PS2 5 board question

They are the same.

3volts are the same too.  (There were some variations with the quillable whistle boards).

PS3 steam and diesel boards are different.

 

Dave,

Obviously different sound files and possibly different hardware to mount to frame.  The question is can I put a 5V diesel board in a 5V steam engine as a direct replacement just loading the correct sound file.

The answer is "maybe".

There were two different 5 volt boards:

• One was the standard 5 volt board, which was the same board for diesels and may steamers.
• The other was the 5 volt board that was out into subways, trollies and articulated steamers.

If your steamer isa non-articulated model, then you can swap in a diesel 5 volt board.

I suspect the FLASH board would work anyway, but obviously if you tried to go the other way, it wouldn't.

John,

Yes, the flash 5 volt board would work. However, that board disallows use of a DCS Custom Name for the engine.

I thought that the dealer loader would allow you to customize the name anyway, but I haven't actually tried it.

John,

Yes, that's correct.However, that's a permanent name, not a DCS Custom Name, which is done using the remote (or the app).

OK Barry, I'll buy that.  I knew you couldn't do a custom name in the subway board without the dealer loader, I presume the other uses of that board have the same restriction.

Thanks for the additional detail info.  In this case it is a non-articulated steam.  A related question is the steam engine with the 5V board seemed to have just quit working. I think the engine was going really slow and may have quit moving (binding) and shut down. Now no longer works. The engine is on a test track by itself and no longer do I hear the click when it gets the watchdog signal.  Other engines put on test track do fine so comfortable that TIU works fine. 

Does this mean board is dead or could it be the small 5V regulator mounted to frame?  This is a RK engine so don't want to spend much to fix.

The "click" you (should) hear is when you initially apply track voltage - not from the watchdog signal.  In other words, you should hear it even if applying track voltage from a conventional transformer (no TIU).

It's true if that 5V 3-terminal regulator went south, you would not hear the "click".  But the likelihood of that part failing is small.  In all likelihood another cause of no "click".  I suppose if you have it all opened up and can access the part I guess it's worth the 1 minute it would take to confirm you have rectified DC track voltage on the left terminal (over 20V if you have command voltage on the track), and 5V DC on the right terminal - both DC voltages measured relative to the center terminal or metal tab (which is NOT the same as the frame).  You can slide the connector housing to expose the 3 terminals for measurement while still maintaining connector contact.

The 5V board set is difficult to troubleshoot.  Verify the AC track voltage is reaching the board on the 7-pin connector on the smaller power-supply board; you should be able to measure track voltage between red and black wires (2 each).  Then look for anything obvious...leaking, bulging, deformed, charred components.  Aside from that, not sure it's worth going any further.  

 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Dave,

Obviously different sound files and possibly different hardware to mount to frame.  The question is can I put a 5V diesel board in a 5V steam engine as a direct replacement just loading the correct sound file.

The answer is "maybe".

There were two different 5 volt boards:

• One was the standard 5 volt board, which was the same board for diesels and may steamers.
• The other was the 5 volt board that was out into subways, trollies and articulated steamers.

If your steamer isa non-articulated model, then you can swap in a diesel 5 volt board.

Barry,

I was not aware of the 5v subway board.  I have never seen one.  Thanks for the information.

Dave

Dave, I got burned by that a few years ago, trying to get a subway going with a standard board.

John,

I learned when I tried to put a subway sound file in a non-subway engine, to make it do station stops. The result was subway sounds without any station stops.  

Yep, same problem I had.

Thanks Stan  You were correct that regulator was fine. I replaced the board set with a spare and all is fine now.  Don't think I am going to invest in any more repairs of 5V PS2 boards.  In fact, any future purchases of used MTH engines I will limit to at least the 3V PS2 or later unless the deal was so good that I could upgrade and still be a reasonable value.

Good call.  Reminds me of the Kenny Rogers tune The Gambler:

You got to know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
And know when to run.

I figure it's worth rolling the dice on the regulator since it doesn't take long to measure...and if it was the culprit you could be in back in business for $1 or so with no soldering required.  

 

Some of you guys need to read your service manual some more, you would be surprised what is in the book! G

Barry, why did the articulated 5 volt steamers need to use a subway board, and are the 3 volt boards and PS-3 boards different in articulated steamers?

Dave,

why did the articulated 5 volt steamers need to use a subway board, and are the 3 volt boards and PS-3 boards different in articulated steamers?

The PS2 subways and trolleys have station stops, and the articulated steamers have dual chuffing to accommodate two boilers. Add also those PS2 engines with operating pantographs to the list that use the board with the extra memory.

The articulated steamers use the standard 2MEG 3V board, at least installed several of them and they worked.

John,

The articulated steamers use the standard 2MEG 3V board, at least installed several of them and they worked.

That's interesting.

I know that the sound file will load, however, did you find that the chuffs were able to go in and out of sync? I'd always been told that standard  boards couldn't do that, but never actually tried it to see.

As an aside, early on, I loaded a "regular" engine with a subway sound file and found that, while it sounded like a subway, its  transit station stop program simply didn't work.

Barry, nobody's complained, so I guess the sounds were satisfactory.  I know the subway and the operating pantographs are a special case, I'm just hoping I don't have to deal with those.  Of course, now the PS32 board does have the chain files to support most of the environments.

The reason I asked is because I replaced a bad 5 volt Challenger board with a standard 5 volt and all seemed well, except you are correct, I did loose the dual boiler sound. That seems to be the only additional function the subway board gave it. 

You have me curious now, I'll have to check. 

2 different issues being discussed.  Memory size and flash code loaded.  For PS-2 5V which had limited memory to start, and flash codes loaded at the factory once.  No rewrite capability.  You had basic steam and diesel.  But anything requiring additional capability had there own specific flash loaded board.  This was the AE-0000004 flash board.  You had subway, articulate steam, pantographs.  When MTH made PS-2 3V which had more memory you had Subway, articulate steam and normal steam/diesel flash code all preloaded so that all you needed was the correct sound file.  But pantograph, quillable whistle, small smoke need there own flash code that could not fit.  So you had Flash boards AE-0000014 that MTH could load the specific flash code with a special fixture.  These can be rewritten, but require MTH to do it.  Not the sound file loader.  Hence swapping a generic PS-2 3V into a GG-1 will not give you operating pantos.  Going into a small switcher will put too much power to a small smoke unit and risk burning it up.  There were several other flash codes for unique engines like the Coors set, AEM lights etc.

Get to PS-32 and they got QW into the stock flash load also.  BUT removed trolley.  But the good news is you can load the specific flash code with the loader program.  So now you have Diesel or steam, you have Coors, Electric Panto, Subway/Trolley, etc...  Just need to load the correct flash.  Also, turbine which has a different sound since no chuff.  There are others too.  

PS-2 3V did have 2 memory sizes for sound files.  Early boards where 1MEG.  Later they had 2Meg memory which handled the larger Sound files which had more features and effects.  Sound File loads not related to flash code though.  You still needed the AE-14 Flash board with appropriate MTH loaded code to work.  I have a few left in stash for those unique engines that may not handle a PS-32 because of size restrictions.  Hence if you have a 1meg board and try to load a newer PS-2 3V diesel SF that is 1.2meg for example, it will not load.  You must have a 3V board with 2 meg memory.

PS-2 3V are now fully obsolete and you can not get them anymore.  G

George, where do I get the latest versions of all of the PS32 FLASH files?  Jason told me that the small smoke unit wasn't out yet, but if it is, I have a repair waiting on it.  I don't find them on the MTH site.

It is out for steam and diesel.  Contact Jason.  Or tell me which you need and I will send it.  G

I think I have the steam and diesel, but I wanted the ones for small smoke units in steam and diesel, and also the one for pantographs, those I don't have.  I did contact Jason, and I was disappointed in the lack of response.

Thank you GGG, for sharing your knowledge on the flash codes. I never realized there was a separate code for articulates. The Challenger was purchased at the last York show by a close friend, and when he tried it at home, it was dead. When I opened it up, I found the 7 pin plug was melted, which was caused by an eccentric being miss positioned and locking up a wheel set. The original board has two stickers on the relay shell. One says FLASH DSP, the other says, CASCADE. The board I dropped in was a AE1000035 which was one of two I purchased from you a while back. He purchased the engine to give his son as a Christmas gift and wanted the passenger sounds loaded in it, so I loaded the 5 volt grey Challenger sound file which is passenger and all worked well, other then not having the dual chuffing. Well he called the other day and told me when they ran it on Christmas morning, the sounds changed to freight. How could this be possible? We're both witnesses that heard the passenger sounds, because I demonstrated it for him on my layout, before I gave it back to him. It sat in its box for about a month til it was run on Christmas day. I told him it must be because of the big old haunted Victorian house he lives in. He's bringing it back over and now I think I'll search for a standard UP steam passenger sound file, with matching wheel diameters, to install. What do you think fried on the original board, from the high current draw, and could I get at it without separating the two boards?

Well, IMO, it would be impossible for the sounds to change to freight unless there's some magic involved!  

As far as fixing the old board, it's a pretty remote possibility, the 5V boards simply weren't made to be repaired!

I didn't previously realize that the 5V articulated required the FLASH board, that's new information.  I know that I loaded many articulated steamer sound files into the 3V board and they all sounded fine with the proper sound, so the thought never crossed my mind that the 5V boards would be different.  I guess I should have picked up on the fact that the articulated sound files were larger.

Thanks John. I'm thinking the cascade sticker indicates the way the chuff sounds cascade. Maybe GGG knows what the DSP stands for. The difficult road block in repairing those boards is the way their stacked. I often wanted to practice on a few of the bad 5 volt boards I have using SMD removal alloy to separate them from the top next to the relay. As far as the sound file changing, I'll find out more when he brings the engine back in. It could be because there wasn't enough room to fit the Challenger sound file into a standard board, although the loader program didn't indicate that.

Well, the FLASH DSP indicates that's the board with the additional memory.  I didn't realize the 5V board needed that for the articulated steamers, I knew that the pantographs required the extra memory.

Dave,

Well he called the other day and told me when they ran it on Christmas morning, the sounds changed to freight. How could this be possible?

It isn't possible without changing the sound file.

I suggest that you listen for yourself before you spend any time fixing an engine that isn't broken.  

FYI, DSP = Digital Sound Processor.

Digital Signal Processing.  Again, it is not the Sound File memory for the 5V, but the preloaded flash code memory.  So they did.   That is why originally, when you ordered boards you gave the part number and sound file required as a product number. 

The original 5V could have had one of those solid shorts on the PV side of the board.  That would cause a high amperage on the AC input.  When testing boards I use the Z-4000 and watch the current.  Some 5V just dead no draw.  Some draw a small current around .5amps but still dead, and other go up to 5-8amps depending on voltage applied.  If he had a dead short failure like that and did not realize it leaving power applied for some time, those input wires would melt.  Even seen the connector melted into a blob. 

John, I will send the files.  G

Man, many years ago, (2005?) I upgraded a R-K Challenger from whistle only to PS2, using the then-available upgrade kit.  Used a BigBoy sound file which was all that was then available. I do hear the chuffs going in and out of sync.

Incidentally, the articulated locos did not have 2 boilers.  They had one boiler and two engines.

RJR, your upgrade kit would have been a 3 volt board and the Big Boy file may have been an upgrade kit sound file, which could be why it was capable of the in and out sync chuffs.  I replaced the bad 5 volt board with another 5 volt board that didn't have the flash code for that feature.

Yes Barry, I can't wait til he gets it here so that I can witness this miracle myself. I won't try to do anything with it til I hear it myself.

Dave, I was addressing an issue discussed earlier in this thread whether a 3-volt PS2 board could have the in-&-out-of-sync sound.

Yes, the 3V board does it fine.  I just had one here, and I decided to do a test run.