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Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
Originally Posted by ROGERW:

... If Lionel's products wasn't selling, Lionel would cancel the products. Remember, you do have a choice. Complaining on the forum isn't going to change what Lionel charges for their products.

 

...

 

Uh... right... 

 

Just like complaining here and to Lionel reps at York when whistle-steam was eliminated from steamers didn't get the feature re-introduced the following year.  Give us a break, please.  Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.  Everybody needs a reality check from time to time... Including the boys who play with spreadsheets behind computer screens all day.   

 

David

 

There is a bunch of parallel paths in this that remind me of the theory of relativity based on discretionary capability when it comes to ye ole pocketbook. There appears to be a correspondence there. The ones who have spare cash have no issue with this or so it seems. I am not saying or inferring a sort of absence of empathy there or that one economic advantage is problematic compared to others. This is not a criticism on a personal level but recognizing a fact of life when it comes to bias versus cost.

What sells is what is affordable first and foremost and this suggests to me that the ye ole credit cards are being used and \ or there is cash on hand that gives the impression to them that this is not a problematic situation for those who lack this capability.I could be all wet but there does seem to be some amount of correspondence there. To everything there is a ceiling of diminishing returns as prices increase. How long this can be avoided by the Big 3 only time will tell.

Last edited by electroliner
Originally Posted by ROGERW:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
Originally Posted by ROGERW:

... If Lionel's products wasn't selling, Lionel would cancel the products. Remember, you do have a choice. Complaining on the forum isn't going to change what Lionel charges for their products.

 

...

 

Uh... right... 

 

Just like complaining here and to Lionel reps at York when whistle-steam was eliminated from steamers didn't get the feature re-introduced the following year.  Give us a break, please.  Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.  Everybody needs a reality check from time to time... Including the boys who play with spreadsheets behind computer screens all day.   

 

David

 

David, This is my point exactly( Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.) Why complain when you're selling out the big bucks?? You still have a choice! Don't buy the product if it's too high to afford!!! Wait until you can buy the product used or at a discount!! 

Has NOTHING to do with being able to afford it.....it's about not getting the value for your money.  Get a clue....

I have to agree that the increased prices will greatly reduce my purchases.As far as them being over priced?I don't think so.Just because an item costs more than you want to spend does NOT mean it is over priced.The cost of doing business is going through the ceiling people.I can tell you that first hand.I know-I know-"its made by slaves in China".They still have full time employees here in the US that need a raise each year and HEALTH care insurance as hopefully we all know costs a fortune AND is skyrocketing out of control.And etc.etc.etc.Hey…some can afford to stay in the game…others will have to go to the secondary market.Nick

Originally Posted by MLAT:
Originally Posted by ROGERW:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
Originally Posted by ROGERW:

... If Lionel's products wasn't selling, Lionel would cancel the products. Remember, you do have a choice. Complaining on the forum isn't going to change what Lionel charges for their products.

 

...

 

Uh... right... 

 

Just like complaining here and to Lionel reps at York when whistle-steam was eliminated from steamers didn't get the feature re-introduced the following year.  Give us a break, please.  Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.  Everybody needs a reality check from time to time... Including the boys who play with spreadsheets behind computer screens all day.   

 

David

 

David, This is my point exactly( Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.) Why complain when you're selling out the big bucks?? You still have a choice! Don't buy the product if it's too high to afford!!! Wait until you can buy the product used or at a discount!! 

Has NOTHING to do with being able to afford it.....it's about not getting the value for your money.  Get a clue....

One clue may be affordability since it happens to be the topic of this thread. Quality in relation to price point is an aside like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole when the topic is pricing, not quality.

Originally Posted by MLAT:
Originally Posted by ROGERW:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
Originally Posted by ROGERW:

... If Lionel's products wasn't selling, Lionel would cancel the products. Remember, you do have a choice. Complaining on the forum isn't going to change what Lionel charges for their products.

 

...

 

Uh... right... 

 

Just like complaining here and to Lionel reps at York when whistle-steam was eliminated from steamers didn't get the feature re-introduced the following year.  Give us a break, please.  Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.  Everybody needs a reality check from time to time... Including the boys who play with spreadsheets behind computer screens all day.   

 

David

 

David, This is my point exactly( Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.) Why complain when you're selling out the big bucks?? You still have a choice! Don't buy the product if it's too high to afford!!! Wait until you can buy the product used or at a discount!! 

Has NOTHING to do with being able to afford it.....it's about not getting the value for your money.  Get a clue....

MLAT, Has NOTHING to do with being able to afford it.....it's about not getting the value for your money.  Get a clue....

 

Then that means when Lionel release any more product, you take your business elsewhere!! Why keep buying something when the quality isn't there??? That like doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result!!!!

Originally Posted by ROGERW:

Lionel laughs all the way to the bank!! They already know that a certain segment of the O gauge community is going to complain about the prices THEN go and purchase that same product that they were complaining about!!!

I've been around long enough to know what you read on this board could be very different in reality...

I suspect in a crowd this large you'll find loyalists, dealer shills & product boosters that boast big excitement and bigger orders but rarely step up to the plate.

Joe

Originally Posted by ROGERW:

..

MLAT, Has NOTHING to do with being able to afford it.....it's about not getting the value for your money.  Get a clue....

 

Then that means when Lionel release any more product, you take your business elsewhere!! Why keep buying something when the quality isn't there??? That like doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result!!!!

Easier said then done... Not possible when you're captured with no place to run. 

And Lionel knows this...

Joe

Originally Posted by JC642:
Originally Posted by ROGERW:

Lionel laughs all the way to the bank!! They already know that a certain segment of the O gauge community is going to complain about the prices THEN go and purchase that same product that they were complaining about!!!

I've been around long enough to know what you read on this board could be very different in reality...

I suspect in a crowd this large you'll find loyalists, dealer shills & product boosters that boast big excitement and bigger orders but rarely step up to the plate.

Joe

It strikes me as comical that when died in the wool boosterism meets a discouraging word..it says "Wait a minute..Oh No you don't!" Kinda goofy.

And, best of all..it's entertaining. Reading this stuff beats doing the dishes.

Last edited by electroliner
Originally Posted by rockstars1989:

... As far as them being over priced?I don't think so.Just because an item costs more than you want to spend does NOT mean it is over priced. ...

The most talked about example has been the ES44's.  Others have also mentioned the price hike for the Heavy Mike's too.

 

In the case of the ES44's, when we can buy the current offerings for $399 and the new ones will be $520, that's over-priced.  The price/performance (i.e., call it VALUE) just dropped dramatically.

 

Lionel is welcome to ask the new price.  Whether consumers order any remains to be seen.  For those who do, more power to them.  If enough folks don't order them, the item will likely be cancelled.  We've seen increasing numbers of catalog'd products being cancelled in the past year or two... and that's true of Lionel, MTH and Atlas-O.  The catalogs are becoming more of a "here's what we can offer you" kind of book -- not "here's what we're gonna manufacture".

 

Who introduced quality into this discussion?    The group of posts early on page 2 has been confusing to say the least. 

 

Carry on...

 

David

 

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer
Originally Posted by JC642:
...

Easier said then done... Not possible when you're captured with no place to run. 

And Lionel knows this...

...

Actually, it's really not that difficult at all.    I'm as big a toy train enthusiast as you'll find.  And I've found it's quite easy to purchase selectively rather than get caught up in the hype of the latest stuff catalog'd.

 

I'm not saying this in any kind of boastful way... but this discussion has absolutely NOTHING to do with affordability, and EVERYTHING to do with smart shopping.  Given the money I would have spent on some products in Lionel's 2015 Signature Edition had they been priced more reasonably... I simply channeled those $$ to purchases where I felt the price/performance (or VALUE) was much better... and UPS just delivered 4 boxes from Sidetrack Hobbies today as a result.  Great sale prices on items I've been watching -- in one case for over two years... another on an item at a super price that was just recently released within the past month.

 

I'm telling you folks... it's not that hard to walk away from this stuff when prices for newly catalog'd products get out of control.  Now walking away from toy trains completely is whole different story.    Let's not even go there, 'cause that ain't happening anytime soon for most of us.     Fortunately, the market for toy train products that are  currently here in the States has never been better IMHO -- often at very good price-points -- in both the secondary market as well as from authorized dealers.  There is no reason to be going goo-goo, ga-ga over stuff and paying premium dollars with poor price/performance just because this stuff shows up on pages in the latest catalog.   Vote with your wallets, people.  The message will be received loud and clear.

 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer

To state the obvious, if Lionel thought they could make greater total profits by increasing the volume sold at a lower price point, they would have done that. Their costs or projected costs have obviously increased substantially on some items as the main explanation for these changes.  All other conspiracy, greed theories, etc. should be viewed with skepticism.  Gouging their customers is never a good business principle, and from what we know of the Lionel leadership group, they are reasonably good and sound businessmen.  Don't let your personal outraged, disappointed feelings dictate your analysis.

Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
Originally Posted by JC642:
...

Easier said then done... Not possible when you're captured with no place to run. 

And Lionel knows this...

...

Actually, it's really not that difficult at all.    I'm as big a toy train enthusiast as you'll find.  And I've found it's quite easy to purchase selectively rather than get caught up in the hype of the latest stuff catalog'd.

 

I'm not saying this in any kind of boastful way... but this discussion has absolutely NOTHING to do with affordability, and EVERYTHING to do with smart shopping.  Given the money I would have spent on some products in Lionel's 2015 Signature Edition had they been priced more reasonably... I simply channeled those $$ to purchases where I felt the price/performance (or VALUE) was much better... and UPS just delivered 4 boxes from Sidetrack Hobbies today as a result.  Great sale prices on items I've been watching -- in one case for over two years... another on an item at a super price that was just recently released within the past month.

 

I'm telling you folks... it's not that hard to walk away from this stuff when prices for newly catalog'd products get out of control.  Now walking away from toy trains completely is whole different story.    Let's not even go there, 'cause that ain't happening anytime soon for most of us.     Fortunately, the market for toy train products that are  currently here in the States has never been better IMHO -- often at very good price-points -- in both the secondary market as well as from authorized dealers.  There is no reason to be going goo-goo, ga-ga over stuff just because it shows up on pages in the latest catalog. 

 

David

If I practiced smart shopping I would have quit when I was ahead. Do you practice smart shopping as a reaction to the catalog items being too pricey? If so, would you say they were not affordable? If not then you have the means I would assume. you simply buy wisely. This is another example as far as I can tell of the relativity of the subject. How high the price is depends on who is looking. At one end you have..What problem? Theres no problem. Then there's the choice contingent, the smart shopper. Then theres the guy who is hooked on new product who will pay any price. Then the guy who sees the costs rising and says good grief. All of this depends on one's bank roll and so goes opinion...

Last edited by electroliner
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
Originally Posted by JC642:
...

Easier said then done... Not possible when you're captured with no place to run. 

And Lionel knows this...

...

Actually, it's really not that difficult at all.    I'm as big a toy train enthusiast as you'll find.  And I've found it's quite easy to purchase selectively rather than get caught up in the hype of the latest stuff catalog'd.

 

I'm not saying this in any kind of boastful way... but this discussion has absolutely NOTHING to do with affordability, and EVERYTHING to do with smart shopping.  Given the money I would have spent on some products in Lionel's 2015 Signature Edition had they been priced more reasonably... I simply channeled those $$ to purchases where I felt the price/performance (or VALUE) was much better... and UPS just delivered 4 boxes from Sidetrack Hobbies today as a result.  Great sale prices on items I've been watching -- in one case for over two years... another on an item at a super price that was just recently released within the past month.

 

I'm telling you folks... it's not that hard to walk away from this stuff when prices for newly catalog'd products get out of control.  Now walking away from toy trains completely is whole different story.    Let's not even go there, 'cause that ain't happening anytime soon for most of us.     Fortunately, the market for toy train products that are  currently here in the States has never been better IMHO -- often at very good price-points -- in both the secondary market as well as from authorized dealers.  There is no reason to be going goo-goo, ga-ga over stuff and paying premium dollars with poor price/performance just because this stuff shows up on pages in the latest catalog.   Vote with your wallets, people.  The message will be received loud and clear.

 

David

David, That is all I was trying to say! Just because those prices are there doesn't mean that you have to purchase the product. This is a GREAT time to be in the hobby especially with the variety of choices. But if you don't like the price (and this doesn't mean that you can't afford it), then you don't have to buy.....you still have choices!!!

Originally Posted by Landsteiner:

...  Don't let your personal outraged, disappointed feelings dictate your analysis.

Actually, there's nothing "outraged" or "disappointed" about my analysis.  If Lionel is telling us that they honestly need to raise prices to a point where dealers are selling plastic-bodied ES44's at $520-$570, then so be it.  We're all big boys and girls here.  I'm just "suggesting" they probably won't sell too many at that price-point.  They just lost my order for FIVE of them.  And if they don't get sufficient pre-orders, then the item won't even get manufactured.  So then Mr. or Ms. Product Manager goes back to the drawing board to come up with something that WILL sell next year.  That's what they get paid the big bucks to do. 

 

Look... importers/dealers have every right to ask whatever price they want for an item.  And consumers will decide accordingly.  It's a simple system when you cut out all the BS. 

 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer
Originally Posted by Passenger Train Collector:

"That has the same appeal to most as telling a chocoholic to avoid sweets."

 

The manufacturer controls the price they set to their dealers and distributors. They in turn determine the actual retail pricing. We can all talk about this until the cows come home, but it is the market that in the final analysis determines the success of a product which includes it's street cost. Chocolate, though Valentine's Day is tomorrow, has little to do with it (figuratively). 

I'm spending my Valentines Day with Veranda Turbine, whats chocolate got to do with it?

Originally Posted by cbojanower:

Buy or don't buy,  those are your options. Complaining here will not change anything

Or, at least express displeasure to those who can effect changes. The best strategy is to employ the market force of supply and demand. Unfortunately, the primary target group here is (mostly) men with above average incomes and a higher impulse level of spending. Does that include me? .....No.

 

Buying used is also a good tactic.

People have every right to voice their opinion, it all comes down to a matter of what we want and how much we are willing to pay for it. There are people who will pay a lot of money for a tarted up SUV, when in reality it is basically a pickup truck costing half as much underneath. People buy expensive makes of cars because they feel like they are 'value', while I could make some logical arguments they are way overpriced, given what they give you *shrug*. I paid 450 bucks for a Williams Brass engine that was produced 20 years ago +, and I consider it a bargain,which sounds kind of dicey for something that is 20 years old, but I wanted one *shrug*. 

 

I suspect what you see is a combination of higher costs, for raw materials and also as contracts get renegotiated, the factories charging more, and their own internal costs, and also Lionel looking at their market and trying to maximize their profits, by tinkering with supply and prices versus demand. What companies do is try and figure out the 'sweet spot' where they make the most money, which ideally limits how many they have to sell to reach it. A lot of items are of low volume or BTO, and they set their price point on the assumption they will get enough orders to reach their sweet spot. If they don't have enough demand, they cancel it. As others have pointed out, they know there are people who will pay the price, who want the units, and in effect that is what they target with their pricing model. If they know (or think they know) that if they make 100 of a particular item, they can make let's say 50 bucks profit @ price (keep in mind this is based on the wholesale price, Lionel doesn't care about the retail), so they would make 5k profit. If they think 100 people will pay the cost of that at that price point, they would rather make the 100 and sell them, rather than make 500 at 10 bucks profit at a lower price, in large part because even at the lower price, they may not sell 500 and be left with remainder.

 

Part of this might be them looking at the economic news, and figuring (wrongly or rightly I I can't say), that jobs are picking up, wages are slowly starting to pick up, so they may feel free to raise prices more, assuming that people will be more willing to pay them if in fact the economy is getting better. In an economic downturn prices tend to be suppressed, if the economy improves prices often go up.

 

Are the trains worth those prices? I can't say, that all depends what you are looking for, and while I sympathize with those saying basically the same engine that cost 400 dollars last year is now over 500 sounds fishy, that it doesn't seem to be much of a value add, in the end it depends on how much people value the item. People often buy cars at auction that you scratch your head at, the price seeming to be way out of whack, but you find out the guy loves the kind of car, fell in love, and paid what he wanted. 

 

The only way this is gonna change is if Lionel finds that their new pricing causes less demand than they expected, in which case they can certainly cancel production of a BTO run, but they can't do that too often, since a canceled production run still has costs behind it (they have to build prototypes, for example, have people design them, figure out parts, etc), so a canceled BTO is not only no sales, it is also a loss. The other option is to see if they lower the price, if demand goes up enough to make their point, and that is an unknown, too, how many people would buy the engine at 400 instead of 500. I suspect to be honest that more than a few of those complaining about the price increases wouldn't buy them at the old prices, either. 

 

 

Originally Posted by electroliner:
Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
Originally Posted by JC642:
...

Easier said then done... Not possible when you're captured with no place to run. 

And Lionel knows this...

...

Actually, it's really not that difficult at all.    

I'm still wondering why LionChief plus GP-20's on page 88 are priced $110.00 more then near identical GP7's on page 90? 

Joe 

Last edited by JC642

Actually if you guys go talk to your dealers instead on conjecturing on a business you are not in, you would find out why prices have jumped.  Its just simply that Lionel over discounted their items to dealers last year.   I paid 399.00 for last years ES44AC and I was surprised it was that low.  The catalog price was 549.00. So that was 150.00 off catalog price at my dealer.  This year they are 649.00 retail so expecting same discount I'd pay 500.00.  That's actually what I was expecting to pay for last year's Legacy ES44AC, but was surprised it wasn't that high.  I remember thinking it was a low price for this diesel.  I don't know why you think Lionel is the only company in the world raising prices.  Every bill I pay goes up every year.  Its not like they are Apple and sell a Gazillion items and make it up on volume.   They have to make enough substantial profit to be able to produce the items, service the item, ship, insure, pay all those employees you love so much, medical benefits, retirement, design, engineering, etc, etc, etc.  I'm surprised they can do it at all.  Plastic bodes have nothing to do with anything.  And if you think labor in the Orient is still super cheap like it was 10 years ago, you need to starting reading the financial news more. 

If I want it and I can afford it, I will buy it even if it was cheaper last year.

This year I'm getting the BNSF ES44AC even if it is 100.00 more. 

I'm getting the Legacy PRR B6 switcher and the Legacy Empire State Express Set and extra cars.

If I can afford it and it does not compromise my financial well being and its something I really like.  SOLD!

With BTO, there won't be all these trains on the secondary market where everyone seems to think they will be able to buy these trains.  Actually some of them will be a lot higher on the secondary market because they are BTO and it won't be flooded with them and they will be harder to obtain. 

I'm sure while Lionel works out the BTO and optimal pricing spot we will see things go up and down for a few years, but in general everything goes up no matter what industry it is.  Simple as that.  I mean you may not buy a BMW because you think its not worth the price, but BMW sure has had no problem staying in business.

 

Some people on here are living in the past.  The world is expensive. And the most expensive things in the world are men's toys.  HAHA.

 

Originally Posted by Bagelman:
Does anyone else feel that lionel is going to draw less customers with Their overpriced items ?    I was shocked to see these prices

Yes, and so was I as I think many others have been as well. A $25-$50 price increase on the ES44's could probably have been expected, prices do go up, but $150 is way over the top, IMO. This is not the way to sell more product, at least not to me as I'm on a fixed income as I expect many of their buyers are.

Originally Posted by rtr12:
Originally Posted by Bagelman:
Does anyone else feel that lionel is going to draw less customers with Their overpriced items ?    I was shocked to see these prices

Yes, and so was I as I think many others have been as well. A $25-$50 price increase on the ES44's could probably have been expected, prices do go up, but $150 is way over the top, IMO. This is not the way to sell more product, at least not to me as I'm on a fixed income as I expect many of their buyers are.

Ok lets get our facts straight.  Last years Retail price was 549.99, this years its 649.99

That's a 100.00 increase not 150.00.  And regardless that is not what you will actually pay at your dealer. 

Originally Posted by SandJam:

   I paid 399.00 for last years ES44AC and I was surprised it was that low.  The catalog price was 549.00. So that was 150.00 off catalog price at my dealer.  This year they are 649.00 retail so expecting same discount I'd pay 500.00.  

 

Ok lets get our facts straight.  Last years Retail price was 549.99, this years its 649.99

That's a 100.00 increase not 150.00.  And regardless that is not what you will actually pay at your dealer. 

 

 

 

As I pointed out much earlier on this thread, its not as much about the higher MSRP's  as it is the LACK of discount when actually purchasing.

 

The "street prices" are a mere $20-$30 off MSRP thats it, including that ES44AC.

 

So again, its a "street price" increase of HUNDREDS in many cases.

 

 

Last edited by RickO

SandJam makes points that are very plausible, namely Lionel over-discounting certain locomotives and implementing a new pricing strategy to recoup costs. Some models like GP35s that carried a $530 MSRP can be had for $300 or less. I just can't see how dealers can make any money with that big of a discount. It's great for the customer but these guys have to stay in business, too.

 

This probably explains why Lionel doesn't make any non-powered units either. They took a bath on them. Even at 30%-40% off these are not selling.

 

There is also the collectibility aspect of the BTO. This will eliminate the blowout pricing that many of us have been accustomed to seeing lately. I think Lionel is focusing on making an even higher-quality product with a higher price tag than trying to make money on sheer volume. They have other means for making money with their NASCAR stuff.

 

If there is an engine you want but think you're not getting enough bang for your buck then that is OK. It's your choice. But, if you think you're going to get it for a price that is more palatable 6 months to a year later then you're most likely going to be sadly mistaken.

I am actually tired of talking about this lionel will charge what they want they don't care what we think .The new CEO wants  them to be more profitable the icab app is 50 bucks .They charge to fix your legacy remote now. They want us to pay 520 for plastic engines .. I am not paying it .. I have 6 es44s I have enough . Still ****ed about the icab app and the prices in the new catalog and I have to fix every engine cause there not right from the factory.  Maybe it's time for me to look at mth again.. 

Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:
Originally Posted by Landsteiner:

...  Don't let your personal outraged, disappointed feelings dictate your analysis.

Actually, there's nothing "outraged" or "disappointed" about my analysis.  If Lionel is telling us that they honestly need to raise prices to a point where dealers are selling plastic-bodied ES44's at $520-$570, then so be it.  We're all big boys and girls here.  I'm just "suggesting" they probably won't sell too many at that price-point.  They just lost my order for FIVE of them.  And if they don't get sufficient pre-orders, then the item won't even get manufactured.  So then Mr. or Ms. Product Manager goes back to the drawing board to come up with something that WILL sell next year.  That's what they get paid the big bucks to do. 

 

Look... importers/dealers have every right to ask whatever price they want for an item.  And consumers will decide accordingly.  It's a simple system when you cut out all the BS. 

 

David

Well said.  That's really the beauty of the internet and e-commerce - we have a lot of choices these days and it's easy to see what other people are paying for similar items.  There's more transparency in retail than there has ever been, even though some of it is still a little murky.   Build what you want, charge what you want, but it's a lot easier to call "BS" these days 

 

Me?  Im an MTH guy, but don't think for a second that MTH isn't watching this with INTENT interest.   Their pricing strategy in one way or another will be directly related to how the new Lionel prices are accepted in the market. If the big 'L' can get $500+ for a plastic diesel, MTH will be right behind them at $499.   

 

As far as having a captive audience, there's no growth strategy in that.  Assuming that the die-hards will continue to pay is precarious at best long term.   You can bleed them to an extent, but it's not enough to grow the business - maybe not even enough to sustain it.   There's too many quasi-casual hobby guys that will simply gravitate towards something else if things get too crazy.  

Originally Posted by SandJam:

Actually if you guys go talk to your dealers instead on conjecturing on a business you are not in, you would find out why prices have jumped.  Its just simply that Lionel over discounted their items to dealers last year.   I paid 399.00 for last years ES44AC and I was surprised it was that low.  The catalog price was 549.00. So that was 150.00 off catalog price at my dealer.  This year they are 649.00 retail so expecting same discount I'd pay 500.00.  That's actually what I was expecting to pay for last year's Legacy ES44AC, but was surprised it wasn't that high.  I remember thinking it was a low price for this diesel.  I don't know why you think Lionel is the only company in the world raising prices.  Every bill I pay goes up every year.  Its not like they are Apple and sell a Gazillion items and make it up on volume.   They have to make enough substantial profit to be able to produce the items, service the item, ship, insure, pay all those employees you love so much, medical benefits, retirement, design, engineering, etc, etc, etc.  I'm surprised they can do it at all.  Plastic bodes have nothing to do with anything.  And if you think labor in the Orient is still super cheap like it was 10 years ago, you need to starting reading the financial news more. 

If I want it and I can afford it, I will buy it even if it was cheaper last year.

This year I'm getting the BNSF ES44AC even if it is 100.00 more. 

I'm getting the Legacy PRR B6 switcher and the Legacy Empire State Express Set and extra cars.

If I can afford it and it does not compromise my financial well being and its something I really like.  SOLD!

With BTO, there won't be all these trains on the secondary market where everyone seems to think they will be able to buy these trains.  Actually some of them will be a lot higher on the secondary market because they are BTO and it won't be flooded with them and they will be harder to obtain. 

I'm sure while Lionel works out the BTO and optimal pricing spot we will see things go up and down for a few years, but in general everything goes up no matter what industry it is.  Simple as that.  I mean you may not buy a BMW because you think its not worth the price, but BMW sure has had no problem staying in business.

 

Some people on here are living in the past.  The world is expensive. And the most expensive things in the world are men's toys.  HAHA.

 

I guess PT Barnum was right........

Originally Posted by MLAT:
Originally Posted by SandJam:

Actually if you guys go talk to your dealers instead on conjecturing on a business you are not in, you would find out why prices have jumped.  Its just simply that Lionel over discounted their items to dealers last year.   I paid 399.00 for last years ES44AC and I was surprised it was that low.  The catalog price was 549.00. So that was 150.00 off catalog price at my dealer.  This year they are 649.00 retail so expecting same discount I'd pay 500.00.  That's actually what I was expecting to pay for last year's Legacy ES44AC, but was surprised it wasn't that high.  I remember thinking it was a low price for this diesel.  I don't know why you think Lionel is the only company in the world raising prices.  Every bill I pay goes up every year.  Its not like they are Apple and sell a Gazillion items and make it up on volume.   They have to make enough substantial profit to be able to produce the items, service the item, ship, insure, pay all those employees you love so much, medical benefits, retirement, design, engineering, etc, etc, etc.  I'm surprised they can do it at all.  Plastic bodes have nothing to do with anything.  And if you think labor in the Orient is still super cheap like it was 10 years ago, you need to starting reading the financial news more. 

If I want it and I can afford it, I will buy it even if it was cheaper last year.

This year I'm getting the BNSF ES44AC even if it is 100.00 more. 

I'm getting the Legacy PRR B6 switcher and the Legacy Empire State Express Set and extra cars.

If I can afford it and it does not compromise my financial well being and its something I really like.  SOLD!

With BTO, there won't be all these trains on the secondary market where everyone seems to think they will be able to buy these trains.  Actually some of them will be a lot higher on the secondary market because they are BTO and it won't be flooded with them and they will be harder to obtain. 

I'm sure while Lionel works out the BTO and optimal pricing spot we will see things go up and down for a few years, but in general everything goes up no matter what industry it is.  Simple as that.  I mean you may not buy a BMW because you think its not worth the price, but BMW sure has had no problem staying in business.

 

Some people on here are living in the past.  The world is expensive. And the most expensive things in the world are men's toys.  HAHA.

 

I guess PT Barnum was right........

Gee what a mature response.  Ha ha.  Like I said, living in the past. 

Originally Posted by SandJam:

...

Ok lets get our facts straight.  ...

SandJam, your post was riddled with inaccuracies.  But like jojofry (and I'm sure a few others as well), I'm tired of talking about this topic beyond the points that many of us have already made.  If you can't follow the math that's been done, that says something right there.  Nobody here was complaining about MSRP -- at least not on this thread.  And we mentioned several times that the issue at hand had nothing to do with affordability either.   

 

We also never said Lionel is the only importer raising prices.  Everybody has experienced serious overseas labor issues including MTH and Atlas-O who both had major factory resources yanked from underneath them a couple of years ago.  In fact, Atlas-O, more than anyone, has probably raised prices and cancelled more catalog'd items due to insufficient orders.  So Lionel will likely be no different in this regard, given the price increases being rolled out in 2015.

 

And one more parting thought... Nothing could be more "living in the past" than the notion that BTO products are gonna maintain their desirability factor due to low production volumes.  The only way that's gonna happen is if importers stop producing trains altogether.  And that doesn't seem too likely in the near-term. Anything produced today will be a victim of the technology-treadmill. The whole collectibility ship sailed years ago.  

 

In short, your post was a complete disconnect from what was being discussed -- aside from the fact that it's pretty obvious you've had more than a few sips of the Lionel Kool-Aid again.  Ha ha ha... 

 

David 

 

 

 

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer

It is what it is. Folks will decide if an item will be purchased or passed by. I know for me after 60 some years of accumulating electric trains I ask myself do I really need it and do I really want to spend the bucks for it. I still buy some new stuff but the big buck item purchases are after they hit a dealers blow out sale.

In a shrinking market of any kind, producers try to maximize profits by selling fewer products at higher prices to fewer but enthusiastic and well-heeled consumers.  The O Gauge market, however we feel about it, is literally a "dying" market.  Lionel and other companies realize they have to lure and catch these elite and addicted consumers before it is too late.  I for one am not, nor have I ever been, in the top "1%" of paying customers for any high-end consumer product.  It is not  just Lionel that is attempting to squeeze more blood from fewer turnips.

Originally Posted by Rocky Mountaineer:

Originally Posted by SandJam:

...

Ok lets get our facts straight.  ...

SandJam, your post was riddled with inaccuracies.  But like jojofry (and I'm sure a few others as well), I'm tired of talking about this topic beyond the points that many of us have already made.  If you can't follow the math that's been done, that says something right there.  Nobody here was complaining about MSRP -- at least not on this thread.  And we mentioned several times that the issue at hand had nothing to do with affordability either.   

 

We also never said Lionel is the only importer raising prices.  Everybody has experienced serious overseas labor issues including MTH and Atlas-O who both had major factory resources yanked from underneath them a couple of years ago.  In fact, Atlas-O, more than anyone, has probably raised prices and cancelled more catalog'd items due to insufficient orders.  So Lionel will likely be no different in this regard, given the price increases being rolled out in 2015.

 

And one more parting thought... Nothing could be more "living in the past" than the notion that BTO products are gonna maintain their desirability factor due to low production volumes.  The only way that's gonna happen is if importers stop producing trains altogether.  And that doesn't seem too likely in the near-term. Anything produced today will be a victim of the technology-treadmill. The whole collectibility ship sailed years ago.  

 

In short, your post was a complete disconnect from what was being discussed -- aside from the fact that it's pretty obvious you've had more than a few sips of the Lionel Kool-Aid again.  Ha ha ha... 

 

David 

 

 

 

You should try to have an open mind and respect other peoples opinions and just give rebuttals, but not belittle someone with sly comments just because you disagree with them.  Its not a very nice trait. And it really has no productive value. You could just say I totally disagree and have been done with it.   This is what turns young people off to the hobby.  They try to get involved and participate and get shot down like their opinions don't matter.  Perhaps this hobby is too stressful for you and you should try stamp collecting or something. Some of us just like buying and running trains! So I will buy what I can afford and won't what I can't.  Either way, Lionel is producing some of the best trains they ever have before, and I am enjoying them immensely. Price increases do not bother me if it means they stay in business. 

Thank you for listening to my opinion.

 

Last edited by Sean's Train Depot

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