Prog. DCS to auto pause ps3 engine

Computer is only involved in loading sound files to locos or upgrading TIU and remote software, not in normal ops.  Loader program runs fine on my Win 7.

New to DCS and will be getting into possible options of programming.  Is there a MACRO language that will allow me to establish start and stop points for a PS3 engine.   Wife wants it to travel a bit then stop at station for 30 sec then on to the next.

Using DCS's Record/Playback function will do exactly what you want to do.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition", available for purchase from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Thanks much for the reply.    That is encouraging.  What's the best reference in learning and using this feature?   The new (ver 3) user guide or ??

Since Barry cannot give you an objective reply, being the author of the Companion, I shall:  Barry's book that he references is by far the most complete reference work on DCS.

Thanks Much  I shall make sure I have a copy to study

Just curious. What positioning system is used where the train detects where the station is?

Dale H

Dale,

What positioning system is used where the train detects where the station is?

The record/playback function "memorizes" time, distance and stops.

Dale, using the function indicated, the train does NOT detect where the station is.  The engine uses feedback from its digital tachometer to travel a programmed distance.  To your point, after some number of loops the stopping point can drift due to greasy traction tires, wheel slippage around curves, switches, whatever.  It's literally a your-mileage-may-vary situation with some guys reporting incredible repeat-ability while others need to occasionally re-position the engine and/or re-start the recorded program.

I assume there are layouts where there are no physical stations platforms and just the action of the train occasionally stopping, waiting, and starting is sufficient.

Unlike Lionel's LCS, I am not aware of any integrated positioning system for DCS.  You've probably read the occasional thread about custom-built layouts using RFID chips or related location detection methods, custom electronics and programming, and so on.

Thanks for the info.  It's a small Christmas L shaped village roughly 12 x 8 with two stations in each loop.   We want to have it pause at stations in the loops so the record play should be ok.   Will use a 4 6 0 general and the 2 6 4 express.    Will be unattended quite a bit after  we finish the layout.  hoping for an hour or so without re position.

Cheers

AZBOB

The record/playback records key strokes on the handheld. Therefore it can blow the whistle ring the bell throw switches with AIU. It can take multi passes through a station and then stop and go. It can also do PFA announcements. It can perform the programmed routine over and over.

When engaging the playback the engine must start from the same point as the recording.

That might be  wish full thinking. It will eventually get out of position. However there is probably away to keep it in position by ,, well I haven't figured that one out yet but I believe Barry has at a  display he set up a few years ago. 

Thanks all for the explanations. I made circuits for a few people where I successfully stalled a PS2 engine at a set point by reducing voltage (instead of removing it),while at the same time keeping it in command mode. Definitely works on trolleys. Some locos may be a bit tricky. 

Dale H

This method of reducing track voltage (via an AIU relay for example) could be part of a record/playback function.  By electrically blocking off the section of track in front of a station platform(s), you could insure the engine only stops at a station platform.  Just thinking out loud; maybe someone has thought this through wrt using track voltage control in conjunction with the record/playback function.

Stan

I dont have the system and am not that familiar with it. I thought the AIU relays were 5 amp rated,insufficient for track current. I just used a timed interval relay and the outside insulated rail method. The insulated rail being at the stopping point or points (you could have multiple stops using only 1 timer and relay) which completes the circuit to the interval timer and relay.   You could use 2 feeds of a ZW into to the TIU and track,one set at normal track voltage and the second set at stall voltage. Using the NO and NC contacts of the relay and the common contact to the TIU and track,you could switch from one voltage to another. If using one transformer feed you could use a diode dropper and have the relay bypass it. If only one train runs on the loop there is no need to insulate the center rail.

An alternative method for stopping a train with multi trains on a loop is to use a reed switch between the rails and magnet mounted on the engine underside or passenger car underside in conjunction with a single shot timer and relay. This method has an advantage in that it can ignore trains without a magnet and even be made directional with magnet and reed switch placement on one side or the other. This would require insulating the center rail as well.

On my conventional layout I am building I use both methods. In addition,I added a random stop circuit where the probability of stopping at a given point can be set by dials. (20 percent or fifty percent for example).  Of course conventional has a different set of problems but similar relays and timer circuits are used. I stop the train with a soft stop system, reducing power in steps then leaving 5 or 6 volts on to keep the idle sounds but stalling the train. Then after it times out the train starts in 10 speed steps,first turning the bell on and off, then sounding a whistle sequence,long,long,short then long.

Dale H

This is not good for the longevity of the PS-2 circuit board or motors.  This is effectively like a brown out which is much harder on electronics then a black out (complete lose of power).

This reduces the voltage available to the circuit board and strains the onboard voltage regulator and puts the motors in a stall condition though at low volts.

The processor is still trying to execute the last order which was to keep moving, so it will ramp up applied voltage to the motor since it is not going ordered speed.  G

People who used it had no problem,at least reported to me. I suspect but don't know (since there is no schematic) that the chip shuts down below a certain threshold but the microprocessor keeps going as it uses very little current. No current is passed to the motor.  At least the ones I tested,the wheels stopped spinning all together,even under no load. It is not really a brown out,it is lowering the voltage so that so the chip does not conduct at all.  I do not see how a chip can be damaged with no current flowing through it but I could be wrong.  Try this at your own risk, for sure. My method works on some engines but is at best experimental. Again I dont have or use the DCS system. I have some PS2 engines run in conventional. I have to run them on separate loops by themselves because they have a different and shorter voltage range. I have to start them on 8 volts instead of 5 or the BCR does not work right.  I wish I could turn off the cruise permanently like Lionel engines. Certainly they can be stalled in conventional without damage this way.

One of the reasons I did not go to DCS way back was the lack of an easy positioning system which worked with DCS. My layout even then was fully automated. Trains stopped (sometimes,I had alternating circuits to avoid the same old,same old) in certain positions on the layout.

Relays can offer binary language, the same used by a computer and could have easily been integrated into system inputs. Of course it could have been done a lot of other ways too .   Plus the people at MTH could not even answer simple questions about the system. A simple dip switch could have been used at the bottom of the engine to enable it resume and remember the last state when power was removed.  Seems not hard to do in design. When I power up my computer,I have the option of opening automatically previous windows when it boots.   In a power failure or being unplugged,my television box remembers the last channel and goes to it. It also remembers what programs to record.

Even with DCS layouts, relays are a much better option to activate track side accessories than the expensive IR devices MTH and Lionel offer.

I am sure you guys know a lot more than me fixing and using the system. I appreciate your knowledge.  The function Barry describes is nice and would work on a layout where where it stops has no consequence. I like to stop trains in a precise location,staging them or at a station.

Dale H

Dale you really don't know what is still running or not and what current flows are doing.  You stated the engine does not shutdown so the processor must still be operating.  There just is insufficient Positive Voltage available for the motor to overcome the force necessary to rotate.  But the FET would be commanded to pass full voltage since it is trying to get the motor to turn as originally ordered.

So current is flowing through the windings and the micro chips are operating probably near a low voltage level.  Then the voltage snaps back to full.

In principle I can't see how that is good for the electronics or motors.  I know it was done that way for mechanical e- unit engines and such, but those windings seemed more robust than what is in DC can motors.  G

WRT the OP's auto-pause application, I think Dale's stall concept might be a way to periodically re-calibrate the distances.  For example, what if every 10 minutes (or whatever) the record/playback function triggers an AIU relay to stall the engine at the station by switching in the lower "holding" voltage.  Then after some programmed time-interval set when recording, the engine starts back up again.  If the engine was running fast/slow it would be held for a shorter/longer time interval at the station.  But when the motion resumes, it seems the system is now re-calibrated with any accumulated position "drift" zeroed out for another 10 minutes (or whatever) of running.

It is Halloween and the Devil's in the details so, yes, consideration on AIU relay current and stalling effects on the electronics need consideration but this is after all a discussion forum.

Thanks for the reply George.

All I can tell you is that in the 1950s Lionel managed to stop a train at the station with a bi metal strip. Though crude this worked reasonably well. With all the high tech that the DCS system has,I don't understand why provisions were not made in design to accomplish the same thing. I make circuits for people sometimes. One guy had 2 DCS trolleys run in command and wanted to automatically avoid a collision at a crossover. This method I described earlier is the only way I could come up with for doing it. For better or worse,the trollies stalled and stopped appropriately, then resumed in the command mode when the crossing was clear. I do ask people to report any problems with my circuits,so I can improve them.No one reported a problem,but that does not say there are none with this method. Nothing is good for electronics,they can go bad just sitting in a box on a shelf.  

I used to rebuild amplifiers. One of my worst nightmares was someone plugging in an old one after 10 to more years of non use. Usually replacing capacitors was all that was needed,but if it is plugged in it can burn up the transformer and power supply. I did old stuff and some newer stuff and you do new stuff. Kudos to you,I mean that sincerely. I know you try to help people here. 

Without positioning logic I have no way of sending a signal or identifying and addressing the proper unit to command it to stop. Without relays or something else,there is no way to establish position logic like I have in conventional.   You could use an elaborate bar code scanner on each engine to identify it.  Even if I accomplished all this, using DCS,I have no way of sending a command code to the appropriate engine.  

If someone has a better solution for automatically stopping a DCS engine in command at a  given point I would love to hear it. I am always open to new ideas.

Dale H

Dale, I recall the Lionel devices that stopped trains.  They cut the power completely, as I recall.  This triggered the E-unit, and Lionel used to say turn off the E-unit so loco will restart in same direction.

It would be possible to place a relay between board and loco that would open when voltage dropped below a certain point, disconnecting the loco, but I won't venture even a guess as to effect on board.

FYI, about 30-40 years ago, there was a device marketed for HO, the "Jerry Martin Centriclutch," as I recall, which declutched the motor at slow RPMs.

RJR

Actually they showed a wire wound resistor across the pins,which kept the Eunit operational. 

A mechanical clutch is not a bad idea,but with modern electronics available it could easily be done electronically. 

A relay disconnecting the power to the motors I think would be too abrupt and would confuse the electronics. You would have snap starts and stops,something I avoid in conventional with relays.

Here is a link to a board I made with soft stop and start for someone wanting a children's display.

LINK

I would not know how to do this simple task with command operation,since whenever the power is removed it has to be reset with a hand held device. . 

Dale H

Dale, some of the devices may have had the resistor, but I distinctly recall the lockout recommendation.  As GGG notes, the old Lioonel motors were a bit more robust, with more iron to absorb and transmit heat.

Pondering your issue from the curbstone (i.e., a curbstone opinion means without detailed analysis), if you're a real electronic wizbang and don't mind digging into and mutilating a remote, you could wire a relay across the direction push button terminals of a remote, which when triggered would flick thrice, and then pause before flicking a 4th time.   MAYBE!

In the Lionel manual,they recommended a user added resistor. It was not furnished by Lionel.  I think it was 5 ohm,25 watt adjustable wire wound or something like that. You could also lock it in forward. That was more reliable. Might have been 10 ohm,not sure.  It connected across the center rail plastic pin of the isolated center section. Problem with this method is that you could fry the resistor in a derailment. 

Dale H

"Pondering your issue from the curbstone (i.e., a curbstone opinion means without detailed analysis), if you're a real electronic wizbang and don't mind digging into and mutilating a remote, you could wire a relay across the direction push button terminals of a remote, which when triggered would flick thrice, and then pause before flicking a 4th time. MAYBE!"

RJR

I could do that fairly easily with electromechanical relays and timers. A solid state circuit could also be made to do it,perhaps easier. As for the remote,I am not familiar with it as to what the commands are or how they are made so I can not say for sure. Also if 2 or more engines are on a loop,you would have to address and select the proper one. That is a much harder problem.

Dale H

Problem with this method is that you could fry the resistor in a derailment.

Yup.  In the 50's I used resistors---actually 1-foot lengths of fine wire---to regulate voltager on a piuke with grades, and a derailment considerably shortened their life.

That is a much harder problem.

Very much.  I was not thinking in terms of directly issuing commands.  The remote has a chiclet-like pad, with conductive areas under each chiclet closing contact between 2 traces.  I suspect the pad could be replaced with 2 wires soldered to each chiclet's contacts.  Notice I said "I suspect." I have not analyzed it in enough detail to suggest it; just throwing out an idea.

Dale, You can lock an MTH in a specific direction and turn power off.  When you turn power on via the relay it will start up and start moving.  So you can do this in either conventional or command.

In command you have PFA so you could sequence it that way.  Or just control it with DCS.

Additionally, while using DCS an engine can be placed on a block where the voltage is lower and selected for conventional ops via the Remote and it will operate in conventional unit the mode is selected back to DCS.

So there are plenty of ways to skin this cat.   G

I do remember there were methods to keep the E-unit energized enough that it did not drop out while allowing the Motor to stall.  It was PW stuff.  The e-unit is energized the whole time anyway.  The PW universal motor could handle it, though I imagine leaving it that way over night might not work.  G

OK Guys,   A Lot of info here and being a newbie I have gone from OK,  record/play will work for me to Whoa! - don't want to cook the engines.   Since we are in the process of building the layout I am in a time crunch as we have the basic layout in place and track down and wired but I am currently rewiring a Gazillion! battery powered LED lighting items and converting houses to LED.   So adding anything special is marginal this year.    

Thus is there a consensus on what is now recommended??

BTW   I really appreciate this forum!  Everyone is very engaged and when I ask questions I am getting quality answers.   Thank You ALL! 

Keep it simple to start and do what Barry's book says.  Adjust from there if it doesn't suit your needs.  If this is a passenger set the precision is not as important as long as some of the cars are in staging area.  If this was a freight dump car position would be more important, but that is what command control is for.  G

In this discussion, stopping or stalling the engine at specific physical locations (stations) is based on lowering the track voltage in the vicinity. This means electrically isolating sections of track to which you can apply some TBD voltage under program control.  But if out of time and track is down and wired, this does not seem in the cards for this season.

So as GGG suggests, see what you get with the record/playback function.

Then re-visit next year as your wife will surely come up with new scenarios.

Only briefly touched upon above but if you "only" have 2 engines in your Christmas layout another method is to add electronics INSIDE each engine to disable the motor upon some external trigger.  Something as "simple" as a 25-cent Infrared LED on the station platform can be turned on under program control via an AIU output. The engine would see this LED and cut power to its motor at the station until the LED turns off.  Again, various details to work out...

Thanks much     think I will go with simple this year.  Although the infared led is interesting.   If everything is going well I may try that option but I think next year will be a bit easier  as the major design stuff will be done. 

Again  thanks to everyone.   I am now reading the new dcs guide awaiting receipt of my tiu and remote.