doug
I've been giving that a thought. The 2 worst spots are next to each other, 2 tracks side by side slightly different elevations, separate loops. I really think its a ground plain issue.
You might consider the Dale M buffer amp that gunrunnerjohn is offering. Do you have a large layout. Pictures?
I had hopes it would be my answer & I did consider, tried to place the order, sent my deposit & I was too late. John sent a refund. I have mentioned to him, more than once, that I want to be on the list for the kit. He hasn't confirmed my order yet.
He has undertaken an awesome project. Just be persistent and patient
I just watched it & read most of the ground plane posts on the forum. I eliminated the power strip for now & I'm going to try the pin 5 suggestion as a starting point. I'll try connecting all my ground plane wires to pin 5. I think I'm going to remove all my engines & rolling stock & try running one of my problematic engines across the layout & try to identify all my problem areas.
I've been running the layout so long, avoiding the problem engines and areas that are a problem, it's probably time to find a solution. I was looking for a quick fix but I guess there isn't.
A simple thing to try if you think the outlet might not be grounded properly is to remove the screw holding the face plate on and add a wire with a small ring terminal replace the screw and run the wire to a copper water line that's close by.
Doug
Well I tried a number of things. Focusing on one section only. Cleaned the track more thoroughly last night. The troublesome engine ran perfectly, along with 2 other trains for over an hour.
Tried again this afternoon, stopped every time, same spot, actually it's over an atlas switch. Thought maybe the computer & TV/cable, that are in the rooms above, might have an impact. They weren't on last night. Connected a wire to Pin 5, ran a wire above, then along side the troublesome section, no improvement, gave up.
Thought the overhead shop florescent light affected the signal (had it on last night no issue). Tried connecting another wire to the earth ground outlet and ran a wire above then alongside the track, no improvement. Removed an MTH engine form the track on a siding, a considerable distance away, signal improved, the engine ran fine on that loop.
I read somewhere here, that some engines will affect other engines I've long suspected that was an issue in some cases. I'm in the process of removing every engine on sidings not in use. My plan is to remove every engine, every piece of rolling stock & try to see how my Polar Express will run on every loop & siding.
WHAT A PAIN! To many variables. Makes me want to tear it all up and start from scratch! One section, one loop at a time.
I started this layout, maybe 20 years ago, with early DCS. Couldn't wait to get trains running. DCS had some bugs, tried all the suggestions & got things running well enough to enjoy. Once I introduced TMCC, more problems started to pop up.
I really think every time I solved one problem, I introduced a new one.
If I had the time to start fresh, I wouldn't waste my time trying to de-bug this layout.
When that time comes, I will take my time & test as I go along.
Your problem is it's losing power thru that atlas switch,you can run a hundred ground plane wires and it will not cure it. I don't use atlas so I don't know if there's a way to fix them.
Doug
trnluvr posted:Your problem is it's losing power thru that atlas switch,you can run a hundred ground plane wires and it will not cure it. I don't use atlas so I don't know if there's a way to fix them.
Doug
Fix involves wiring with the Atlas 6924 relay board, which logically powers short dead rail sections of switches. There is also dead rail wiring associated with Ross Switches/using DZ 1000 switch motors, and add on 1008 latching relays.
There are at least two pick-up rollers on an engine/locomotive. Unfortunately, with close positioning of switches, and crosses, you can have two holes/non powered sections, that match with an engine/locomotive pick-up rollers.
Atlas 6924 relay board
(2) DZ 1008 relays, mounted under the layout. Black boxes marked (4) and (5) 
Well, the switch could certainly be the culprit, in this one location. No switches in the other problem areas, tracks next to each other.
I did a quick check on the relay board, $25.00! No simpler solution. Ross switches also have the same issue?
What does the engine do in them areas ?
Doug
Stops dead mostly, sometimes will start slowly or lurch forward.
Does the headlight go completely out or does it flicker?
Doug
No flickering, completely dead.
That's a power problem too. Are you using the rail joiners for your power drops and how far apart are they? Is there one close to that area? That's the one thing I didn't like about atlas track is the rail joiners,I nothing but problems with it in HO,I ended up soldering all the track back then.
Doug
I like to use multiple power strips for that cascade effect.
Lotta protection here. Please don't do this.
Chris Sheldon
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FIREONE seems an appropriate user name for that picture! 
trnluvr posted:A simple thing to try if you think the outlet might not be grounded properly is to remove the screw holding the face plate on and add a wire with a small ring terminal replace the screw and run the wire to a copper water line that's close by.
Doug
As a licensed electrician with over 30 years experience I have one thing to say....
NEVER DO THIS! (sorry trnluvr). Running grounds to any place but the bus bar in your main panel is not only a violation of the national electrical code but could potentially lead to a fire under the right circumstances. I've seen stray voltage as high as 10V with several amps of current on small accessory grounds such as this.
Grounding is much more complex then many people realize, especially with all of the electronics in our homes today. Entire books have been written on the subject (here).
Not only can you introduce stray voltage into your home's electrical system, these small grounds can cause electrolysis in the copper pipe causing it to rot out and leak.
We all love our trains but we all need to be safe with how we use the electricity that runs them.
Bob
RSJB18 posted:Grounding is much more complex then many people realize, especially with all of the electronics in our homes today. Entire books have been written on the subject (here).
They're pretty proud of that book too! 
$73.95
So, remove the ground wires? Craps, something else to worry about!
I have an older version that I've read several times. Took many classes over the years too.
RSJB18 posted:trnluvr posted:A simple thing to try if you think the outlet might not be grounded properly is to remove the screw holding the face plate on and add a wire with a small ring terminal replace the screw and run the wire to a copper water line that's close by.
Doug
As a licensed electrician with over 30 years experience I have one thing to say....
NEVER DO THIS! (sorry trnluvr). Running grounds to any place but the bus bar in your main panel is not only a violation of the national electrical code but could potentially lead to a fire under the right circumstances. I've seen stray voltage as high as 10V with several amps of current on small accessory grounds such as this.
Grounding is much more complex then many people realize, especially with all of the electronics in our homes today. Entire books have been written on the subject (here).Not only can you introduce stray voltage into your home's electrical system, these small grounds can cause electrolysis in the copper pipe causing it to rot out and leak.
We all love our trains but we all need to be safe with how we use the electricity that runs them.
Bob
Bob, Thank you for setting me straight on this,I was passing it on from posts I have read on here before. Know that I know this I'll never mention it again!
Doug
I’ve seen houses with copper plumbing where the plumbing is connected back to the electric entry panel ground. I think that was a safety in case a live wire was accidentally touched to the copper pipe system. That’s different than what was stated here, but I’m wondering if that’s recommended any longer. I’m thinking that could be an unrecommended additional ground rod in the soil as one caveat.
Anyway, if that is the case and it’s been allowed, ground wires to lay on the layout could just get their ground system signal from a nearby copper pipe.
What does the ground book say about that these days?
I dont think anybody said pull anything yet... except maybe as a process of elimination test on the turnouts.
There are various grades of the LED testers as well. Some can be "fooled" by hacked grounds. The one shown is a good one.
Do you have an ohm meter or similar voltage/continuity meter? You may be able to check for continuity between various wall outlet earth grounds to insure they are wired to the same ground. Plus with those turnouts/motors you should be poking rails for voltage too... but...
I think the video addresses the issue best. But if you've allready mirrored thier solutuons EXCACTY, then the #5 acting as a transmitter antenna negates worrying much about a wall circuit that you have tested in the past. And as noted you might run an insulated wire from the wall plug vs pin 5 and drape it around for testing.
I'm also wondering about your wall construction. Because chicken wire and or gypsum (I think that was it) in plaster could be shielding the in-the-wall signal starting at the wall socket as well. A family member just spent buttload on 6 in-home cell phone relays and a new tv/radio antenna because radio can't pass through the walls and absorbs rather than reflects.
Again, the #5 or the ground equipt with an extension antenna is a cheap diagnostic tool/solution(hopefully).
Or another way to test fast would simply be plug a long grounded extension cord into the same outlet as the command unit and drape that around the room.
Atlas O 3-Rail Nickel Silver track
I still say his problem is power related and not signal issues.
Doug
cjack posted:I’ve seen houses with copper plumbing where the plumbing is connected back to the electric entry panel ground. I think that was a safety in case a live wire was accidentally touched to the copper pipe system. That’s different than what was stated here, but I’m wondering if that’s recommended any longer. I’m thinking that could be an unrecommended additional ground rod in the soil as one caveat.
Anyway, if that is the case and it’s been allowed, ground wires to lay on the layout could just get their ground system signal from a nearby copper pipe.
What does the ground book say about that these days?
I guess our condo didn't get the word that that was prohibited! The one wire is going around the meter and valves, and in the corner shot, the ground wire from the water feed is going up is the power panel ground.
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I'm sure there is more than one issue and a combination of things. Some engines run fine everywhere, while others don't, but do run fine on certain sections. Right now I'm trying to apply a band aid, not do major surgery. Some of the suggestions have helped so far. I have no doubt the Atlas turnout is one issue, at least for 2 of my Lionel engines. Like I did with the power strip, I'll take it out of the equation, at least temporarily & slip in a straight section.
Process of elimination & I'll give the pin 5 another chance. I may disconnect my ground wires once I've cleared every engine and car off the layout, and run some engines around, one at a time. This may be extreme but I need to remove every variable. It may be awhile though since I'm going away for 2 weeks.
I made up my mind 3 years ago to build a new layout, a walk-in, mostly for better accessibility. Eye level on a bar stool & not always walking around, with no duck unders. All the suggestions here will be most helpful at that time.
One thing I don't believe was mentioned, could wi-fi be part of the problem?
Interesting about the ground to the copper pipe. That was common around here for many years. As in GRJ's pic above, the house we moved from about 5 years ago had the exact same grounding setup (only copper wire) from the electrical panel to the copper water pipe. It also had a ground rod outside driven in the ground below the electric meter that was also tied into the breaker panel. We lived in the old house for about 35 years and it was 22-23 years old when we moved in.
I've never lived where it wasn't that way; pipes to box . There are four total rods around the outside hers and one in the foundation under the water meter.
I assumed it was straight track, and just fully caught the turnout issue. No mention of engine type either, but adding a roller to a tender or swapping for non-stock rollers may be needed.
Ability to run in conventional could be more revealing of a bad roller spacing if you have a throttle, or ability for convetional via command remote, or an old supply with a throttle to swap in.
I don’t think it is prohibited to refer the metal plumbing back to the meter ground. I was wondering though. It is against code to have more than one ground rod unless they are bonded together by a substantial copper around the house. Maybe that’s what a water pipe system is in effect when the water source pipe behaves like a ground rod where it comes into the house.
This comes up all the time with ham radio, especially when we drive additional ground rods at antenna towers. We’re advised to run at least a 1/4 inch tubing from them to the meter ground. It’s about lightening protection although I don’t think anyone actually knows how lightening is going to decide to go. However, the thinking is that most of the damage comes from huge ground currents.
My problematic engines are a TMCC N&W J (4-8-4), & my NEW Scale Polar Express Berkshire (2-8-4). I had a TMCC Y6B that had the same issues, same spots, sold it. I have 2 Legacy Y6B's, as well as 2 Legacy EM1's & a Legacy Sharknose diesel, no issues anywhere.
I'm essentially a loop runner. Just love watching the trains circulate. I'll do switching at some sidings & in a small yard, for fun and a change of pace. My Grandson is 3 1/2 and loves running the trains. He starts them up, increases the speed, blows the whistle & bell, etc. We love watching them together but when the train stops, of course he asks, why? Kinda takes some of the fun out of it. If he sticks with the hobby, I hope he'll be the one ironing out the kinks.
gunrunnerjohn posted:cjack posted:I’ve seen houses with copper plumbing where the plumbing is connected back to the electric entry panel ground. I think that was a safety in case a live wire was accidentally touched to the copper pipe system. That’s different than what was stated here, but I’m wondering if that’s recommended any longer. I’m thinking that could be an unrecommended additional ground rod in the soil as one caveat.
Anyway, if that is the case and it’s been allowed, ground wires to lay on the layout could just get their ground system signal from a nearby copper pipe.
What does the ground book say about that these days?
I guess our condo didn't get the word that that was prohibited! The one wire is going around the meter and valves, and in the corner shot, the ground wire from the water feed is going up is the power panel ground.
To paraphrase the National Electrical Code-
1. A metallic water system that has at least 10 feet of buried metallic pipe MAY be used as one of the required grounding electrodes.
2. If the metallic water system is used as a grounding electrode, the grounding electrode conductor MUST be attached within 5 feet of the pipe's entry into the premises.
3. If the premises contain a metallic water piping system, it MUST be grounded, even if it not used AS the grounding electrode.
4. In the situation where a 3 prong receptacle is used to replace a 2 prong receptacle, the ground pin MAY NOT be connected to the metallic piping system UNLESS the connection is made within 5 feet of the system's entry to the building, per 2 above.
There are a bunch of exceptions and clarifications, but the above 4 points are the jist of it. Not all jurisdictions follow the NEC, so your inspector may be more or less stringent..
All this has changed a bunch over the years, mainly due to situations where sections of rusted or damaged water pipe were replaced with plastic, which broke the ground path.
FWIW, the stuff about ground currents causing corrosion is true, I have personally encountered it, although it took 50 years to show up.
I only know for some reason you shouldn't rely on pipe as the main earth ground for electrical. The electrics earth should be as close the the box as possible.. I dont have copper pipe, it is steel. Ive seen cases for using special pipe joints and sacrificial anoid materials but I was reading blueprints not designing. There is one big ground at the meter middle front of basement. an equal from pipe to box about 40ft away s.w. back corner laundry/electrical. 50ft south another pipe lead to rod. Plus a rod for phone and one for antennas. There is one for gas pipe too I think, n.e. corner(?)
Didn't mean to start a whole thing about grounding. What @PLCProf stated above is all true. The ground clamps that several of you have posted pix of are a requirement in the code. This is your main ground from the panel to earth.
One thing to add- many areas of the country use plastic pipe for water mains. The copper/metal piping in the house still gets bonded (different from grounded) to the electric service but the ground is accomplished with two 8' copper rods driven into the ground outside the house, usually below the meter.
To take it one step further, your home's electric service originates at a step down transformer provided by the local utility. Typically 240V/120V secondary from a higher voltage primary. These transformers are grounded to earth by driven rod as well.
All of these grounds "connect" via the earth.
Bob
So in GRJ’s top photo is that the start of this electrolysis business, or something else? Should we be looking around for this?
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TedW posted:So in GRJ’s top photo is that the start of this electrolysis business, or something else? Should we be looking around for this?
It could be. The clamp is aluminum and the pipe is copper. Dis-similar metals can cause electrolysis to begin as well.
GRJ- I would recommend having this clamp changed to a copper/ copper- coated clamp. The water pipe should be cleaned with steel wool or emory cloth to insure a good connection from the clamp to the pipe.
The jumper around the water meter is there so that if the meter ever has to be removed for some reason, the home's piping is still grounded.
Since the ground wire proper is aluminum, and the clamps are labeled AL/CU, I'm going to leave them alone. However, I did take them off, clean the pipe and clamp, and then insure they were as tight as possible. There was no evidence of dissimilar metal corrosion on either joint, so I'm not too worried. By the time it manages to corrode, it should be someone else's problem!
FWIW, the wire is continuous from the breaker box through the one clamp and on to the second one. That gives me two points of contact to the pipe unless someone steals the meter. 
I really don't think I have a problem with the grounding as it also was inspected in 2016 and this wasn't squawked in the report.
Sounds good John. As long as the clamps are properly rated then it should be fine. The wire is properly done also.
By the time it manages to corrode, it should be someone else's problem!
Good answer! LOL! 
Any update on the new layout build?
