Pricing of New Old Stock

Imo. It depends on the particular model and it's features. I.e. whether it has 2 chuffs and a puffer type smoke unit or 4 chuffs and a fan driven smoke unit, real coal load or cast etc.

Having said that. I find the build quality and detail to be better on some of the TMCC versions of models. Some have lost bell/ whistle lanyards, tender truck chains and other details when the legacy version was produced.

 FWIW.Lion chief still does not have as many features as TMCC. It's "new"  but it's not better persay. The Bluetooth control is also a very "basic" control method at this point. If and when more features are accessable with either Lion chief or Bluetooth then they will be a bigger "threat". 

Keep in mind the new Lionmaster Lion chief 2.0 big boy does NOT have whistle steam, and is $300 more than the legacy equipped whistle steam version from a few years ago

 Of course, "how much YOUR willing to pay" is still the ultimate decider.

There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel and many other brands of engines and cars. Most were years old and had outdated sound system and running equipment. They even had some S gauge cars that were made by companies that had been out of business for years. Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don

scale rail posted:

There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel  Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don

We have one of those hobby shops in the far western suburbs of Chicago.

They have a wall 10 feet high of new old stock. In fact , the dust covered 15 year old tmcc stuff at msrp is more than the same discounted legacy locomotive on the shelf next to it.

Needless to say....After one visit,I've never been back. 

RickO posted:

scale rail posted:

There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel  Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don

We have one of those hobby shops in the far western suburbs of Chicago.

They have a wall 10 feet high of new old stock. In fact , the dust covered 15 year old tmcc stuff at msrp is more than the same discounted legacy locomotive on the shelf next to it.

Needless to say....After one visit,I've never been back. 

I think I know the store you are referring to.  We stopped one time on our return from visiting family in IL.  One visit was enough.

RickO posted:

scale rail posted:

There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel  Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don

We have one of those hobby shops in the far western suburbs of Chicago.

They have a wall 10 feet high of new old stock. In fact , the dust covered 15 year old tmcc stuff at msrp is more than the same discounted legacy locomotive on the shelf next to it.

Needless to say....After one visit,I've never been back. 

They must be franchising because there are at least three locations in St. Louis! 

There is no right answer.  When my wife had a store(not train) after the holiday (whatever holiday it happened to be) I would try to get her to discount those items and turn them into cash.  I never was successful in convincing her.  After I made her shut the store things went for a lot less.

That said, if you walked into a store and there was postwar Lionel on the shelf for full list price I am not sure there would be anything left on the shelf when you left the store.

Personally, if it is an item I want, the price is running a distant second.

MikeH posted:

RickO posted:

scale rail posted:

There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel  Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don

We have one of those hobby shops in the far western suburbs of Chicago.

They have a wall 10 feet high of new old stock. In fact , the dust covered 15 year old tmcc stuff at msrp is more than the same discounted legacy locomotive on the shelf next to it.

Needless to say....After one visit,I've never been back. 

They must be franchising because there are at least three locations in St. Louis! 

We have it here in Eastern Pa as well. There is one hobby shop that has stuff which is older than I am, still NOS and still at the original price. Some of the boxes have actually faded from age

RickO posted:

scale rail posted:

There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel  Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don

We have one of those hobby shops in the far western suburbs of Chicago.

They have a wall 10 feet high of new old stock. In fact , the dust covered 15 year old tmcc stuff at msrp is more than the same discounted legacy locomotive on the shelf next to it.

Needless to say....After one visit,I've never been back. 

I've been to that place once. Saw the prices and walked out. I have no idea how they stay in business. At least the Chicago area has two other hobby shops that have a focus on O gauge trains, and realistic prices. Most cities aren't so lucky.

Back to the OP. If you're looking for an item that has been made in PS3/Legacy and also in PS2/TMCC then I would say the max I would pay for the older control version is about 60-65% of the MSRP, if it is actually NOS. Any run time and that falls to 50%. 

The real deals are Premier PS1 steam locomotives. Update them to PS3 or ERR TMCC and you can get a scale steam locomotive with command control for about 45% of the cost of a new one, if you do the work yourself. 

I must say, (sucker), is a loose term, One Less informed, or ignorant to the older Merchandise without all the newer bells and whistles and Yes, the price is a major factor. A Sale, is a deal made between 2 parties, after the negotiated price is agreed upon. Some folks are paying unbelievable prices for postwar. Some, are not. There is a place for both, older and also modern trains today. A merchant or any individual seller may ask whatever he feels like, it may or may not sell. I know the value of some older modern trains are losing dollar value. I think the biggest reason for prices bringing top dollar, and those hitting the bottom is, Supply and Demand. Personally, I would rather take a small beatting and move on....Happy Railroading 

CarGuyZM10 posted:

MikeH posted:

RickO posted:

scale rail posted:

There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel  Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don

We have one of those hobby shops in the far western suburbs of Chicago.

They have a wall 10 feet high of new old stock. In fact , the dust covered 15 year old tmcc stuff at msrp is more than the same discounted legacy locomotive on the shelf next to it.

Needless to say....After one visit,I've never been back. 

They must be franchising because there are at least three locations in St. Louis! 

We have it here in Eastern Pa as well. There is one hobby shop that has stuff which is older than I am, still NOS and still at the original price. Some of the boxes have actually faded from age

I live in Nazareth, and we might be thinking of the same place.

drelo posted:

CarGuyZM10 posted:

MikeH posted:

RickO posted:

scale rail posted:

There is a toy/train store I would buy building materials from when we lived on the mainland. They had shelf after shelf of old MTH, Lionel  Everything to this day is full retail price. I don't get it. Don

We have one of those hobby shops in the far western suburbs of Chicago.

They have a wall 10 feet high of new old stock. In fact , the dust covered 15 year old tmcc stuff at msrp is more than the same discounted legacy locomotive on the shelf next to it.

Needless to say....After one visit,I've never been back. 

They must be franchising because there are at least three locations in St. Louis! 

We have it here in Eastern Pa as well. There is one hobby shop that has stuff which is older than I am, still NOS and still at the original price. Some of the boxes have actually faded from age

I live in Nazareth, and we might be thinking of the same place.

Lol yes!  Dozens of faded boxes.

I was just at another local store with some new old stock k-line that is more than the original price.  I don’t understand it. 

Scale Rail is refering to the store in Novato,Ca,I think they make their money on Dolls and related Equipment.

Mikey

There are some real deals to be had on NOS engines from time to time. You just have to be careful. Some super details are available, however, on NOS freight cars. I have picked up some gems for very little money on Ebay by searching diligently for bargains.

I got a lionel tmcc berkshire.When new it was worth$1,100.00 dollars.I went to a train show in hickory n.c.I went in to mainly look around.Just as I came in there it was a virginian tmcc  berkshire .The seller wanted $375.00 for it I could not pass that up.He alway so had a y6b for sale.My layout is not that big and I would not be able run in with my sharp turns O54.To me it depends on what the seller wants for the train.

In my experience, any latest greatest gizmo laden diecast three  rail based loco will experience the same drastic drop in value as the years roll on. 

Planned obsolesence. 

Only spend on a tricked up loco the amount of which you are willing to throw  50% of it away.  Your purchase price is almost like a rent payment. 

Stuff is approaching salvage level resale pricing.  I still get decent returns on my brass sales but my diecast selling returns are pitiful.   Diecast products should come with salt and pepper shakers.

I think some of this falls under the Greater Fool Theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

I can understand why an LHS might put high price tags on an item hoping an uneducated walk-in buyer might pay the premium. And, since an LHS does/can provide value-added advice, I don't begrudge them from seeing MSRP even on NOS.  I chuckle, however, when sellers on auction sites put a 15 y/o NOS item up for sale at the same price as brand-new (and improved) versions listed right there on the same site.  

This is really timely for me.  I was watching an MTH E-8 ABA and passenger car set on ebay this week.  The seller admitted that the sounds and smoke were inoperable.  Tonight it sold for over MSRP.   This was a PS2 set from the 2000 catalog!  I'm sure it's those types of once-in-a-blue-moon sales that encourage sellers to keep rolling the old stuff out there at crazy prices.

Big Consideration to be taken into account when purchasing NOS. Mfgs. have put limits on how long after production they warranty their products.  So, unless you cut a "warranty agreement with the seller" - you got squat if something goes wrong.  BBW!

I know what you're talking about.  A certain garden center (that sells trains) in northwestern PA has MTH PS-1 locomotives at MSRP.  They also had the same PS-2 engine at MSRP right next to it.  The PS-3 version of that locomotive has been released as well.   

You can't make this stuff up.

George

We should never insult a fellow hobbiest purchase choice,  by referring to anyone as a "sucker".  Some folks are just starting out, uninformed.

That's why this forum exists, to share our knowledge and joy in this hobby.

If someone wants an item NIB, because that is how they want it (new in the box), then what they are willing to pay usually ends up being MSRP and sometimes more if the item was limited or very desirable...their choice.

Consider what prices an original 700E or an original 773 hudson in good condition bring.

Some stuff IS out dated, not popular and produced in volume, ("another one of those").

Some people want the simpler electronics with already encountered problems and fixes.

Newer bells and whistles will eventually have their own issues.

It all boils down to personal preferences: pre war. Post war, modern era. Types of control systems (TMCC, LEGACY, PS1,PS2,PS3).

I personally have a TMCC  4-4-2 E6 Pennsylvania Atlantic...really happy with it...no desire to own a Legacy version.

If or when it dies I'll probably look for a "used" replacement or an NIB (at a "reasonable" price). Someone else with similar sentiments might just prefer an NIB at full original MSRP.

In this hobby all that matters is that it's your railroad, and your choices.

Buy what you can afford, buy what YOU like.

If the prices are unreasonable walk away. 

Dont be bullied into "must have" , ........newest is not necessarily best.

Eventually the market place establishes value and price.   

( remember beanie babys?)

It's your railroad.

How does all of these stores have walls of NOS? They would have to eat the cost of all this stuff wouldn't they?

I agree ...i see stuff not selling on ebite.  You make an offer..Rejected.. Used is used.. NOS. things give up. After time.. Rust. Etc.  Then you need to take it apart and repair it. So it's not new.. Never run.. But not new.  New would be when the product was made and sold . bought at  that release.. First owner. After first owner.. It's used. My view..

maybe the price is why it still new old stock 15 years later

I won't buy NOS unless the price is really good. It may be new, but unless you are buying from an authorized dealer, chances are very good there won't be any warranty. I see transformers for sale on Ebay listed by individuals (not authorized dealers) as brand new at the same prices as or even higher prices than dealers charge. They may be "new" in the sense that they have never been used, but the warranty clock started ticking the moment the authorized dealer sold them, and the price should reflect that. 

John

raising4daughters posted:

My personal feeling is that the new old stock is worth about half.

It's pointless to try to quantify any specific valuation of what a certain thing is "worth" compared to something newer. There are way too many variables that go into the equation. A person can't specify a fixed comparative value for this any more than with cars or antiques or most other things. Trying to set a fixed benchmark comparison value is useless.

NOS rolling stock is worth a look - especially Lionel since it has the awesome no-thumbtack truck design.  Steam or diesel stuff is only (if at all) worth more than you would pay at a show used.  YMMV. 

justakid posted:

We should never insult a fellow hobbiest purchase choice,  by referring to anyone as a "sucker".  Some folks are just starting out, uninformed.

That's why this forum exists, to share our knowledge and joy in this hobby.

 

 

You are absolutely correct, we're suppose to encourage new comers in the hobby.

On the other side.....

Yesterday while at an established train shop I spied a very attractive Lionel box car high up on a shelf that I had never recalled seeing advertised before (why do trains always look better on display at the hobby shop then they do in my basement - that'll have to be saved for another discussion). I asked to buy it and they searched high and low and couldn't find one in the box, so they took down the shelf piece and dusted it off with what looked like a decade of dust on it. They found the box - no paperwork but no big deal as its only a boxcar. I kind of jokingly but I guess it came off as serious if there was any discount applied for the dust and received a lecture from the owner about how items are already discounted and the narrow margin he works with. I thought about it and assuming the narrow margin he quoted was correct I can sympathize - mostly from having worked in a small business myself and knowing how challenging it can be is just to meet payroll some weeks. When I got home I figured it out - his regular discount was 25% of MSRP, which is very good IMO - and I will be using the car on my layout, so a little vacuuming and its good to go. I believe it must take very deep pockets to have a brick and mortar hobby shop with extensive inventory.

Question for those scoffing at new old stock priced at MSRP:  Is the store owner waiting for you to make an offer and sees no point in replacing the price tags?  Did you make an offer?

What, me worry?

Paul Kallus posted:

Yesterday while at an established train shop I spied a very attractive Lionel box car high up on a shelf that I had never recalled seeing advertised before (why do trains always look better on display at the hobby shop then they do in my basement - that'll have to be saved for another discussion). I asked to buy it and they searched high and low and couldn't find one in the box, so they took down the shelf piece and dusted it off with what looked like a decade of dust on it. They found the box - no paperwork but no big deal as its only a boxcar. I kind of jokingly but I guess it came off as serious if there was any discount applied for the dust and received a lecture from the owner about how items are already discounted and the narrow margin he works with. I thought about it and assuming the narrow margin he quoted was correct I can sympathize - mostly from having worked in a small business myself and knowing how challenging it can be is just to meet payroll some weeks. When I got home I figured it out - his regular discount was 25% of MSRP, which is very good IMO - and I will be using the car on my layout, so a little vacuuming and its good to go. I believe it must take very deep pockets to have a brick and mortar hobby shop with extensive inventory.

Great reply.

breezinup posted:

raising4daughters posted:

My personal feeling is that the new old stock is worth about half.

It's pointless to try to quantify any specific valuation of what a certain thing is "worth" compared to something newer. There are way too many variables that go into the equation. A person can't specify a fixed comparative value for this any more than with cars or antiques or most other things. Trying to set a fixed benchmark comparison value is useless.

The thing you have to look at is why is the person buying it? Some people are collectors and never take stuff out and run it. To a collector something NOS in new condition (and there is a lot of mpc that was properly stored and looks like it rolled off the line yesterday) may have considerable value. 

That said, the stores that have price stuff to keep must have another income source. The internet and ebay have become the equalizer. People shop around, compare prices, and buy from lower priced sources if possible. We are still in the middle of the retail revolution, who knows how it will ultimately end up. 

Alfred E Neuman posted:

Question for those scoffing at new old stock priced at MSRP:  Is the store owner waiting for you to make an offer and sees no point in replacing the price tags?  Did you make an offer?

While I agree that there is no rhyme or reason with regard to price on NOS, in my experience there is a 100% ironclad guarantee that a lower offer will be scoffed at.  I still offer anyway but that's my experience.  Oh well.  There's too much of this stuff out there to give it much consideration.  Moving on. 

--- Amended to say, I'm talking about MSRP+ NOS stuff.  Obviously, I've haggled and achieved a lower price on some stuff.

breezinup posted:

raising4daughters posted:

My personal feeling is that the new old stock is worth about half.

It's pointless to try to quantify any specific valuation of what a certain thing is "worth" compared to something newer. There are way too many variables that go into the equation. A person can't specify a fixed comparative value for this any more than with cars or antiques or most other things. Trying to set a fixed benchmark comparison value is useless.

I said "about" half. "About" implies a range, doesn't it? 

I never suggested there's a "specific valuation" or formula nor did I ask for a "fixed comparative value" nor did I suggest setting a "fixed benchmark." 

Not quite sure how you got "specific valuation", "fixed comparative value", and "fixed benchmark" out of "about half."  

Good thoughts, interesting perspectives.

Overall, I agree with raising 4, we are talking about general rules that apply to most items and purchasers.  There are outlier items and outlier purchasers. These situations will be at the tail of the bell curve. 

I am probably typical of many on the forum, we like nice items and we like to run them, at least some of the time. In my purchases, I often think an item is worth X% and a frequent benchmark for me is 50%. Then other considerations kick in.

I'll give an example that just happened. I found a MTH Premier Santa Fe 2-10-4 on "the auction site" with a Buy it Now or Best Offer listing. This particular PS2 3V model: https://mthtrains.com/20-3161-1

It was MIB and never run. It listed at $1100 brand new in 2005. I made the seller a offer at less than 50% msrp. He accepted it. I still have yet to pay more than 50% of msrp for MIB locomotives with older (TMCC/PS2) control systems, especially if a Legacy/PS3 version has come out.

Yeah it doesn't have PS3 and the latest "bells and whistles" but that doesn't bother me at all.

For whatever it's worth I always think 50% off or more moves items here.  But a lot of variables so any particular item may break the rule.

Most items of NOS rolling stock have a fairly well-established market value, and defects are easy to spot.  Engines are trickier - made in lesser volume, more things to go wrong, harder to tell exactly what you're getting.  

Until relatively recently, I was unaware of the extent to which electronic components will deteriorate over time, even if they aren't used or abused.  With that in mind, my thought process when buying NOS non-conventional engines is "if I have to put $200+ of repairs into it, will I still be happy with the deal?".

I think there is a big difference between cars and engines.  If I look at some of my Southern steam TMCC engines, I have two, when the Legacy versions came out, I know the "value" plummeted.  

If I were a dealer with new stock, I would realize that when a new catalog comes out that if a older version doesn't move before the new engine shows up, it's likely going sit if I don't discount it heavily.

Regarding cars, I think it's a similar discussion.  I see dealers discounting more as they age.  If you are looking for a specific older car, you can likely find a bargain.  Going to a shop that is selling old items at MSRP doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, but it's their business.  

For me if i I like it I buy it, age is not the big driver.  Perceived value is what is important to me. 

John

Mallard4468 posted:

Until relatively recently, I was unaware of the extent to which electronic components will deteriorate over time, even if they aren't used or abused.  With that in mind, my thought process when buying NOS non-conventional engines is "if I have to put $200+ of repairs into it, will I still be happy with the deal?".

Really good perspective. Thanks!