puzzling problems in programming Lionel Legacy Engines

To test the engines, just take a piece of track separate from your layout, hookup power and the base and then place engine on track and see if you can program it that way.

As long as you are in Program mode, you should get the horn blast when you program the engine number.   First step is always to program an engine number.  If that does not work, then there is an issue that needs to be solved first.

The modules are convenient but not required for anything as you can manually enter all the same info.

First eliminate your track and wiring.  Then go from there.  Let us know what happens.

Where is the Legacy Base plugged in?  Directly to the wall or a power strip?  If a power strip does it have surge protection?  If so this could be your problem.  Remove it from the power strip and plug it directly into a wall outlet.

If directly to an outlet, is it properly grounded?  Legacy relies on a good ground to work in tandem with the track signal.

Thanks Sean, I've checked out the wiring several times but there definitely a problem. I thought I was making progress with the two engines that had orange modules but today, one doesn't run and the other runs only slowly. Neither of them blew the horn or flashed the lights when they were programed. I will try hooking up a single track.

I have all four of the Power Masters hooked directly into the grounded outlets. My contractor friend put the two 20 amp circuits in and I had him check the grounding last weekend. It is grounded.

Thanks for your thought,

Gary

I have something similar right now, which is definitely a signal/ground plane issue. Try putting your hand over an engine that is giving you problems while at the same time entering a command and see if it responds. Also look for the tell tale sign of the engine’s headlight flickering, which happens when it is not receiving the signal properly. There are numerous threads about ways to deal with this under the “ground plane” heading.

I’ve learned that signal interference can come from a variety of sources that may be nothing directly to do with your home circuit.

@diarmot posted:

Thanks Sean, I've checked out the wiring several times but there definitely a problem. I thought I was making progress with the two engines that had orange modules but today, one doesn't run and the other runs only slowly. Neither of them blew the horn or flashed the lights when they were programed. I will try hooking up a single track.

It's not the PowerMasters that are at issue.  Your Legacy base/controller (Base-2/Cab-2) is likely to be the source of the problem.

The power brick that's powering the Base-2 must be plugged into a properly grounded outlet.  And, you need to make sure that you're not using a substitute brick.  It must have all three pins going into the outlet.

@Hancock52 is right on the money here.  If the headlight is flickering the engine is not receiving a strong enough signal to operate properly.  There are several possible causes for a flickering light, but a brick that's not plugged into a grounded outlet is the number one.  There could be other interference sources but if your layout consists of simple loops they shouldn't matter.

Mike

Good advice from everyone and as others have said:

1. Make sure you are using the original wall wart that came with the Legacy base to power it and not a generic substitute and make sure it is plugged directly into a grounded outlet and not a strip.

2. Simply things and get a separate straight piece of track maybe 20"-30" long and connect the Legacy one-wire to it and a single AC power source capable of 18v and nothing else. Put the offending engine on that track (power up the Legacy base and remote before turning power on) and go through the program sequence and see if it runs properly. If so, the Legacy system and engine are fine and your problem lies elsewhere in your wiring/track/power configuration.

My friend and I have encountered another issue with new legacy engines not always responding to the legacy remote in some locations on our club's modular layout. I have a Vision Line T&NO GS-1 and my friend has a WM EM-1 Yellowstone. While running they both would not respond while in the yard. This is a known issue we have with finding MTH DCS engines but it has never happened with TMCC / Legacy engines. These two engines are some of the latest that Lionel has made. Anyone have any thoughts on what is going on would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Hi Mello, Thanks for your reply. I sent the Legacy base and Cab 2 to Lionel, was returned as having no problems.

The power brick is new and is plugged, by it's three pronged plug directly into a well-grounded outlet, checked by my contractor friend last weekend, will check on the flickering light symptom, although when the engines don't respond I get nothing when I attempt to program them, no lights, no horn and the switches don't light up. The only two engines that respond are ones that I programed with orange modules. Although, I have attempted to program all of them  at t he same spot and same loop as I do with the ones that I self program. Earlier, I ran a plugged in extension cord along this same segment of track with no result.

Also, thanks to Hancock52, Richie C and Texas Eagle 77, I will explore your ideas, regarding grounding/signal problems this weekend.  I am glad to be getting some expert advise. I have to say the Lionel staff has gone all out to help. Twice I was on the phone with them for more than 30 minutes and other times for 10 to 20 minutes, as they checked out the problem or moved me up the hierarchy, at one point the "chief technician expressed' his or her opinion thru the individual I was talking to. If was one of them that suggested this site.

Thanks,

Gary

Hi Sean,

I took a piece of pre Fastrack, hooked it to a powermaster and placed one of the engines that are responding on it. The lights came and it was ready to go. I took one of the newer, non-responsive engines and attempted to program it. I could never get a response as the track never powered up. BTW the area on layout where I am testing theses engines is about 6 feet away from the base with no obstruction between and none of the track is elevated or under elevated track, The two earlier Legacy engines run all the way around one of the inner loops, which measures approximately 13.5 feet by 7.5 feet, without any problems.

BTW one of new Legacy Engines (from earlier this year) seemed to program ok initially then started acting erratically and then stopped responding. Since it was under warranty, I sent it back to Lionel and they returned it saying it find no problems? This led me to think I was using the wrong technique in programming them. When I called Lionel tech support they ran me through the programing process while they were online and still couldn't get engine programed (again one of the new Legacy engines with Bluetooth and that Bluetooth switch was on and then tried it while it was with no change).

Thanks for your suggestion.

Gary

@diarmot posted:

Hi Sean,

I took a piece of pre Fastrack, hooked it to a powermaster and placed one of the engines that are responding on it. The lights came and it was ready to go. I took one of the newer, non-responsive engines and attempted to program it. I could never get a response as the track never powered up.

Why would the track not power up for the second engine? We probably need to see how you have this wired. If the track powers up for the first engine it should for the second.

Curious if you have tried to run these in conventional with the base unplugged.

@BobbyD posted:

Why would the track not power up for the second engine? We probably need to see how you have this wired. If the track powers up for the first engine it should for the second.

Just a thought.  If the second engine was shorted dead then the track wouldn't power up when it was placed on it.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Just a thought.  If the second engine was shorted dead then the track wouldn't power up when it was placed on it.

Mike

I though about that, expect the Lionel equipment displays something to tell you there is a short.

@diarmot posted:

"I recently made my first attempt at building a layout."

Any updates?

I haven't had much time recently to work on what I hope will someday be functioning layout. However, I did set up a separate track with a transformer. The Legacy GP 7 lit up and responded as it has on the Legacy layout. The newer Legacy F7 that initially worked erratically on the Legacy track and setup, didn't even light up. It did work perhaps 2-3 times before it abruptly wouldn't respond, I can't think of anything that might have shorted it out but it appears dead. I ran a couple of other 5-7 year old Legacy engines, one lit up but didn't run  , however it also had responded erratically on the Legacy layout. The other, a GP 9 had responded to programing, lit up but would not run on the Legacy layout. It did the same on the transformer track. I had not run either of these engines before. I was waiting to set up an actual layout and had given up on the Christmas Tree tracks.

I now have two Legacy engines that will run on the layout, one that will program and light up but not run, one that lights up, has railsounds but won't run on either Legacy or by transformer. I may be able to send the F7 back to Lionel even though it is a bit out of warranty but has never been run till now. It looks like the two that are more than 5 years old will have to go to certified service center. However, I think there is something amiss with the layout. I have sent the base and handheld back Lionel and was returned with no problems. Initially I tried running a new Legacy engine and it ran erratically and finally not at all. I sent that back to Lionel and they couldn't find any problem. The two Legacy engines that run go easily around the 16 x 12 layout and respond to commands. I have a couple of old conventional engines and they run well. The layout is single level with the base located currently on top and near the middle of the layout. I did lay a plugged-in cord (to a grounded outlet) out along the track but that seemed to make no difference. I also tried putting my hand over the top of one of engines that wouldn't run as I turned on power but that made no difference. I have three new, never run Legacy engines that I am reluctant to try due to what is happening.

As I mentioned before I have had several conversations with Lionel all the way up to the "Chief technician". They were helpful and spent some time but no answers.

Thanks for all the suggestions, much appreciated.

I thought about trying to find a Lionel dealer and see if I could get someone to visually check the layout out. However, the nearest ones are 50- 60 miles distant.

Any more ideas ?

Thanks,

Gary

@diarmot - Depending on where you live (because there’s nothing about it in your OGR profile), might there be a model railroad club reasonably close to you?  If so, perhaps some knowledgeable/technical oriented club members could personally visit your layout and try to resolve your problem.  Just a thought?

Thanks, I'll look into it. I live in Stockton, California and I suspect the closest might be in Sacramento which is about 50 miles away.

Just a little followup. I've previously experienced really good customer service from Lionel. I called this morning and got this snippy and abrupt woman who was in no mood to do anything except get me off the phone. So, I guess there is always at least one in any customer service site! I recall the names of a couple of the helpful reps so, when I have time will try to contact them.

Gary

There has to be some reasonably knowledgeable folks in Stockton that could help you with this issue.  Since I'm in PA, I'd have to have airfare to get the job done.

@diarmot - There may be some members of theLionel Collectors Club of America (LCCA) living in Stockton, which IMO would be ideal because they’d be geared to and familiar with O Gauge Lionel products.  Consequently if I were you I’d call up the LCCA’s website and shoot them an email explaining your situation and that you’re seeking some assistance.  Then they might be able to put you in touch with one/some of their members who live in or near Stockton and who, ideally, would be amenable to visiting your layout personally.  Just a thought.

Good Luck!

John,

Stockton has changed dramatically since I moved here in 1993, all three of the O gauge stores have closed, the last about a year ago. As far as I can see there is an HO club and a Euro train interest group in town I will touch base with the Euro train small store and see if the owner knows anything about O gauge local sources. The pickings in Sacramento are pretty slim but I am contact with the remaining O gauge store in the Sac. era.

Actually I am making some progress. I was able to get the two engines that function operating on the two outer loops via different Power masters and 180 watt bricks. I also found that these two outer loops have a cross wiring at some point. Will work on locating that today.

Thanks for your suggestion. That plane trip from Pa. would probably be daunting and expensive !

Gary

Hi PH1975,

That's a very good suggestion. I used to be a member but it lapsed a few years ago when I partially lost interest. Even if they lived in Sacramento or Modesto it's a pretty quick trip to my place in a NE Stockton rural development, off of Hwy 99. Will give it a try

Thank you

Gary

I know folks like Gunrunner John are experts at all of the control systems available for three rail command control, DCS and TMCC/Legacy. I’m reading your dilemma and I understand the frustration that one goes through trying to run their nice engines. So, Lionel says your system works, therefore we can eliminate that issue. Now, I’m reading that you are using PowerMasters, Question, I’ve had to give my PowerMaster an ID # number, have you programmed these PowerMasters,  then I address the PowerMaster the number and use the L button on the remote to tell the track it turn on all power to operate Legacy/TMCC engines. Each engine has its own ID # number and then they come alive. So, I use 1 TPC 400, connected to two 180 watt bricks, The TPC’s ID is eng 4 and when I address this TPC, this turns the power on to my track. (With a Lionel TPC, you can choose Command or Conventional mode with the Cab 2Remote)( With a PowerMaster, you have a slide switch to have Command or Conventional) … so, you might see if your PowerMasters have an ID number. Another thing, Your Legacy 990 set has 9 settings for frequency control. Under the Command base is a small button that you can use to select what frequency from 1 thru 9, so choose setting 9, your manual will thoroughly explain how to select the frequency. Then, your Cab 2 Remote needs to be compatible to this same frequency… So, if your base is set to 9, the Cab 2 needs to find this setting… One thing for sure is your batteries in the Cab 2 need to be properly charged.
1. PowerMasters need to be programmed and the program switch turned to Run.
2. Your Diesels/Locomotives need to be programmed properly and the run program switch placed in Run.

You might want to place a picture of your wiring and connections here on this thread to enable us to see how you have everything connected.. Good luck in getting your layout up and running. Happy Railroading Everyone

I noticed your train room has two 20amp lines to provide power for your trains. Are all your power bricks and your command base plugged into one of those line, or are they using both. The reason I ask is because if they are plugged into both, you may have a phase problem. This will depend on how the power lines are wired in your breaker box. If they are both connected on the same side in the box there should be no problem with electric phasing. If the two lines are connected on both sides, one on each side, you could have one or more power bricks out of phase.

Larry and Howard, Thanks for your posts.

After much experimentation and review I think I have the issues with Powermaster addressing and the process of addressing engines. I two have two Legacy engines that work well on my system. Also, many of my engines will run in conventional mode, however, Larry, I appreciate your response, it caused me to review my process. I have 6 powermasters and 6 180 watt power bricks connected to essentially 6 "loops/ large sidings. There is a common ground.

I don't know the answer regarding the how the breakers are connected. My friend, who is a fairly high level contractor connected those. I will ask him when he comes over next weekend to help with some further work.

I am having a great deal of trouble finding an out of warranty authorized service center to repair to relatively new Legacy engines. The one here in California is very pleasant to deal with but the service person is currently having some medical problems. Another I called in the mid west is very difficult to reach by telephone. Another person who was recommended by a dealer here in Cal. says he doesn't work on Legacy engines anymore since thee problems with the complexity and trouble getting parts. Any suggestions?

Thanks for the replies

Gary

Oh so close for an alliteration masterpiece:

"Puzzling Problems in Programming Lionel Legacy Locos."

LOL, I ran out of P words or it could have been a masterpiece.

Gary

"I am having a great deal of trouble finding an out of warranty authorized service center to repair to relatively new Legacy engines. The one here in California is very pleasant to deal with but the service person is currently having some medical problems."

Contact the Train Shack in Burbank if you haven't done so already.   (818) 842-3330

@diarmot - I feel your pain.  Too bad there’s not someone living reasonably close to you who has an O Gauge layout and who would let you run your (two ?) problematic Legacy engines on their layout.  At least then, if the engines ran properly, you’d be able to eliminate them as the cause of the problem and KNOW that it’s something to do with your layout which is the problem.

Failing that, perhaps you could consider starting a Go Fund Me account to raise sufficient funds to fly GRJ out to your place, as I’m sure he’d be up for a free plane ride to resolve a train issue 🤩.  However, we’ll disregard the automobile part of the equation - for now.

Good Luck and keep everyone posted if any new developments occur!

Howard:

My friend changed the two lines at the box so that they are on the same side. There appears to be a modest discernable improvement in connecting some of my engines. However, it is still inconsistent. It is somewhat easier to connect and run the engines that have blue tooth capability. I am in the process of fastening down the track and that might make some difference. A coupe or three of the engines light up but do not run. Those I've tested using a transformer and they don't run even them. Those I will send out for further testing.

I have a feeling the problem maybe loose connections on the track, some obscure grounding problem or inconsistent technique on my part.

Anyway, thanks for bringing this line problem to my attention. this all seems to be a work in progress.

Gary

Thanks, I'll try the Train Shack

Gary

@diarmot - So it’s been a couple of months since your last post and I was wondering how you’re making out with respect to your Legacy engines and layout communication problems? In particular, have or were you able to locate an O Gauge person who’s acquainted with Lionel in particular and able to assist you?  

@rthomps posted:

"I am having a great deal of trouble finding an out of warranty authorized service center to repair to relatively new Legacy engines. The one here in California is very pleasant to deal with but the service person is currently having some medical problems."

Contact the Train Shack in Burbank if you haven't done so already.   (818) 842-3330

I agree, the folks at the Train Shack are awesome.

After all the help I've received from the forum and a lot of experimentation I've gotten almost all of my Trainmaster and Legacy engines running. I've discovered some minor wiring issues which didn't directly affect the problem with the engines. I do have one that I will send in for repair. I still need to wire the switches and uncouplers and then on to landscaping and placement of buildings. I certainly wouldn't be where I am at without all the help I've received from here. Also, some of the techs at Lionel provided some guidance. Although, I've collected Lionel trains since the 1990's I've never had a permanent layout, only setting up the track at Christmas. in retrospect I probably would have been wiser to have started with something smaller than the 12 x 16 5 loop, multiple switch arrangement that I did. Plus, sitting around for years, even though inside, didn't do the engines any good. Thank you all. It's likely I may more questions but in any event I will continue to follow the forum, maybe I can be of assistance. to someone else.

Gary

@diarmot posted:

In retrospect I probably would have been wiser to have started with something smaller than the 12 x 16 5 loop, multiple switch arrangement that I did. Plus, sitting around for years, even though inside, didn't do the engines any good. Thank you all. It's likely I may more questions but in any event I will continue to follow the forum, maybe I can be of assistance. to someone else.

If you're gonna' go, go big!