Questions and thoughts about collecting

if you rule out the damage part (i've sprung a few clockwork motor springs and at least once discovered that cast iron wheels will lose in a drop against a tile floor), a little wear in normal use will likely help a model keep its value well over one that has been either kept new in the box or relegated to a shelf display.  motors and mechanical parts need to function occasionally or else the model will eventually become truly a static display or at best a horrible running model.

cheers...gary

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if you rule out the damage part (i've sprung a few clockwork motor springs and at least once discovered that cast iron wheels will lose in a drop against a tile floor), a little wear in normal use will likely help a model keep its value well over one that has been either kept new in the box or relegated to a shelf display.

If you have an item that has been run, but shows very little signs of use, or is new, old stock, then running that item certainly will diminish its resale value. Many collectors prize things that are difficult to find and will pay a premium for them. One of the factors that can make an item difficult to find is its condition. That is the reason that prices rise with condition. The ultimate being having something that still sits in its box, still sealed as it was from the factory.

If you open the box, or run the lightly used item more than just a bit, you are diminishing the uniqueness, and therefore its desirability.

I expect lots of folks to response with the usual negative comments about having something and not using it. Please remember the original poster asked about COLLECTING, not operating. We each are free to do as we please with our own property.

Despite what I have written, I have broken the factory seal on a number of Postwar Lionel items. I don't see collecting as an investment.

I guess you can say I'm an operator who also collects.  My operating layout is based on the PRR in the late 1940s, and I run all my era specific trains.  I also collect patriotic themed trains, particularly scale items based on actual paint schemes from the Bicentennial years.  I buy these because I enjoy them, remembering a time when we were proud to show our colors.  I do run them a bit, especially around the 4th of July.  So I fall under "buy for personal enjoyment".

Except for some K-Line items I bought many years ago when they were very cheap, none of these items will sell for more than I bought them for.  Resale value really doesn't matter to me anyway since I have no plans to sell them until I have to due to age.  In case I should unexpectedly pass before my wife, she has the phone numbers of several collection buyers. 

I'm not sure if this makes me a Collector or just a collector, but I enjoy it.

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Is it the rarity of any given item?

Is it how sought after that an item might be?

Believe it or not, rarity alone is not that important in determining value. There are some rare items that are not of interest to most folks, or most folks simply may not know about them. Those items generally sell for very reasonable to low prices.  The number of people who are actively interested in obtaining the item is important to the price. In effect, I am paraphrasing that old saw: "its all a matter of supply and demand". 

I think you might enjoy reading the book: "The Toy Collector" by Louis Hertz. You can get a paperback copy for less than ten dollars. The book discusses some of the questions you ask, including the idea of "limited demand", and what constitutes a variation. Here is an Amazon page on it.

(Note that Mr. Hertz was very much against restoration.)

it is too hard to determine what motivates people to collect and what they collect. watch an episode of pickers and that should show you the diversity of collections. my opinion collect what you want like or makes you feel good, in the end most of our collection will be collected at the curb in a big truck and then hauled the the ultimate collection called landfill!!!!!!!!!!! or back to china for the next collectable item.

as a past museum curator, i had a chance to care for a few models that had been on permanent display for more than 30 years.  amongst those models was a beautiful prewar Lionel grey 763E.  for the first time in decades i applied power to the model and the result was sad.  the locomotive sputtered and jerked its way down less than one foot of test track before it completely died.  cosmetically it remains a very nice display piece, but as far as operational value it would need a complete overhaul to be of any interest to a collector/ operator.

i run every piece of equipment i have regularly (well at least once a year) with probably the only wear exacted on a model being a few angstroms off the electric motor brushes.  as i mentioned, you do take a chance as there have been rare occasions that i have damaged a model that might have otherwise been spared the trauma by remaining far from harm's way on a shelf or in a box stashed in a closet, but in normal operation, i have yet to add a new dent or scratch to any of my models.  on the other hand, i wonder how many floods or house fires have consumed NIB trains that have never seen the light of day.

frankly i have no problem with the NIB collector, but personally i would never buy a model that has not been shown to be a proven runner which sitting idle will never help.  if i enjoyed collecting things that merely collect dust i would have stuck with stamps and baseball cards.

cheers...gary

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as a past museum curator, i had a chance to care for a few models that had been on permanent display for more than 30 years.  amongst those models was a beautiful prewar Lionel grey 763E.  for the first time in decades i applied power to the model and the result was sad.  the locomotive sputtered and jerked its way down less than one foot of test track before it completely died.  cosmetically it remains a very nice display piece, but as far as operational value it would need a complete overhaul to be of any interest to a collector/ operator.

I would not expect a locomotive that had been sitting for decades to run without a basic cleaning and lubrication. Contact surfaces do oxidize.

The TCA definitions of condition specifically exclude whether an item is in running condition.

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i run every piece of equipment i have regularly (well at least once a year) with probably the only wear exacted on a model being a few angstroms off the electric motor brushes.

And run marks on the wheels and pickup rollers.

Such things are important to some.

I have trains that I consider part of my "collection" that do not get run. And I have trains that I run. As always, to each their own.

Like CAPPilot, I am an operator/collector. My own field of interest is operating cars and accessories. I really don't care too much about the wear and tear on the external appearance, I'm more interested in whether or not it performs as it's supposed to do. As a completist of sorts, my aim was to have one of each of these items of the Postwar era (except for the Military & Space), and in that I think I've done pretty well, especially as much of what I have has come from "under-the-table" and boxless shelves. It all looks good to me.

As for MIB/NIB/Test Run Only: I've opened my share of NOS MPC engines and taken a little glee in being the first to run them.

If I can afford it (and can fix it myself), I'll use it. Hey, they're toys, right?

i could swear i once saw a video clip of a train factory quality control area where the dialog stated that every train was test run before it left the factory.  could it be that even new in the box, both wheels and rollers have seen some track time?

i doubt if the best visual inspection could detect the result of a few minutes of operation every other month or so especially in the case of the prewar 763 i discussed where it was likely that tens if not hundreds of hours were originally put on the model.  yet occasional test running would likely have kept this classic piece in good operational condition.

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i doubt if the best visual inspection could detect the result of a few minutes of operation every other month or so especially in the case of the prewar 763 i discussed where it was likely that tens if not hundreds of hours were originally put on the model.  yet occasional test running would likely have kept this classic piece in good operational condition.

And I doubt the engine needed anything more than basic maintenance.

The value of an item is determined by what someone is willing to pay for it. You can have all the books in the world that place a value on a piece, but it doesn't mean anything unless someone is willing to pay that amount for it.

I don't get hung up on these things. Our train inventory is just to have fun with it.

I have a friend that owns a collectible toy store, so we get into the "Value" conversation alot with customers.  I have an extensive toy collection.. I have seen flash in the pan values (Benie Babies) and slower flashes.  GI JOE from the 60s.  I think that trains had initially kept their value longer, because more kids had them for a longer period of time.. Example.

Gi joe - made from 1964 - 1973 or so.  A small group of kids had them when they were kids, so when they grew up and had disposable income 20 years ago, the price shot up.  They relived their childhood for a while and then the prices dropped and lots of people went underwater.. Then it was ninja turtles etc.

But look at trains.. that hobby (with lionel started 100 years ago) that cross section of the population is huge and so the process of inflating and deflating takes longer.  Ebay and the internet has accelerated that.

I also think that the growing number of manufacturers making new stuff that eventually breaks and is too expensive to repair has moved lots of the new stuff from collector stuff to operator stuff that depreciates like cars to..... It breaks and needs new boards ($400 for repair or $500 for new engine)

So back to my basic statement.... COllect what you like in case it is not worth anything, you have something you like.... I like all my toys.

Ben

For all you scientists out there... I have a hypothesis that has been proven to be accurate time and time again in this hobby, so perhaps it's ready to advance its status from hypothesis to fully proven theorem...

Purchasing an item in blind hopes that it will be a highly sought-after collectible usually guarantees that it won't! 

Best to have fun and not even worry about the collectible nature of toy/model trains.

Oh yeah... regarding the last item listed above... don't even get me started on that one!!!    Suffice it to say that today's world has pretty much rendered those little jewels obsolete the moment they're printed.  

David

Tim, let's read a sentence that really stood out, on your prose, one more time:

"What makes one decide to collect certain things?"

That one question invites an answer, outside of this hobby, perhaps unintentionally.

I collect Meccano parts. Never with the intention of selling them, ever. I want these parts more than they are worth. And have frequently paid more than they are worth.  I am collecting these parts to build whatever I want without regard to what I have on hand because I have many of what I need.

My relationship with Lionel, is fluid as I don't want to be the last guy to own what I have because things change in this hobby and I use the word hobby, trains if you will, broadly.

I think a collector, well defined, is actually a keeper.

A collector: would someone please finish this for me...?

i wouldn't totally dismiss the usefulness of price guides.  they give you a good feel for the relative value and rarity of pieces in the majority of the listings.  i did an appraisal for a group of NIB recent production items (~300 pieces) and after randomly checking some auction results, i based the appraisal on 30% of the book value across the board and wound up coming within about 5% of the lot prices realized.

"What makes one decide to collect certain things?"

Lately, I've been buying passenger cars.  For me, it's the variations in the real railroad I model and wanting to have those different trains in miniature.

Why is one thing considered particularly valuable, and another is not?

Now that's a great question!  What surprises me is this-certain cars in a train demand more money than the rest.  Especially when there were equal numbers of both made.

Here's an example:  K-Line 21" aluminum cars, Union Pacific.  3 car set originally, then they made two additional pairs of two cars in each set.  Finally, an observation car for a total of 8 cars.

The original 3 car set is common and all the cars sell reasonably.

The 2 car sets are another story-they're highly desirable and go for big money.  One car in that group will demand more money than all the rest combined.  But, it was part of a pair, so there are just as many of the other car that doesn't...?

The observation-the only one made in its style, it goes for crazy big money.  I understand this one, as it hasn't been done in O scale by anyone else and is unique.  People want it.  The cheapest one I've saw sell was last weekend, and it went for close to $300.  Most sell well above that!  I think it would've brought more, but the bay snafu didn't help.

Could it be the extra cars weren't produced in large numbers, increasing the desirability?  Or, are people just trying to complete their train who missed out when they were originally offered?  I'll never figure it out, and it doesn't really matter.  I have what I want, that does matter to me.

K-Line also made similar cars in 18" length.  Though these don't demand the high premium as compared to the 21" length, some of the 18" cars are very hard to find.  Yet, they sell for less than $100 each when found.  Interesting...proves rare doen't always equal high dollars...

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Now that's a great question!  What surprises me is this-certain cars in a train demand more money than the rest.  Especially when there were equal numbers of both made.

In cases where equal numbers are made, it can still be a matter of supply versus demand. Maybe some of the cars are popular enough for some people to want multiples.

For example, Observations might sell for less than Pullmans because a train can have multiple Pullmans but only one Observation.

Good point, hadn't thought of that.

Guess I've been tipping the market  HAHA.

I think your questions, taken as a group, are an interesting discussion.  Here are my thoughts:

Is it established value on an item on some given date, based on some reference book that determines value?

No, it's what someone is willing to pay.  My opinion is that the reference book can help establish a price vector (i.e., the guide may influence what the seller asks), but ultimately, the price is what the first buyer in line is willing to pay.

What if it's an item that is not in any reference book, everything has some value?

Same answer, except that no book exists to give the seller an idea for a price starting point.  It's worth what the first guy in line is willing to pay.

Is it the rarity of any given item?

Sometimes, certainly.  But this isn't the only factor.  There might be very few of an MTH piece manufactured in early 1990s, but if people aren't lined up to buy it (i.e., there's no demand), then the rarity has no bearing on the price.

Is it how sought after that an item might be?

This is the flip side of the same coin, so it's the same answer: "Sometimes, certainly."  As above, this isn't the only factor.  There might be many of a very popular item and this will help to keep the price down, even if many collectors are after it.  This is because, even though the thing is desirable, there will always be another.

Is it the era when an item was made?

Sometimes, but only if the items from an era are either in great demand among collectors, or if very few of them were made during that era.  

The supply of Prewar Standard Gauge has not changed since 1939.  However, prices first rose (60-70-80s) and now are falling (90-2000s).  

So, it has nothing to do with "the era"; it has everything to do with collectors who grew up with trains produced in that era are arriving at the end of the mortality curve (i.e., supply is constant, but demand is falling).

Is it personal enjoyment of seeing the item on a layout, or on a shelf under glass?

Yes.  (i.e., both)

Is it the maker of the item?

Yes, sometimes, if that maker's wares are in demand among collectors.  As just one example, Marklin has a steady stream of well-heeled enthusiasts.  I am constantly astonished at the prices those items fetch.

Is it the original selling price?

I would say, yes, this has an influence.  An item that was originally very expensive (e.g., a $75 scale hudson from the 1930s) is likely to command a premium throughout its life as a collectible).

And whether it works or not?

It depends if the buyer is an operator or a collector of shelf queens.  

It also depends on the scarcity of the item in question.  If a Lionel 2-7/8" train that was verified to be one of the first 10 made by Joshua Cowen became available, the fact that it ran or not would not enter into the equation.  However, if you're at a show looking at a 364 Log Loader with a missing conveyor belt, the price will most certainly be different than the price for all the other 364 log loaders in operating condition.

Are hand made, one-of-a-kind items likely to be more valuable than massed produced items?  Or the other way around?

It depends.  Who made it?  A Master modeler?  A six year old?  A six year old daughter of a U.S. President?  Pablo Picasso?  Is it a factory prototype?  

A popsicle-stick flatcar creation made by me when I was six would have negligible value on the open market.  That same creation, if made by Abe Lincoln's child, or Frank Pettit, or Georgia O'Keeffe would be more valuable.

What makes one decide to collect certain things? 

I always say, "Collecting is a function of nostalgia."  YMMV.

Why is one thing considered particularly valuable, and another is not?

See above, "Supply vs. Demand."

Is it the collector masses, as they move from one trend to another that determine value?

Yes, insofar as this would influence the "demand" side of the fundamental equation.

HTH.

Steven J. Serenska

As an appraiser, my answer to 'what makes an item a collectible?" depends on some of the following: 

Supply and demand of the item

(Perceived) value relative to original price/ cost

Regional or location influences

Obsolescence or foresight in design or construction

Availability of money (resources)

It is fascinating for me to observe what people value and are willing to pay a lot of money for compared to what I and others value, and to understand their motivations for buying and selling. 

Isn't this the REAL TRAINS forum ?

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Isn't this the REAL TRAINS forum ?

No, its the "York TCA meet forum".

This is a odd statement. I've yet to see the prices of Std Gauge do anything but hold steady or increase. But of course each of us are entitled to our own opinion.

Hey Pappy:

I'll make a deal with you:

• We'll go to my train shows to buy Standard Gauge trains
• We'll go to your train shows to sell them.

We'll be gazillionaires.

I don't think it would work ... but that's what makes the world go 'round ... and why hashing it all out on an online forum can be fun.

My only real "evidence" in this regard is anecdotal.  I purchased my first Standard Gauge train for under the tree last Christmas.  I got an Ives Transition 10E with three passenger cars (baggage, coach, observation) in VG+ condition for $235.  I don't think I could have done that 15 years ago, but maybe I'm wrong.

It would be great if this thread could be reactivated under this narrower topic just to hear what others think about it.

SJS