R2LC/R2LC Boards Are No Longer Available, What Do I Do?

These are fairly easy issues to diagnose and fix. I’ve always wanted figure out why some R2LCs seem to be less responsive to commands in command mode or some seem to have a more robust serial line. I have a few duds kicking around that could probably be brought back up to snuff I suppose. These were simply swapped out and chucked into my e-scrap bin.

You could be sitting on a gold mind if you can bring these duds back to life.  I have a few spares I’ll be keeping just in case.  

and, you may need one of these rigs...

I use a 5x Diopter (2.25x) and,  I still need 3x readers on top of it.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

These are fairly easy issues to diagnose and fix. I’ve always wanted figure out why some R2LCs seem to be less responsive to commands in command mode or some seem to have a more robust serial line. I have a few duds kicking around that could probably be brought back up to snuff I suppose. These were simply swapped out and chucked into my e-scrap bin.

No doubt, they can be fixed.  My goal was to point out to the less informed that it's easy to bring some of them back to life.

I also have some that have poor reception, but I really don't have an idea of what might be dying on them.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

and, you may need one of these rigs...

I use a 5x Diopter (2.25x) and,  I still need 3x readers on top of it.

I have a similar model, though I ripped that annoying flapper off as it kept getting in the way.  My switch is in a different place, but otherwise it looks identical.  after a few years, mine developed a open circuit right at the top hinge to the ring, I had to take it all apart to fix the power cable.  Given that it gets used every day, usually multiple times, that's probably not unexpected.

MPC and post war trains looking better and better.

@jim sutter posted:

MPC and post war trains looking better and better.

Not to me, I sold all of mine, I'm committed to command control.

gunrunnerjohn,

You are probably the smartest person on this forum when it comes to repairing all this new stuff. Myself, I don't know the first thing about it.

GRJ......and others thanks for the information. DigiKey order in process. I have the light and proper soldering equipment already. I have several non working boards. One new right out of the package from last years sale. Another R4LC that was under water along with a AC Commander and Sound Commander. After a good cleaning those two boards worked fine! I'm thinking the caps on the R4LC need to be replaced.

Richard

@jim sutter posted:

gunrunnerjohn,

You are probably the smartest person on this forum when it comes to repairing all this new stuff. Myself, I don't know the first thing about it.

Don't feel so bad Jim. John just is in soaking up all that stuff like the sponge he is for that particular thing. If you want to know useless information about movies, I could probably fill that role to a degree, lol.

Also, John excels like most of us do with the curiosity of how things work. Since electronics is his forte, just seems natural to him. Gotta love that.

If it was not for John I would have a yard full of  display only dead  engines.  He is the resurrection man for my engines.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not to me, I sold all of mine, I'm committed to command control.

@jim sutter posted:

gunrunnerjohn,

You are probably the smartest person on this forum when it comes to repairing all this new stuff. Myself, I don't know the first thing about it.

Of course he is, because he was Navy-trained. 👍

Only one thing to do in my opinion - stop buying! Which is exactly what I’m going to do…… Let’s see how long it takes for a solution when everyone cancels pre - orders?

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Of course he is, because he was Navy-trained. 👍

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

By now, everyone as digested the news that Lionel declared obsolete many electronic boards and removed stock from the parts site, that includes the R2LC and R4LC TMCC/Legacy receiver boards.  What do you do now.

Many of the failures of the R2LC/R4LC are actually not that difficult to fix, since the boards are no longer stocked, now's a good time to consider that fact and look at reviving some of the "broken" ones laying around.

A major source of failures is the five triacs that control the lights, couplers, and smoke.  These are not difficult to replace with a decent soldering iron and reasonable soldering skills.  The parts are also pretty cheap.

Another less common failure that is similar in complexity to repair is the 5V regulator, again not difficult to replace.

Finally, occasionally the capacitors will be pulled loose by rough handling, the most common one is on the lower left of the graphic below.  Those are equally easy to replace.

Below is a graphic that depicts the locations of the afore mentioned parts and the part numbers.

My technique for replacing these is fairly simple.

I first grab the part with needle-nose pliers and carefully flex it back and forth keeping the movement right at the bottom of the part.  When the part breaks off, I have the three leads hanging down.

Next, I turn the board over and trim any excess lead on the back side for the parts flush with the board.

Next, I clip a set of forceps on one of the leads and let them hang there with the board in my PanaVise.  On the revers side that is facing up, I use a spot of solder on the iron to heat the joint and melt the solder, the lead should fall out from the weight of the forceps, but you can give it a gentle tug if it doesn't.

Do this for all the leads.

Next, waiting for the raised eyebrows and rolling eyes...

I hold the board in my hand and from the back, carefully heat the hole again until the solder melts.  With a quick sharp rap on the bench, I clear the hole.  I find this technique works way better than trying to do with with desoldering braid or a solder sucker, both of which I do have.

Make sure there are no solder splashes on either side of the board when you've cleared the hole, and you're ready to install the new part.

Good suggestion - going forward some might want to get a good vacuum solder sucker. The other good thing. While everyone was buying trains the last few years. I slowed down. I was basically just buying parts…

Lots of them. I have boxes of pcb boards box’s. I mean 5 milk crates of parts.

The used train market prices are going to get decimated.  Who, with knowledge is going to buy a engine where parts aren’t available - to keep the engine originally intact.

I might start dissembling my roster 150 legacy engines.They might be worth more in parts.

John,

We really need a trouble shooting area on the forum. Just, for the tmcc and modular legacy boards.

@shawn posted:

John,

We really need a trouble shooting area on the forum. Just, for the tmcc and modular legacy boards.

I tried to order traction tires. The originals were "obsolete". The replacements were "out of stock". 😵‍💫

I've seen very few Lionel locomotives that I can't fit MTH tires to.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've seen very few Lionel locomotives that I can't fit MTH tires to.

I need 1" tires to fit my berk and mountains. Thanks for the tip John.

I'll have to go over to the Mth part site and track some down.

What do you need traction tire for….I can check my parts - You have the part number.

So with the R2LC and R4LC’s gone how can Scott Mann continue to supply the ERR products line?. I’m assuming Lionel still controls that product even though he’s the dealer.

@romiller49 posted:

So with the R2LC and R4LC’s gone how can Scott Mann continue to supply the ERR products line?. I’m assuming Lionel still controls that product even though he’s the dealer.

Good question!

Since Lionel is choosing not to produce the R2LC or R4LC boards anymore, to support the large existing customer base, it would be great if they made the design files available so that at least us common-folks could debug & fix them more intelligently, vs having to reverse engineer them.  Or, at least release a document that shows step-by-step how to convert an engine with a R2LC/R4LC over to the newer RCMC.

For desoldering, I've had very good luck with the Hakko FR-301.  It's on the pricey side, so probably not worth it if you are doing rework only once in a blue moon.  However, I replace chips quite often and it's my go-to device for pin-through-hole components.  For surface mount chips with many leads, I use SRA Fast Chip.  You flow some of it on top of the existing solder joints and it changes the chemistry of the solder to lower the melting point.  I've been able to pull 208-pin PQFP devices with it.  The only catch is all the solder remnants must be cleaned up so that the final solder joint is not weaker.

@romiller49 posted:

So with the R2LC and R4LC’s gone how can Scott Mann continue to supply the ERR products line?. I’m assuming Lionel still controls that product even though he’s the dealer.

Scott made a bunch of R4LC-C08 boards for his production, he's working his way through them.  As long as he can get parts, I'm "assuming" he'd keep making them as stocks run low.

@jim sutter posted:

MPC and post war trains looking better and better.

Jim (and others),

With all due respect let's look at this objectively:

1. Does Lionel presently make the electrical and mechanical parts that keep Postwar stuff going?
2. Do they still have them in inventory?
3. How often do Postwar owners have to go to a third-party for replacements because Lionel considers them obsolete?
4. How many third-party parts sources are there?
5. Are their prices lower, the same as, or higher than Lionel's?

Before the recent announcement third-party electronics parts sources weren't needed.  Now that they are let's wait a little while before writing off all command control, to see if any pop up.  Let them get organized and up to speed.

Hobbies are supposed to exist to allow people to slow down and relax.  If that's the case why is it that so many of us hobbyists on this forum have so little patience?

Mike

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Scott made a bunch of R4LC-C08 boards for his production, he's working his way through them.  As long as he can get parts, I'm "assuming" he'd keep making them as stocks run low.

Thanks John, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Jim (and others),

With all due respect let's look at this objectively:

1. Does Lionel presently make the electrical and mechanical parts that keep Postwar stuff going?
2. Do they still have them in inventory?
3. How often do Postwar owners have to go to a third-party for replacements because Lionel considers them obsolete?
4. How many third-party parts sources are there?
5. Are their prices lower, the same as, or higher than Lionel's?

Before the recent announcement third-party electronics parts sources weren't needed.  Now that they are let's wait a little while before writing off all command control, to see if any pop up.  Let them get organized and up to speed.

I'm anxious, like many here, to see what 3rd party options pop up. That said, reproducing mechanical parts and reproducing command-control and sound electronics is quite something else. I suspect that many people who have the know-how would be worried about getting sued to oblivion by the big L if they tried and made any mis-steps... even with the vast majority of the TMCC protocol long out of patent protection.

John, It appears you have both the skills and knowledge to add another distraction to the completion of your own model railroad; reconditioning of R2LC & R4LC boards. Customer sends you the board in approved (by you) packaging. If simply repairable , you do it for a flat fee (that includes your parts, labor, padded return packaging (padded shipping envelopes) and USPS 1st class mailing (via PirateShip or the like). Non rebuildable ones will returned at customer's expense or automatically become your property - I think most everyone here would trust your judgement on this. Could this be profitable for you?  (shipping/packaging<$5, parts/shop supplies $??, Your labor based on train repair rates in your area $??). This is common in my world (parts for imported cars) with starters, alternators, A/C compressors, brake calipers, FWD CV axles, some F.I. parts, etc.) all being offered as rebuilt. Just a random thought on my part.

Well, truthfully, I don't want to open the floodgates for something like this, I'm actually trying to taper down on repairs & upgrades.

It might be worth documenting all of the output functions and performance vs. operator input in both the command and conventional environments and then doing so for all the identifiable hardware and firmware revs of these boards over the years.

There are more outputs these devices have other than the simple outputs in the OP. There is the PWM output and then there is also the serial comm output for instance. Also I remember the early R2LCs had a speed triggered smoke boost feature that disappeared at some point (maybe still there but I haven’t checked in years).

It might be neat to identify a test point to measure the signal strength into the receiver for the dreaded ‘weak signal/blinky headlight syndrome’ so one may change be able to swap a failing/underperforming/out of tolerance component to restore full robust response.

@rplst8 posted:

I'm anxious, like many here, to see what 3rd party options pop up. That said, reproducing mechanical parts and reproducing command-control and sound electronics is quite something else. I suspect that many people who have the know-how would be worried about getting sued to oblivion by the big L if they tried and made any mis-steps... even with the vast majority of the TMCC protocol long out of patent protection.

You have a good point, however the only thing that is substantially different is the software.  Reproducing hardware is just like reproducing electrical or mechanical parts.

Two things to consider:

1. Patents -- Mechanical, electrical, and electronic parts, and software might still be covered by one or more patents.  This could be an issue if Lionel does not wish to license any of these, but back in the day Lionel's electrical and mechanical parts were covered by patents, and still third parties sprung up to reproduce these parts.   I assume there was no legal issue when they did because the patents had already expired (17 years, and then later on 20 years).
2. Copyrights -- Software is the same as electrical and mechanical parts from a patent point of view, but quite different in that it can also be copyrighted.  Copyrights on the software in Lionel's boards did not/does not expire in 20 years. Copyrights can be renewed for a much longer period.  This would likely be the issue that would get tangled up in licensing the third party sales of reproduction boards.

If understand things correctly though there is nothing to stop a third party from writing it's own software that accomplishes the same task in a different way.  Patents prevent this, as long as they are active, but copyrights do not.

Another way to say it is that patents allow the patent holder to prevent reverse engineering, but copyrights don't.

I think that the hardware folks needed to do what is needed are largely already available.  Assuming that any applicable patents have expired are there any software engineers out there who'd like to take a stab at it and help them?  Any intellectual property attorneys to verify that the approach is feasible?

Mike

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

It might be worth documenting all of the output functions and performance vs. operator input in both the command and conventional environments and then doing so for all the identifiable hardware and firmware revs of these boards over the years.

Mike Reagan did a post about this and I captured it as it has useful information.

R2LC Version Differences from Mike Reagan.txt

Yeah not much info there at all.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

If understand things correctly though there is nothing to stop a third party from writing it's own software that accomplishes the same task in a different way.  Patents prevent this, as long as they are active, but copyrights do not.

Another way to say it is that patents allow the patent holder to prevent reverse engineering, but copyrights don't.

I think that the hardware folks needed to do what is needed are largely already available.  Assuming that any applicable patents have expired are there any software engineers out there who'd like to take a stab at it and help them?  Any intellectual property attorneys to verify that the approach is feasible?

I believe you are correct, but I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.  In any case, I suspect there won't be many takers to take on the task of creating an R2LC clone, I don't see the return on investment here.

The FM receiver chip is another issue, it's been obsolete for years.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Yeah not much info there at all.

It's the best that I've found.  Truthfully, if you were to characterize the R2LC-C08 well, that works in almost all situations.  Stuff like the Aquarium car special version seems like a lost cause, how many of them could you ever sell?  I've actually used the C08 version universally for years, so that's the one I'd want to emulate.

Nobody has ever really measured and documented all the inputs and outputs that I can recall. It might be helpful to better understand these devices in the hopes of fixing a few every now and again. Seeing what the PWM is doing along with the discrete inputs and outputs is fairly simple to measure and document. Decoding the serial line would be a little more interesting. For instance - what does the chuff input from pin 17 spit out to the serial line when triggered?

I have no real interest in emulating the R2LC for commercial purposes, that could be a challenge for someone else of a more entrepreneurial spirit.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

  Any intellectual property attorneys to verify that the approach is feasible?

Only if you promise not to give me another hard time for dispensing  IP advice without pre-clearance from the moderators first...

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Nobody has ever really measured and documented all the inputs and outputs that I can recall. It might be helpful to better understand these devices in the hopes of fixing a few every now and again. Seeing what the PWM is doing along with the discrete inputs and outputs is fairly simple to measure and document. Decoding the serial line would be a little more interesting. For instance - what does the chuff input from pin 17 spit out to the serial line when triggered?

I've never seen any mysterious behavior of the PWM outputs, they're operation seems very straight-forward.  Ditto for the lights, couplers, and smoke, at least for the C08 version.  I've looked at the serial bitstream and can see the change with the chuff, but I never actually setup the scope to properly decode the whole bit stream.  Usually, I'm just looking to see if it's getting to the serial data if I'm having a problem with chuff getting to the tender.  It would be an interesting experiment, just never find the time.  The bit rate is interesting, it's about 3K, a nice round number that doesn't match any standard.   I'm guessing there's a good reason for that, probably matching up to some processor capability.

Clearly, the serial data is probably the biggest documentation task.

Truthfully, I'd be happy with the hardware design documentation, even a complete schematic would be great!

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I have no real interest in emulating the R2LC for commercial purposes, that could be a challenge for someone else of a more entrepreneurial spirit.

I'll be a spectator for this one as well.