Price concern on lionels new products

Legacy Station and others has them for around $520.00

Neal Jeter

In addition, unless your spending $2000 on a VL loco. As far as steam goes, I'm noticing shortcuts being taken in the sound dept.

YES.  I have only been buying used because of the prices, although, i've recently been learing about Williams. 

It's not just Lionel but everyone.  I don't see anything anymore under a grand when it comes to big steam engines(4-6-4 or larger).  Also a reason I wait for something to pop up on the buy sell board.

This has been discussed quite frequently in other threads here on the forum. 

The general consensus is that most people are a bit dumbfounded as to the material price increases without any commensurate updates in the models (I think the ES44s are probably the biggest point of contention).  An updated paint job does not warrant a 30% jump in price in my humble opinion.  I understand there are exogenous factors that need to be taken into consideration when attributing such an increase, but let's be honest, that sort of a jump is just ridiculous on a year over year basis.  

I would have ordered both NS black schemes, but at approximately 1K of spend on both, I'd rather acquire an older all die-cast unit.  Again, that is just my personal preference. 

Buy or don't buy,  those are your options. Complaining here will not change anything

Mth  prices seem to be holding much steadier, and at least you know what your getting.

Personally, I think

1) Lionel's pricing leaves room for some significant dealer discounts.

2) After those discounts the prices are both realistic and value for the money: a $520 Legacy ES44ac is, frankly, if not a bargain, definitely good value for the money as I see it.

3) Everything I see, both the BTO program and how quickly dealers are running out of new models when announced, indicates Lionel is producing only enough to sell out fairly quickly.

4) QED I think they will sell what they produce at the somewhat-discounted prices dealers are offering, and that buyers, the dealers who sell them, and Lionel, will all be pleased about it. 

I think Lionel is on a roll, if they can keep quality up, which worries me.

I gave up buying anything new a long time ago.  I won't pay those prices. The used market is a pretty good place to get stuff

After listening to Notch 6 interview with Mike Reagan talking about the issue with the aluminum passenger cars and Lionel going plastic for the future runs, did the price on these passenger cards come down at least a little????  I'd bet not. Not complaining just pointing something out.

This is how I feel exactly Lee.  MSRP is a wish.  And you know what they say about wishing...  LOL

+1

Jeff Davis

Lionel is free to set prices and produce a level of quality anyway that they wish. If you don't like the prices alter your buying habits.

I have four engines running on my layout right now. Three are Made in the USA. There is a Williams F7 PRR, Lionel MPC  NYC F3 A/A,  5340 Scale Hudson NYC, and a Jersey Central FM ( believe Kuhn era).  The total combined cost of all four engines purchased NEW was $1015 and half of that was for the 1990 Scale Hudson. Point is that prices are all over the place. Overstocks, closeouts, overruns, slightly bruised, collectors selling off to upgrade, estate sales and even used present many alternatives.

If you want real VALUE for your hard earned money you need not look too far.

This has been discussed at length over the past couple of weeks. Simple solution, if you don't like the pricing, just skip the item.

Actually quite the opposite, sounds more like a horse that just woke up.

Joe

Why is it everyone keeps forgetting this one thing? There is the, MSRP and as always, "The Actual Street Price".

In this catalog, The Actual Street Price on many items is only $20-$30 dollars shy of MSRP. In the past it was more like $100-$200 or even more depending on the item.

I.E recent legacy berks sell for $400 less than MSRP which puts them right at the same "street price"as  the last time they were offered in 2010 with a "rebate".  The 2104 vol 2 actual "dealer street price" was closer to previous offerings.

This time the "big early buy/preorder discounts" really aren't there, so IMO the price "rants " are more valid. Things are without a doubt hundreds of dollars more than previous offerings.

 I'm the first guy to say, "don't worry, actual Lionel selling price will be way lower than MSRP."  Not anymore.

I'll let Rockymountaineer take over from here

I have to agree with Rick.  This is a steep increase even at the discount level. 

As everyone else, I will continue to buy what I can afford and pass on things I can't.

The built to order tactic may have shrunk supply and making the two ends meet could have caused a higher unit price. More of the same to follow....none of this is surprising.

If this theory is not true it sure seems very coincidental.

That has the same appeal to most as telling a chocoholic to avoid sweets. Another way to put it is to be cut off when your bar tab gets too high. When it comes to angst, file this under "easier said then done."

Its funny i dont mind paying 425 or 450 for the es44s .. But 519 to 570 street prices forget it.. Its funny when the visionline bigboy came out i held my line under 2k so i paid 1900 ...I hate to see when they make the visionline allegheny what its gonna cost... Maybe its time to get a jlc one and put a err cruise and superchuffer in it..  save my self 1100 bucks.

"That has the same appeal to most as telling a chocoholic to avoid sweets."

The manufacturer controls the price they set to their dealers and distributors. They in turn determine the actual retail pricing. We can all talk about this until the cows come home, but it is the market that in the final analysis determines the success of a product which includes it's street cost. Chocolate, though Valentine's Day is tomorrow, has little to do with it (figuratively). 

Well thanks for the shout-out Rick.    But I think I've said all I can on this topic in a couple of the other threads.  My last hold-out was hoping Charlie Ro's new price-list might have some super early-buy prices for the ES44's, and that the new price-points were all just a bad dream.  But that didn't happen.

The only folks buying the ES44's are probably guys thinking they'll be able to flip them for even higher prices if production volumes are super low.  But a redux of the die-cast jewels these ain't.  I guess some folks are watching too much HGTV.  

At these prices, some of this stuff is DOA in my book before it even makes its way into production.

David 

I don't think that the market has remained as it once was. It has changed radically in several terms, whether it's distribution, built to order, hardware for the software for the trains etc. I think it's a two way street and I disagree that buyers are completely in the driver's seat. My comment was focused on desire versus attainability and as you said, this is repetitive angst...and the driver of this, over and over again is cost. If there were no thwarted desire there would be no posts expressing it. Saying that to not purchase A or B as a choice does an end run about this dynamic of folks feeling they are locked out. I can only say that I know from my own experience that model trains can be as addictive as anything else...and therein lies the heart of the matter as I see it..rightly or wrongly. 

I wish I had a dime for every collector and operator who amassed a ton of these toys that as kids had no control over what their parents could afford, and that led them to fulfill that desire much later..it strike me as ironic that for many, this situation has come full circle. Unless you have deep pockets.

On the one hand, if you dont like the LIonel's or MTH's prices on something and you want to complain where else can you complain and HOPE that the manufacturer hears you but here on the OGRR forum.

On the other hand, if you dont like the prices, as has been said many many times, . . .dont buy!

Considering that point, I wonder if some of this will get cancelled due to low order volume, even with the BTO program limiting Lionel's risk.

Dave

Considering that it seems prototypically correct to run a Heritage unit with one or more NS black units, isn't this just a case of Lionel being opportunistic when releasing the paint scheme that every existing heritage owner is sure to buy?

I would like a couple of the NS ES44AC's but at the street prices that is a no go. For the guys who can afford them, all the best. 

But it seems like lionel is pricing out a good segment of their buyers. Lots of stuff out there on the secondary so I'll see some of you guys there also. 

If you like it and can afford it then buy it.  If not about 2-3 years down the line someone will sell it, and you'll find it out there somewhere.

I think Lionel knows exactly what they're doing with this pricing strategy.  I don't have to like or agree with it (and I don't!), but as PTC Brian said, that doesn't really matter.  Here's why... 

The core of Lionel's BTO strategy obviously relies on the fact that there will always be some die-hard fans of each item that is announced willing to pay whatever the "street price" turns out to be.  Lionel knows that some (but not all) of us can't help ourselves...we simply won't have the willpower to put our wallets away even with 30% higher prices because we HAVE to have certain items.  Or as electroliner stated above, there are some "train addicts" amongst us!

Basic economics will tell you that by moving forward with BTO and higher wholesale/"street" prices, there's a good chance that individual item production runs will likely be lower than they would have been prior to BTO.  However, profit per item wholesaled will be certainly be much greater. 

And if all else fails and enough pre-orders don't come in to justify a production run for a particular item, they just don't build that item.  They will continue to push the envelope with pricing to find the sweet spot between volume and profit per unit to give themselves maximum profitability at the lowest risk possible.  Remarkably simple strategy when you boil it down!

That all being said, there are two points made so far in this thread that I absolutely 100% disagree with, and let me preface my comments by saying these are just my opinions...

First is Lee's point #2: "After those discounts the prices are both realistic and value for the money: a $520 Legacy ES44ac is, frankly, if not a bargain, definitely good value for the money as I see it". 

Seriously?  Not when the "street price" for basically the exact same items (other than railroad name/paint scheme, etc.) is about 30% less right now, and not when compared to the street prices for their chief competitors' models.  I'm sorry, but are they planning to add 30% 25% heck, even 20% more in new, tangible features to these products to make them a value for the money?  No!!

Second, some members have repeatedly stated that we shouldn't continue to discuss pricing because it has already been discussed many times before, or because manufacturers can do whatever they want with MSRP.   

Why not?  After all, we are the actual consumers for these items and therefore should have every right to voice our opinions on a very, very relevant topic.  We all know that most of the manufacturers monitor this Forum, and they should not be immune from hearing our feedback loud and clear!!   

In fact, I would like to turn things around on those who don't like it when some of us discuss price.  How about this one...you don't HAVE to read the thread, let alone comment on it.  Just move on and let us vent!  Kind of a novel idea, eh?  And for those who always feel the need to defend the manufacturers, just let it go!  I'm sure they can all handle themselves just fine if they feel the need to do so.    

Only time will tell. 

--Greg

AMEN to that, brother Joe!!!!

Discussing price and providing an analysis of market dynamics IS an integral part of "talking trains".  It's a sad day when a small group of forum regulars gets to determine which topics are encouraged for discussion. 

David 

The bottom line is Lionel has a segment of the O gauge community that will buy any product that Lionel makes regardless of price. If Lionel's products wasn't selling, Lionel would cancel the products. Remember, you do have a choice. Complaining on the forum isn't going to change what Lionel charges for their products.

PS... this complaining goes on with EVERY CATALOG THAT LIONEL RELEASES!!!!

Seriously Lee?  We're certainly all entitled to our opinions, but let's call a spade a spade here.  Ain't no way on God's wonderful green Earth here that $520 is a "bargain" for a silly diesel locomotive.  Did Lionel send you a truckload of Kool-Aid lately??? 

David

Has anyone checked.. Maybe Gary MoreDoe came back???

Joe

Uh... right... 

Just like complaining here and to Lionel reps at York when whistle-steam was eliminated from steamers didn't get the feature re-introduced the following year.  Give us a break, please.  Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.  Everybody needs a reality check from time to time... Including the boys who play with spreadsheets behind computer screens all day.   

David

David, This is my point exactly( Consumers have every right to voice their opinions when they're the ones shelling out the big bucks.) Why complain when you're selling out the big bucks?? You still have a choice! Don't buy the product if it's too high to afford!!! Wait until you can buy the product used or at a discount!! 

Lionel laughs all the way to the bank!! They already know that a certain segment of the O gauge community is going to complain about the prices THEN go and purchase that same product that they were complaining about!!!

It seems most manufactures/distributors have been raising prices. My guess is costs continue to rise to produce items. But supply and demand will determine what price lionel can charge in the end. I think we are hitting a price point where they will either get more for what they sell or make less. AS for dealers you will see less of them also. We still have a strong secondary market and it just gets harder to sell big ticket items. 500 dollars for a engine is just not a everyday purchase for everyone.. Even the RTR sets have gotten expensive. Who wants to spent 3oo to 400 dollars for a train set for a 10 a ten year old. I do know one thing the dealers are not getting rich. Lionel now gives dealers a bigger discount on big ticket items and less discount on the bread and butter items. track.etc.. We still have more product that the market can bear. Plus the used market will continue to grow since How many of us have hoarded trains even new in the box to find we just dont need them anymore and our familys have no interest in continuing on with our hobby..  Time will tell.. I know I have only one engine I kept for myself and that was a MTH since you can get the same features for less the 400 dollars.. I could never buy a 2000 dollar engine no matter how cool it is.. Thats just me..