PRR M1b (continued) question...maybe a real train question too.

I'm probably wrong, but zooming in on the prototype picture, it looks to me as if the bracket was shaped to fit the smoke box. Much easier than flattening the smoke box front.

That's kind of what I was thinking, but I just wanted to make sure.  I guess some glazing putty is in order.

The Weaver model has the bracket extended/spaced beyond the curved section of the smoke box door.

Thank you, Mike.

the railroad would not modify the smokebox door to accommodate an appliance. always the other way around.

That is surely a minute detail.  From reading the topic heading I would have thought that you were discussing the entire locomotive.

I think the M1 with eight axle tender is the best looking, even though the one in my collection is an M1a with six axle tender.  I am convinced that two different shaped boilers were used, with one having a graceful taper from smokebox to barrel, and the other a bit more pudgy.  I could be wrong - the only documentation I have is photos.

I have the drivers, and it is only a question of time before I make my preferred version.

That's just a modeling shortcut by the manufacturer.  I wish I had seen that photo of the prototype when I was adding/moving details on my NPBL 2-8-0, it was purchased from the PRR and retained the Dynamo on the front as well as that flat plate (where you can stand?) shown on your model.

PRR Man posted:

the railroad would not modify the smokebox door to accommodate an appliance. always the other way around.

Absolutely correct! There would have been no modifications to either of the front doors on the smokebox of any steam locomotive. The slightest hole or gasket leak on the smokebox, would seriously affect the vacuum within the smokebox and thus the drafting of the fire in the firebox. 

Thanks.  To the modelers out there, I was going to use autobody glazing putty to restore the contour of the flattened part...any other suggestions?

bob2 posted:

That is surely a minute detail.  From reading the topic heading I would have thought that you were discussing the entire locomotive.

I think the M1 with eight axle tender is the best looking, even though the one in my collection is an M1a with six axle tender.  I am convinced that two different shaped boilers were used, with one having a graceful taper from smokebox to barrel, and the other a bit more pudgy.  I could be wrong - the only documentation I have is photos.

I have the drivers, and it is only a question of time before I make my preferred version.

THE reference for the PRR M-1/M-1a/b is Bert Pennypacker's book "Pennsylvania Dual Service Mountains; Classic Power No.8 (NJ International)"

The M-1 of 1928 started off with an I-1 boiler and L-1 cylinders. The later M-1a used the same boiler with some fiddling of internal components, e.g. heating surface. I could not find any comment regarding changes from M-1 to M-1a in boiler and firebox dimensions.

By the way -the M-1 or M-1a/b is pretty nearly my favorite PRR loco. I have a 3rd Rail version, lovely model, if fiddly to connect tender to loco.

I have that book, and at one point had it memorized.  I have not found any definitive discussion of boiler shape, but the I1 had a slightly fatter K4 boiler with a very graceful taper.  Check out photos - I will find the ones that give me pause and refer you to them.

bob2 posted:

I have that book, and at one point had it memorized.  I have not found any definitive discussion of boiler shape, but the I1 had a slightly fatter K4 boiler with a very graceful taper.  Check out photos - I will find the ones that give me pause and refer you to them.

Going to turn you into a Foamer yet

Go to the PRRTHS web site and look up the diagrams for the M-1 and M-1a. You might have a point.

If you just go ahead and use the Lionel part, if it reproduces the stand, it may not really be noticeable.

I am looking at page 180 & 181 of Stauffer's Pennsy Power III.

The M1 appears to have a graceful conical taper that ends aft of the sand dome.  That seems to be true of the Juniata locomotive, all of the Lima, and at least 6811 from Baldwin, also an M1. The bottom two on p. 181 are Baldwin M1a's, and have an abrupt taper ending apparently at the front face of the sand dome.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I sure like the earlier graceful boilers and outside steam pipes.

I am sorry but the poster Ron H. is right. That smoke box front from the PRR Museum at Strasburg, when blown up on my droid does show a flattened front to accommodate the dynamo platform.

I'm getting closer.  I have an exhaust to add as well as a electrical conduit box of some  type, but let me know what you honestly think so far.  I also added more scale looking wheels.  Thanks for all/any suggestions.

Larry I offer the following as constructive feedback if you would like to further upgrade the front end of your M1b

•  replace the "diving helmet" style classification lights on the smokebox.  They are characteristic of prewar PRR steam power while your model has details associated with postwar PRR steam.  The Pennsy stopped using class lights around 1940, but retained front end marker (red lens)  lights in 3 different styles and mounting locations.  If Helmet style markers were used they were mounted down on the pilot beam.  If smaller oval (sometimes called tombstone) or round bulls eye style markers were used they were mounted in the same location as the prewar helmet style classification lights - but on different brackets.  The easy fix would be to replace Lionel's helmet class lights with lost wax brass "bulls eye" PRR marker lights  (small red lens) available from Bowser/Cal-Scale.
• add an exhaust steam line from the turbo generator extending over the smoke box to a location behind the stack
• Add a drop coupler clevis retaining bar and lift pin piping
• extend/add piping from the front air tank to back under the running boards
• file off the cast on pilot beam hand grabs and replace them with wire ones

and the easiest upgrade of all for any PRR steam locomotive - get some Clover House PRR dry transfers and apply division and engine house assignment letters (white) to the pilot.  

Thanks, Ed.  Yes, I am adding that exhaust line, but it hasn't arrived yet.  I will look for the Post-war styled class lights.  I guess PSC would be a good source, too?  Great idea on the dry transfers!  I will look into those straight away.  

What was the circled box and wires for in the pic below?  That is my next step.  I am going to try and straighten the crooked piping coming off of the generator; it's just not appeasing to the eye.

Thanks again.

Larry Mullen posted:

Thanks, Ed.  Yes, I am adding that exhaust line, but it hasn't arrived yet.  I will look for the Post-war styled class lights.  I guess PSC would be a good source, too?  Great idea on the dry transfers!  I will look into those straight away.  

What was the circled box and wires for in the pic below?

Electrical conduit carrying the wires from the Dynamo into the junction box, and then into the hand railing/piping.

 That is my next step.  I am going to try and straighten the crooked piping coming off of the generator; it's just not appeasing to the eye.

Thanks again.

 

 

 

Thank you.

Larry - now that you are a certified SPF - with your M1b were talking marker lights - not class lights.  Different color, different function. Class lights (green or white) designated the classification of a train - scheduled second section, or an extra.  Pennsy stopped using classification lights to designate trains in 1940, and shortly after as locomotives were shopped removed the helmet style fixtures from the smokebox of their steam locomotive fleet.   Marker lights (red to the rear and with old style PRR helmet markers yellow to the side) were only lit when that end of the engine, tender, caboose, or passenger car was physically at the end of a "train" (lit markers face to the rear of the train).  On the PRR an example of lit markers on a locomotive would be on a helper engine running light down Horseshoe Curve to Altoona for another push.  If the engine was turned on the balloon track at the top of the hill and running forward back to Altoona the red markers on the tender would be lit.  If the locomotive was backing down the grade to Altoona (less common practice) the red markers on the engine would be lit.  Due to operating circumstances it was less common to find lit the front end red markers on a PRR steam locomotives.  To avoid out of scale wires poking through the smokebox  I don't bother lighting the engine markers on my Pennsy steam locomotives .

The PSC catalog has castings for the  tombstone style markers used on Q2's (PSH-4575) and J1's (PSH 4460), but not like ones I've seen on M1a's/M1b's. The Cal-Scale bulls eye marker light casting (#190-3043) is for the style of markers on the M1a/M1b photos in this thread.    Adding to modeler's confusion - both PSC and Cal-Scale mislabel their PRR markers "classification lights".  I would have hoped companies making super-detailing parts for Pennsy locomotives would know the difference! 

Thanks again for the replies.  I'm getting quite an education here!

Here is an older picture of the 6755, but I can't quite make out the division and engine house letters.  If I had to say, "PGH" is on the right side, but don't know what the other one is.  Dumb question, but if I wanted something in the Harrisburg/Altoona area, what would a combination be?

Also, what is the pipe called and used for that is circled in the 2nd pic below?  I can't find it in the PSC catalog?  Was it used just on M1b's or did M1a's have it too?

Larry - I believe the pipes on the smokebox (larger one on the other side) are associated with the feed water heater.  M1's did not have pipes in the locations the M1a's/ M1b did.  As far as assignment initials on the pilot beam - I'd go with PGH (Pittsburgh Div) on the left of the pilot facing the viewer and EA (East Altoona  engine house) on the right.  There are several M1a photos published in Don Wood's I Remember Pennsy book taken in the middle 1950's at Enola yard (across the river from Harrisburg) showing those assignment initials.

Add to you sources, this set of photo, I took at the Railroad Museum of PA (M1a/b 6755).  The day I took these pictures I was concentrating on steam powered appliances. It appeared that each appliance had a controlled steam power line , (from all those red handled valves above the boiler head), and a steam exhaust line that seemed to eventually end at a dump point bottom of smoke box.   Stoker feeder motor, air pumps, water pumps, generator, etc. 

Several of the exhaust steam pipes from appliances were combined/piped to the bottom of the smoke box.

Two conduits/pipes would indicate control wiring and power source feed wiring to a small distribution panel that was in the cab.   Foggy head says there were 3 or 4 fuses. in this box, engineer's side of cab.  I could be wrong and often.  Also note that the generator steam exhaust is piped to the side of the smoke stack.  Appliance steam exhaust must have been a significant safety issue, IMO.

Mike CT posted:

 

Two conduits/pipes would indicate control wiring and power source feed wiring to a small distribution panel that was in the cab.   Foggy head says there were 3 or 4 fuses. in this box, engineer's side of cab.  I could be wrong and often.  Also note that the generator steam exhaust is piped to the side of the smoke stack.  Appliance steam exhaust must have been a significant safety issue, IMO.

 

 

Remember that these locomotives were equipped with the elaborate PRR Cab Signal system, and part of all that stuff mounted over the Engineer's head, in that photo, are part of that system (note what looks like an 'acknowledger' box with the lever). Lots of extra electrical wiring and equipment boxes for such a system, over what a "normal" steam locomotive would have.

Yes,  there was a lot of wiring all over.   Note this side of the tender.

And the rear.  Decent conduit bending and assembly.   IMO.

And the radiophone ??

Keystoned Ed posted:

Larry - I believe the pipes on the smokebox (larger one on the other side) are associated with the feed water heater.  M1's did not have pipes in the locations the M1a's/ M1b did.  As far as assignment initials on the pilot beam - I'd go with PGH (Pittsburgh Div) on the left of the pilot facing the viewer and EA (East Altoona  engine house) on the right.  There are several M1a photos published in Don Wood's I Remember Pennsy book taken in the middle 1950's at Enola yard (across the river from Harrisburg) showing those assignment initials.

 

 

Thanks, Ed.  I will have to pick up that book.  I can't find that "feed water" pipe on PSC.  Actually, I ordered what I thought it was the right pipe, but it wasn't (PSH - 41339).  I'm not sure what I will do with bullet style marker lights.  That conversion makes me a bit more nervous for some reason.  Thanks for all of the replies.  

Great pics, Mike!  Thank you for your reply.  I will spend some time on that after work today.

Mike, yes that's the Trainphone receiver on the tender deck.