PS3 Steam Upgrade Issues

@ScottM posted:

 

Concerning the issue with speed, I am suspicious of the tach strip and possibly the tach reader.  For the tach strip, I used the formula Dave Hikel provided, using the Premier UP 844 as the "PS2 engine" in the formula.  I found that the MTH 30 mm tape provided the correct segment width and spliced two tapes together to get the correct length.  However, I have yet to confirm the installed tape has 60 stripes as calculated per the formula.  

.....I do cycle the TIU and wait for the morse code signals before making a download attempt.

Any thoughts/insight would be appreciated!

 

Wow. I am surprised that it comes out to 60 stripes. I don't think I've ever installed that many stripes on any brand so far. I have a feeling the board thinks the engine is running faster than it is. It maybe ignoring some stripes too. That makes this slightly tougher to fix.

If you felt like experimenting, I'd cut that number in half and see what she runs like. You can adjust the number of stripes when you get close to the desired speed. I pace my installs against other stock engines to dial them in.

 I'd also wish to check with you on what exact distance you have the reader away from the flywheel?

The board makes those codes when it is resetting itself. After maybe two power cycles, it should be done. Is this board making the morse code sounds continuosly? (Every power up cycle)

I did not check to see if the morse code sounds after every power up cycle, just with the initial system power off/on.  After the last chain code download & power cycle/engine start-up, the whistle was still truncated. Moving forward there was no chuffing sound as expected (the smoke motor chuffs).

The 3rd Rail has a 38mm flywheel & 26:1 gear ratio versus 30mm & 32:1 for UP 844.  Drive wheel diameters are virtually identical.

The tach sensor gap is .030 (set with a feeler gauge).  A count of black & white stripes adds to 62 - 2 over the formula which is not good.

To help with managing wires, I used a 3 pin connector from the original 3rd Rail harness to tie in the tach reader.  The connection feels tight, but could this create the issue?

Also, I clearly have no problem with experimenting.  That's what this hobby is about!  

Thank you for the help.

from what i remember is there should be 24 stripes never more! depending what engine your putting the kit in the width of the stripes can be varied but not the number of stripes!!!

Alan

Alan,

24 black stripes total?

I think the 24 stripe total only applies to MTH engines. The sound files assume a particular MTH engine. The 3rd Rail engine has a much different gear ratio. To be honest I don't how you reconcile getting the speed right as well as the chuff count in this situation. Lots of trial and error????

Pete

Reload PS-32 steam flash.  Never use PS-3 flash in a PS-32 board.  You need to drive the adapter board for light bulb function and only PS-32 flash type codes do that.

Some PS-2 sound files have an incompatibility with later PS-32 code.  There is a service bulletin, and you need to install an earlier engine flash code version to get chuff back if you want that sound file, or us a compatible 3V file.  Usually the newer 3V work, or use a PS-3 sound file (only SF).  Or call MTH and have the Sound engineer redo the SF you want to use to be compatible. 

As far as Speed control, you need less stripes not more to speed up a 3rd rail.  Depending on model, I have ditched that large flywheel and installed a smaller MTH flywheel from a pittman.  Either way you need less stripes on the FW to trick the speed control into seeing the motor not turning enough to add more voltage to the motor.  Typical Williams and 3rd rail gear ratios are too low.  40 plus revolutions to get one wheel turn, versus 20 something on an MTH engine.  G

Thanks G!

Does the PS32 chain file need to be reloaded when the sound file is changed or is it one and done?

I take I need to experiment until I get the right PS2 sound file. 

Can PS3 sound files be used in steam?

Regarding a flywheel change, not sure there is enough clearance to the engine bulkhead. 

If you've loaded the proper PS32 chain files for the type of engine (steam or diesel/electric) and the size smoke unit (large, small), it's once and done.  You can load sound files all day and not load the chain files again.

Note the procedure for loading chain files, you really need a couple of power cycles to get the boards mine right after loading a new chain file set.

PS/3 sound files will work with the PS32 chain files, but you may get unexpected results at times, depending on the specific PS/3 sound file.  I've done it a few times, one of the benefits is you get the quilling whistle if the PS/3 file supports it.  Also, frequently the whistle/horn and chuff/prime mover sounds have changed, you may like the PS/3 set better than the earlier PS/2 set.

About 6 weeks ago I installed a PS3 steam kit in a 3rd Rail CB&Q Hudson for a friend. I ended up reusing the tach stripes that were on the flywheel from the TAS TMCC setup that was on their previously. I never counted the stripes but the locomotive runs great. It's indicated speed is about 12% off because of the difference in gearing but it'll still run plenty fast. I used the sound file from a PS3 Milwaukee Road Hudson and added the station stop announcements from a Railking CB&Q Hudson using the ADPCM program.

Speaking of Santa Fe Northerns I just put a PS3 kit in a Premier 2900 class Northern. I used the PS3 sound file for a 2900 class Northern but added the correct 6 chime whistle from the premier ATSF Blue Goose/Hudson file (again using the ADPCM program). I can send you the sound file I created if you'd like.

@Lou1985 posted:

..... It's indicated speed is about 12% off because of the difference in gearing but it'll still run plenty fast. 

 

 

For a test if you go back in there, put small pieces of black tape over the white, in places spaced out until the engine is closer to the correct speed. That's if you don't wish to use a sharpie and color them in. That reduces the number of stripes. I believe techs will tell you that the stripes should all be evenly spaced?

 It may not be the preferred method. I have done it to dial in the number of stripes needed.

@Engineer-Joe posted:

For a test if you go back in there, put small pieces of black tape over the white, in places spaced out until the engine is closer to the correct speed. That's if you don't wish to use a sharpie and color them in. That reduces the number of stripes. I believe techs will tell you that the stripes should all be evenly spaced?

 It may not be the preferred method. I have done it to dial in the number of stripes needed.

The guy is happy and won't double head it so I'm going to leave it alone. I can always change the stripes later on if need be. 

yes Scott 24 stripes! on mth engines

@Engineer-Joe posted:

I believe techs will tell you that the stripes should all be evenly spaced?

Truthfully Joe, I doubt it will make any difference if they're evenly spaced.  As long as you don't go crazy with the blanking them out and don't do a bunch together, I suspect you'll never notice.

Very easy for me to try!

@Lou1985 posted:

Speaking of Santa Fe Northerns I just put a PS3 kit in a Premier 2900 class Northern. I used the PS3 sound file for a 2900 class Northern but added the correct 6 chime whistle from the premier ATSF Blue Goose/Hudson file (again using the ADPCM program). I can send you the sound file I created if you'd like.

 

Could I trouble you to send this file to me? I've been meaning to change the whistle in my Northern for awhile.

Thanks,

Bryce

@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:

Could I trouble you to send this file to me? I've been meaning to change the whistle in my Northern for awhile.

Thanks,

Bryce

Sure. I'll send it tonight to your profile email.

@ScottM posted:

The 3rd Rail has a 38mm flywheel & 26:1 gear ratio versus 30mm & 32:1 for UP 844.  Drive wheel diameters are virtually identical.

 

Something seems a little off here... If you don't mind, what's the MTH product number for the UP 844 sound file you're using?  The info I have suggests that both of these locos should be geared around 18:1.  (I'm assuming that your 3rd Rail 3751 has the new-style belt and pulley quiet drive.)

Also, I wouldn't change your flywheel.  A larger diameter is always better.  The MTH flywheels are tiny; some of them are so small that they are ineffective.  It should be easy to print a custom label with wider stripes.  And there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to get your Northern to run at an accurate indicated speed.

As far as the gear ratios, there are two schools of thought on that...  For a tall-drivered Northern, 40:1 is ok, 36:1 is ideal, and anything less than about 20:1 is faster than it needs to be!  Please provide the info, and we'll try to advise you further.

https://ogrforum.com/...8#149239177292913978

I don't have the MTH catalog number, but it was the early PS2 version of the engine (5v board since converted to 3v).

My plan is to do the following:

Black-out half of the white stripes - the tape is going to be replaced regardless and this will provide a total of 32 segments versus the current 62.

Power up the engine multiple times per GRJ's comment. Hopefully this resolves any issues with the chain file.

Install the sound file provided by Lou.  My other hobby is pinball and there exists software to manipulate music files in a machine's code.  It's time consuming yet rewarding, so Lou's efforts are much appreciated.

Not hard work, just need the time to get it done.

@ScottM the link you posted just takes me right back to this same thread.

I'm 99% sure the gear ratios you quoted aren't correct.  Sometimes a flywheel has two set screws.  So if you're using those to count turns, you will end up with double the actual value.  Does your 3rd Rail loco have the new style belt-and-pulley "quiet drive" system?  If so, I'm pretty sure the standard ratio for quiet drive, at least on later projects, was 18.1:1.  It's possible to change pulleys but I'm probably one of the few who's actually done it.  The UP loco 20-3044 circa Y2K is definitely not 32:1; it should also be around 18:1. 

If I'm right, your upgrade results should be similar to Lou's Hudson.  With a custom tape (24 wide stripes), your loco should run very well, maybe 3% - 6% slower than the indicated MPH on the remote.

I placed a black mark on the flywheel and one on a drive wheel.  I then counted the number of flywheel turns needed to complete one turn of the drive wheel. Both had a corresponding match mark to ensure accuracy.  

In that case may I ask, does your 3rd Rail loco have belt drive?  And do you also have the Premier 844 in hand?  If not, how did you determine that the gear ratio is 32:1?

No offense intended, and if I'm wrong I will be the first one to apologize!  But others are going to read this and attempt the same thing, so if there's misinformation here I would like to clear it up.  I've been studying these trains for years and there's just no way an MTH Premier steam from that era is geared lower (slower) than 3rd Rail.

If your Third Rail loco is indeed 26:1 and the MTH FEF 844 is 18:1, you could make a custom label with 16 black stripes and 16 white ones.  Each stripe would have to be 0.147" wide to wrap your 38mm flywheel.  The sensor would be reading fewer stripes per rotation than expected by the programming in the sound file.  Therefore it would force the motor to turn faster (higher RPM) and you would end up at the correct scale mph.

The 3rd Rail is belt drive & I have no problem double checking the 844.

I've never seen an MTH steamer with a gear ratio as high as 32:1.  I eagerly await the data as well.

I stand corrected,  the UP ratio is about 16:1. The 3751 is correct.

In that case, make your label with 15 black and 15 white stripes, each 0.1567" wide.  It will wrap the 38mm flywheel.  If you use the sound file from the Premier FEF and the driving wheels are the same size on both locos, actual scale speed should match what's on the DCS remote.

If you're still getting a small error and you want it to be exact, you would have to double-check your gear ratios (sometimes there's slack in the gear train, or they use an uneven number like 16.5:1 which is only apparent if you count two full revolutions).  Also, measure the rubber-tired wheels with a caliper.  Even factory MTH locos are sometimes a couple of MPH apart from each other, not a big deal.  Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for your follow-up Ted.  Not sure how I counted one thing and then wrote another!

Tonight I cycled the power - no morse code.  I then downloaded the sound file Lou provided which he demonstrated works.  No improvement with the truncated whistle & no chuff.  I then reloaded the PS32 steam chain file (vintage 2018?) followed by three power cycles, again, no change in the whistle or chuff. 

Is there a more up to date chain file that should be used?

Regarding speed control, coloring in every other white strip improved the situation.  Dialing in the speed with the proper tach strip will occur after the sound is fixed. 

You can get the updated steam PS32 chain file here: https://mthtrains.com/proto-so...kit-consumer-package

You'll want the "O Gauge Steam with Standard Smoke Unit" chain file.

There is a documented issue with some sound files converted from 5V files and the newer chain files.  The solution for the PS32 board is to load the older chain file, engine-hdr-3409.srec.  This should restore the chuff.  I've attached that file to this post.

If it doesn't help, just reload the proper PS32 chain file set again.

engine-hdr-3409.zip

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There is a documented issue with some sound files converted from 5V files and the newer chain files.  The solution for the PS32 board is to load the older chain file, engine-hdr-3409.srec.  This should restore the chuff.  I've attached that file to this post.

If it doesn't help, just reload the proper PS32 chain file set again.

engine-hdr-3409.zip

He's using a PS3 sound file I emailed him, so he'll want the standard/newer PS32 steam chain file. It's the same one I used in my ATSF Northern with a PS32 board.

It sounds like he needs to reload the chain file and sound file just to make sure something didn't get corrupted. 

Note that one of the links to those "new" PS32 chain files is corrupt.  Specifically, the O Gauge Steam with a Standard Smoke Unit and Steam Turbine Smoke.

Reload the chain file. Let the DCS loader finish. It will power cycle the TIU when it's done. The locomotive will come on and make sounds. Shut the power off. The locomotive will shut down and play a series of beeps. Wait till the beeps are done. 30 seconds later turn the power back on. You'll get some more beeps then the locomotive will start up. 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note that one of the links to those "new" PS32 chain files is corrupt.  Specifically, the O Gauge Steam with a Standard Smoke Unit and Steam Turbine Smoke.

Well that sucks. I have the most current "O Gauge Steam with Standard Smoke Unit" chain file saved to my computer if he needs it.

The sound works perfectly now.  I first downloaded the "standard smoke unit" chain file and that by itself did not correct the either the chuff or the whistle (2 attempts were made).  I then downloaded the "engine-hdr-3409.srec" and that apparently fixed any corrupt files that I may have created.  Thanks Lou & John for your help!

Next on the list is to dial in the tach tape.  That should go much smoother now that I have the correct ratio in hand 

It takes time, but we eventually get to the root of the issue.

Awesome. Good luck dialing the tach tape in .