PS3 Steam Upgrade Kit

Tom,

Does anyone know if this is a common problem with Steam PS3 Upgrade Kits or could it be a defective PS3 upgrade board?

It could be a technician problem.

I hope you didn't pay for this botched job.  Is the tech a MTH certified technician?  If so MTH should honor warranty, if not you may be SOL.

superwarp1 posted:

I hope you didn't pay for this botched job.  Is the tech a MTH certified technician?  If so MTH should honor warranty, if not you may be SOL.

Apparently, there are many different levels of MTH certification.   According to MTH, the hobby store is an authorized repair center.  But, they are not certified to perform DCS upgrades, meaning that any follow up warranty work would need to be done by them.  And, yes I did pay for the work using a credit card.  Trying to do some due diligence before I speak to the technician.  

Tom Jasper posted:

superwarp1 posted:

I hope you didn't pay for this botched job.  Is the tech a MTH certified technician?  If so MTH should honor warranty, if not you may be SOL.

Apparently, there are many different levels of MTH certification.   According to MTH, the hobby store is an authorized repair center.  But, they are not certified to perform DCS upgrades, meaning that any follow up warranty work would need to be done by them.  And, yes I did pay for the work using a credit card.  Trying to do some due diligence before I speak to the technician.  

Good luck, I feel your pain. 

Tom Jasper posted:

After receiving and testing the loco, I noticed that yes when power is applied to the track the headlight and marker lights are on as well as the cabin light.  And, when the loco is placed into reverse the tender backup light does not come on.  Does anyone know if this is a common problem with Steam PS3 Upgrade Kits or could it be a defective PS3 upgrade board?

That sounds like total BS!  I've installed a few of these, and the headlights always worked properly.  The marker lights are probably wired to track power as there is only one lighting feed from the tender to the locomotive in the 10-pin tether.  If you opt for a front coupler, there is an option to swap the headlight control for the front coupler, but I suspect your M1a doesn't have a front coupler. 

Here's the diagram of the locomotive wiring, I clearly see a headlight provision, and I've actually used it.

There is provisions for the tender reverse light and markers as well, here's the tender wiring.

Time to go back and talk to someone that knows what they're talking about!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Tom Jasper posted:

After receiving and testing the loco, I noticed that yes when power is applied to the track the headlight and marker lights are on as well as the cabin light.  And, when the loco is placed into reverse the tender backup light does not come on.  Does anyone know if this is a common problem with Steam PS3 Upgrade Kits or could it be a defective PS3 upgrade board?

That sounds like total BS!  I've installed a few of these, and the headlights always worked properly.  The marker lights are probably wired to track power as there is only one lighting feed from the tender to the locomotive in the 10-pin tether.  If you opt for a front coupler, there is an option to swap the headlight control for the front coupler, but I suspect your M1a doesn't have a front coupler. 

Here's the diagram of the locomotive wiring, I clearly see a headlight provision, and I've actually used it.

There is provisions for the tender reverse light and markers as well, here's the tender wiring.

Time to go back and talk to someone that knows what they're talking about!

John - thanks for your feedback.   From my understanding of the issue that the technician described, is that when all of the harnesses were connected (including the headlight), the digital load to the PS3 board would not provide power to the headlight and marker lights.  I need to follow up to get some additional clarification, but the technician only works on Friday and Saturday, so I have to wait a few days.  My best guess at this point is that the software load specific to the PRR M1b is not fully compatible with the PS3.  This raises the question in my mind, why not load software from a different PS3 loco that is similar to the M1b.  I'd really like to get to the bottom of this.  Tom

BULLCRAP!  I don't have any more to say on that topic!  It's not the sound file that determines the power to the headlight or marker light.

"After waiting several months in the queue,"

That line right there threw up red flags!!

Continued reading and subject went downhill fast. 

That is automatic that the lights will work if things are done right.  Those boards are all good.  I have done many PS3 upgrades and what he is telling you is exactly what John told you it is.  Sounds to me like he had the wrong plugs together. Power to the markers comes from the mux as did your headlight before.    If he knew his way around, he would have left the headlight on the mux if he damaged your board.  As you know, your headlight worked before.

John, I would be willing to guess he did not use the proper chain files for the 3/2 board.  I have seen some horror shows done by people who state they know what they are doing.  The PS-2/3 upgrade kits are well designed.  Like any other job, do it one time and do it right.

Tom, if your guy is an MTH Tech, he should remove the board and put it in his test fixture and power it up.  This way he can determine if the board is the issue or his wiring.  MTH locomotives have either a board problem or a chassis issue.  Anytime I get something that is questionable, I pull the board and go right for my test fixture.  I had a friend yell at me at a school stating we could try this and that.  I want immediate direction on where to go next.  If your board stands tall then you need to hunt down the chassis issue.  By doing this you save time and are more directed towards the problem.  Two years ago I had a guy bring me an upgrade he did to check out.  Both front and rear lights did not work.  It came down to hit the light button on the remote.  Somehow he hit it and did not know about resets.

Tom, to do this job to go to PS-3, you did not need an upgrade kit.  All you needed was a PS-3/2 board in the tender and a 4ohm speaker.  Most early PS-2 Premier had the 5 V boards in the engine.  The M-1 has the board in the tender.  I have that engine and put in a 3/2 board.  Same end result, same exact board.  Only one difference is you would have paid far less money.  BTW, that job took about 25 minutes. 

One last point, MTH markers are wired to the mux board and not the track power.

Tom,  2 things.  First I have had boards that are defective and light output will not work.  The board has a test all package, and I load sound files on the board tester so I can see that everything works before putting it into the engine.

2nd, if the tech loaded a PS-3 sound file AND the PS-3 Chain file, than the lights will not work.  The PS-32 Steam Chain File needs to stay in the board.  This file looks at the Sound file to drive lights.  A REAL PS-3 Steam has a boiler board and tender board, so the tender board tells the boiler board what lights to operate.  A PS-32 Steam upgrade is a PS-3 diesel board at the base, there is no boiler board to communicate with.  So the Engine lighting does not work, despite that the tender lights might.

Your engine probably had a MUX set up so if he gutted that I would be ****ed. (mad) I am not sure this is MTH responsibility.  I have had engines come in where techs did these *******ized (messed up) upgrades, and gut all the needed PS-2 MUX boards and harness.  You lose all but HL capability when they do that.  

What he should have done is just used the PS-32 board with appropriate connectors and the original or upgrade 3V SF.  If he changed harnesses that is also part of the problem as a MUX engine is wired different.  G

What he said.  

I do always load the sound file on my tester first and verify all the functions, that's always a good idea. 

I put a replacement PS32 board into a steamer with a blown 5V board, I just dropped it in replacing the old board.  As Marty said, it was WAY easier than redoing the whole installation!

Don't mean to hijack the thread but I have several PS2 3v engines.  If they ever crap out or I decide to upgrade for better/newer sounds.   Sticking a PS 2/3 board in a PS2 3v is a straight plug n play?   I haven't had the pleasure of doing steam upgrades as of yet.

Are these board testers available to the general public or only to those who have attended the MTH school? If so, will the latest tester work on all versions of PS2 and PS3 or specific for type.

Pete

George, this engine does come with a mux board.  The person doing the work should have left this in like stated.  You need this for the markers.   It is up to the owner if he wants the headlight always on or have the ability to shut it off with the DCS remote.  I have never had any reason to have the ability to turn on/off a headlight.

Gary, yes it is.  You can get the board with 3v or 5v connectors.  You already have the correct speaker if your board is a 3v board.  I am a huge fan of the PS3/2 board system.  Like George stated, if the tech got rid of the mux, Tom is screwed.  If the mux was in place, the tech had an out to make the headlight work again.

Is this guy a real MTH  tech.  Many pose as being a tech that are not. 

I feel the MTH PS3/2 board is a great system.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

 

"Tom, to do this job to go to PS-3, you did not need an upgrade kit.  All you needed was a PS-3/2 board in the tender and a 4ohm speaker.  Most early PS-2 Premier had the 5 V boards in the engine.  The M-1 has the board in the tender.  I have that engine and put in a 3/2 board.  Same end result, same exact board.  Only one difference is you would have paid far less money.  BTW, that job took about 25 minutes. "

Marty,

Thanks for your reply.  I am learning through forum comments, but still have much to learn.  I am not familiar with the "the PS-3/2 board" ... the kit I purchased at the MTH authorized service center is 50-1911 ($200).  Is there an MTH part number for the 3/2 board?  

Another question if I may.  After receiving the loco back via UPS,  I noticed that the headlight was canted upward with the wire harness bundle appearing at the front of the loco between the light and boiler.  I pressed the light down and it seems okay now.  Do you know if the light should have been attached to the boiler with interior screws or some other means?

BTW, nice picture of the M1b on the turn table. 

Thanks again,

Tom

There are plug compatible PS32 boards with 3V connectors and 5V connectors.  I believe they're only sold to techs unless something has changed.

G - thanks for taking the time to reply ... I believe that you have nailed the problem.

If you have time, I would appreciate clarification on your comments as I am considering doing the next upgrade job myself.

"if the tech loaded a PS-3 sound file AND the PS-3 Chain file, than the lights will not work.  The PS-32 Steam Chain File needs to stay in the board.  This file looks at the Sound file to drive lights.  A REAL PS-3 Steam has a boiler board and tender board, so the tender board tells the boiler board what lights to operate.  A PS-32 Steam upgrade is a PS-3 diesel board at the base, there is no boiler board to communicate with.  So the Engine lighting does not work, despite that the tender lights might."

Is the PS-32 Chain File pre-installed at the factory?  And, this file must remain because there is no boiler board to communicate with?  Can the PS-32 Steam Chain File be reloaded using the MTH Loader app?

"Your engine probably had a MUX set up so if he gutted that .."

I have attached two pictures of what has been gutted from the loco.  I am not familiar enough with the original system to know if more has been removed than required.   Does it look okay to you?

"What he should have done is just used the PS-32 board with appropriate connectors and the original or upgrade 3V SF."

Several other members have suggested this.  Is the PS-32 board available separately?  I wasn't able to find it on the MTH website.

Thanks again for your insight and help,

Tom

Tom, if he just installed a PS3/2 board and correct speaker, you would have saved a ton of money and time.  I am a huge fan of the PS3/2 boards over the stock production tender board and boiler board that George mentioned.   Any future upgrades you would do better off to contact George or John.

Tom Jasper posted:

 

G - thanks for taking the time to reply ... I believe that you have nailed the problem.

If you have time, I would appreciate clarification on your comments as I am considering doing the next upgrade job myself.

"if the tech loaded a PS-3 sound file AND the PS-3 Chain file, than the lights will not work.  The PS-32 Steam Chain File needs to stay in the board.  This file looks at the Sound file to drive lights.  A REAL PS-3 Steam has a boiler board and tender board, so the tender board tells the boiler board what lights to operate.  A PS-32 Steam upgrade is a PS-3 diesel board at the base, there is no boiler board to communicate with.  So the Engine lighting does not work, despite that the tender lights might."

Is the PS-32 Chain File pre-installed at the factory?  And, this file must remain because there is no boiler board to communicate with?  Can the PS-32 Steam Chain File be reloaded using the MTH Loader app?

"Your engine probably had a MUX set up so if he gutted that .."

I have attached two pictures of what has been gutted from the loco.  I am not familiar enough with the original system to know if more has been removed than required.   Does it look okay to you?

"What he should have done is just used the PS-32 board with appropriate connectors and the original or upgrade 3V SF."

Several other members have suggested this.  Is the PS-32 board available separately?  I wasn't able to find it on the MTH website.

Thanks again for your insight and help,

Tom

 

Yes the PS-32 Steam upgrade boards come with the correct steam flash code loaded.  It is also suppose to be on the web though I have not checked.   Looks right for the engine, but what did he do in the tender?  the HL wire from board goes to tender mux.  Than communicates with the engine mux via the what would have been the hl wire.  If he left mux in tender that is the problem, no hl signal to engine, just a Mux signal.  G

I have an older J class steam.  5 volt PS2.  if that board goes, I can just swap out the Board with one of the PS2/3 boards?  board is inside of engine.  speaker and battery in tender.  

thanks

Chris

Chris,  Yes and No.  For Some engines the PS-32 board may not fit back in the engine.  So your stuck doing a full upgrade.  But usually that is the RK engines so not much loss.   Remember you still need to change the speaker to a 4 ohm.   G

George, somewhere I had a list of what engines had the boards in the engine.  It was given to me by a tech that is long gone.  After the big E this week I will try to dig it out.  These were early 5V.   I would suggest to anyone thinking about a PS-32 board or an upgrade to run it by one of the guys here on the forum that do many and get some advice on what is the best way to go.  Like George stated, some PS-32 boards are not always a fit.

I've had a couple that I had to extend some wires to get everything to plug in, even if the PS32 board stack fit into the locomotive.  It was a bit easier to fit the 3V board with the 5V connectors in many cases.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've had a couple that I had to extend some wires to get everything to plug in, even if the PS32 board stack fit into the locomotive.  It was a bit easier to fit the 3V board with the 5V connectors in many cases.

John,

Can anyone purchase a PS32 board from MTH or must one be an MTH authorized service center?

Thanks,

Tom

Last time I checked you had to be an ASC, I'm not sure if that's changed recently.  Obviously, I don't have to jump that hurdle.

Excuse my naivete .... if the original PS2 board goes bad, can the PS23 board be used to fix/upgrade the loco (i.e.; the PS23 board replaces the PS2 board)?  Or does the PS23 board work in conjunction with the original PS2 board?  thanks, Tom

If you have a PS-2 5V, you replace it with a PS-3/2 board and 4 ohm speaker.  That board will have black connectors for the 5 volt plugs.  If you have a PS-2 with a 3 V board, same deal except the top board will have white connectors to match the plugs on the 3 V board.   Same 4 ohm speaker.

Before the PS-3/2 boards, when any of my 5V boards would die I would replace the 5 V board with a 3 V board set and a 4 ohm speaker.  All that was needed was to pull the black connectors off the 5 V board and install them on the 3 V board after removing the white connectors.  Many an engine got a new lease on life.  Both the 5V and 3V boards had the same output on each pin so it was a slam dunk.   I have many 3 V boards that George rebuilt and they are all working perfect.  Anytime anyone I know has bad boards, I get them and send them to George.  Not everyone has a GGG they can send boards to.  

I

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

If you have a PS-2 5V, you replace it with a PS-3/2 board and 4 ohm speaker.  That board will have black connectors for the 5 volt plugs.  If you have a PS-2 with a 3 V board, same deal except the top board will have white connectors to match the plugs on the 3 V board.   Same 4 ohm speaker.

Before the PS-3/2 boards, when any of my 5V boards would die I would replace the 5 V board with a 3 V board set and a 4 ohm speaker.  All that was needed was to pull the black connectors off the 5 V board and install them on the 3 V board after removing the white connectors.  Many an engine got a new lease on life.  Both the 5V and 3V boards had the same output on each pin so it was a slam dunk.   I have many 3 V boards that George rebuilt and they are all working perfect.  Anytime anyone I know has bad boards, I get them and send them to George.  Not everyone has a GGG they can send boards to.  

I

Thanks Marty.  Next time I will contact George.  

Thanks to you and other forum members, I am now prepared to have a conversation with the technician that did the work.  Tom

Good luck Tom.  Let it us know how it turns out.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Not everyone has a GGG they can send boards to.  

 

Everybody here can, right?

Just to complete this thread ... I spoke with the technician that had upgraded my steamer.  I went through a series of questions based on the valuable feedback from members of this forum.  And, we both concluded that he mistakenly updated the chain file to PS3.  This explains why the loco worked fine with the factory installed sound and chain files.  But, when both files were replaced, the light stopped working.

The store offered to pay for return shipping and rework the loco on a priority basis. 

This forum is fantastic!

Tom Jasper

Nice that you have a solution, glad it's working out.

I followed along, and am glad you got a solution to the problem Tom!!

It does sound like the train shop is taking care of things as they should. Many would just try to weasel out of doing anything these days. Sounds like a good honest shop that wants to do the right thing. Also with all the different electronics packages out there that these techs work on I can certainly see how mistakes could easily happen. That's really a lot to keep straight for anyone. Glad you got things resolved.

UPDATE.  I am extremely pleased with the hobby shop that corrected the issue with the headlight and tender backup light, but a small albeit acceptable deviation from normal operation remains.  The marker and interior cab lights are on whenever power is applied to the track.  Can someone please explain why this is occurring and is there anything that I may be able to do via programming, etc to change this?   I really like the people at the hobby shop and if they may have made an installation mistake, I would like to help them understand for the next job.  thanks,  Tom

As was previously mentioned, what should have happened is the existing wiring should have been left alone and you'd have had all the proper controls using the MUX board.  I suspect that isn't what happened, so now you're stuck with putting a band-aid on the issue.

The steam upgrade kit only has one control for lights, that's the one that's working the headlight if there's no mux board remaining.  I'm sure you can't "program" the other lights, but those lights could probably be wired to run from the headlight circuit and go on and off with the headlight.  Hard to say how they powered them without seeing the engine.

John - thanks for your reply.  Tom

Doesn't sound like they put the mux back in the engine, just wired the headlight up.  G

Yep, the mystery is why not just use the PS32 board and drop it into the tender and leave everything else along as you previously stated.  Once they ripped it all out, it was downhill from there.