Thanks Scott!
I appreciate your info Scott on the TMCC ERR products. It makes sense that TMCC products will eventually see end of life with part obsolescence. I doubt anyone is going to redesign a TMCC board using current components. Yes, I'm sure it could be done, but is there any value in doing so. With forum members like Bruk/Gunrunner John/HarmondYards etc... new options are always available to keep the fleet running. Since RCMC boards are available, engines can be converted to legacy.
It still does not make any sense to pull the old boards from stock. As others have stated, Lionel is still stocking all the mechanical parts for older locs. If someone else is buying the supply, its only good if Lionel gives them access to the code to program the boards. Odyssey boards are generic for many locs. According to Mike Reagan, the difference was the programming so the speed steps are correct. When I was fixing my TMCC GG-1, Mike had me try the motor board in another loc. He said it would work but the speed steps would be off. It helped me diagnose the problem. The same goes for the radio boards. Some accessories require specific code.
The only thing that makes sense to me is that Lionel is dumping all the old tech (boards, chip burners, etc) so they can stay focused on the current rcmc boards. By off loading the old boards to a third party, it frees up space and also time in supporting the old stuff. It would just be nice to know what Lionel's plan is. Just pulling the stock just leads to conspiracy theories on what is going on.
@Joe Fermani posted:The only thing that makes sense to me is that Lionel is dumping all the old tech (boards, chip burners, etc) so they can stay focused on the current rcmc boards. By off loading the old boards to a third party, it frees up space and also time in supporting the old stuff. It would just be nice to know what Lionel's plan is. Just pulling the stock just leads to conspiracy theories on what is going on.
Exactly Joe. Well stated.
Well - that’s that - not a peep from Lionel! Time to sell off everything except a few early pieces. I’m going to keep all conventional and some early tmcc with AC motored engines. Some DC engines with basic electronics….All the rest of the newer “ obsolete”technology ” is going to be parted with. Any electronics or interfaces.
except - a zw-l and zwc..
i never considered Lionel “throw” away. I’m going to stay in the hobby. But, on a different level. I’m going back to the past……where I didn’t get “screwed”.
The hobby is about to get a lot cheaper……Goodbye Lionel. I’m canceling my pre- orders. I will not deal with Lionel until there is a change in Management. Which, I presume to be part of the issue?
I’m talking 150 to 200 engines. I’m looking about disabling them for parts…to sell. I have to figure it out…
@shawn posted:Well - that’s that - not a peep from Lionel! Time to sell off everything except a few early pieces. I’m going to keep all conventional and some early tmcc with AC motored engines. Some DC engines with basic electronics….All the rest of the newer “ obsolete”technology ” is going to be parted with. Any electronics or interfaces.
except - a zoo amd zwc..i never considered Lionel “throw” away. I’m going to stay in the hobby. But, on a different level. I’m going back to the past……where I didn’t get “screwed”.
The hobby is about to get a lot cheaper……Goodbye Lionel. I’m canceling my pre- orders. I will not deal with Lionel until there is a change in Management. Which, I presume to be part of the issue?
I think we got it. I understand your frustration but you must have said this at least 4 or more times in this thread. I think everyone knows where you stand.
John,
what are you going to do with the disappearance of these boards. Doesn’t- it throw cold water on your business? Or, will you have to reinvent the wheel.
I’m also hearing from one of my dealers. He can no longer get a discount on parts. As, the warranty method has changed. I’m not sure this is true…But, would certainly be a double screw job.
@shawn posted:John,
what are you going to do with the disappearance of these boards. Doesn’t- it throw cold water on your business? Or, will you have to reinvent the wheel.
I’m also hearing from one of my dealers. He can no longer get a discount on parts. As, the warranty method has changed. I’m not sure this is true…But, would certainly be a double screw job.
Four pages and it still hasn’t sunk in that any TMCC locomotive can be made to run again with ERR parts. John is an ERR dealer. I doubt he is on his way to the poor house. The wheel has already been reinvented.
Pete
@shawn posted:Well - that’s that - not a peep from Lionel! Time to sell off everything except a few early pieces. I’m going to keep all conventional and some early tmcc with AC motored engines. Some DC engines with basic electronics….All the rest of the newer “ obsolete”technology ” is going to be parted with. Any electronics or interfaces.
except - a zw-l and zwc..i never considered Lionel “throw” away. I’m going to stay in the hobby. But, on a different level. I’m going back to the past……where I didn’t get “screwed”.
The hobby is about to get a lot cheaper……Goodbye Lionel. I’m canceling my pre- orders. I will not deal with Lionel until there is a change in Management. Which, I presume to be part of the issue?
I’m talking 150 to 200 engines. I’m looking about disabling them for parts…to sell. I have to figure it out…
Shawn I don't know how much you've pre-ordered but what about the dealer you have pre-orders with? They may get stuck with product that might not sell. Do what you have to but I'd think about this,
@MartyE posted:I think we got it. I understand your frustration but you must have said this at least 4 or more times in this thread. I think everyone knows where you stand.
He seems to be on a crusade/vendetta as he is posting this in other threads where people have asked for part numbers. whatever
@sdmann posted:Hi Folks,
To give you all a little background, we entered in a licensing agreement in 2018 with Lionel to be the sole, worldwide producer and seller of ERR components, including R4LCs. We independently procure these boards from a manufacturer designated by Lionel. We have stocked up on many of these boards (Cruise Commanders, AC Commanders, Mini Commanders, Railsounds Boards and R4LCs) in anticipation of chip obsolescence which is taking place now.
Thanks for chiming in Scott, I was hoping you'd drop by. 
@feet posted:Shawn I don't know how much you've pre-ordered but what about the dealer you have pre-orders with? They may get stuck with product that might not sell. Do what you have to but I'd think about this,
I think my dealers about had it too. I certainly won’t have a issue assisting him with some form of economic recovery.
@gunrunnerjohn great thread! I learned a lot from the constructive posters. Sorry to see so many people having a crisis over a handy tip you decided to share.
I also like your jig for testing. How long did it take you to come up with that?
@EscapeRocks posted:He seems to be on a crusade/vendetta as he is posting this in other threads where people have asked for part numbers. whatever
Vendetta - lol! More like utter amazement - It line reading fall of the house of usher!
@shawn posted:Well - that’s that - not a peep from Lionel! Time to sell off everything except a few early pieces. I’m going to keep all conventional and some early tmcc with AC motored engines. Some DC engines with basic electronics….All the rest of the newer “ obsolete”technology ” is going to be parted with. Any electronics or interfaces.
except - a zw-l and zwc..i never considered Lionel “throw” away. I’m going to stay in the hobby. But, on a different level. I’m going back to the past……where I didn’t get “screwed”.
The hobby is about to get a lot cheaper……Goodbye Lionel. I’m canceling my pre- orders. I will not deal with Lionel until there is a change in Management. Which, I presume to be part of the issue?
I’m talking 150 to 200 engines. I’m looking about disabling them for parts…to sell. I have to figure it out…
I’d sure hate to be anywheres near you if we ever got invaded, ….you’d surrender before the first boot hit the ground,…good god, stop with the doomsday bologna, ….everyone is attempting to figure out what we can do and solve the problem….again, here we go with the same parade…..PLEASE!…stop muddying up what should be a USEFUL thread……sit back, relax and observe, or offer up useful solutions…..
Pat
@BillYo414 posted:I also like your jig for testing. How long did it take you to come up with that?
It actually evolved over time. I just kept adding features as I needed them. Truthfully, if I knew then what it would become, I'd have planned it better. I started out just sticking the motherboard on the board with some basic parts to check out boards. I just kept adding features to test additional stuff.
@shawn posted:I’m talking 150 to 200 engines. I’m looking about disabling them for parts…to sell. I have to figure it out…
How about we take all of them off your hands for ten cents on the dollar and you can move on to whatever long term solution you're seeking? 
@rplst8 posted:Speed Queen is a subsidiary of McGraw-Edison, which is a subsidiary of Cooper, which is owned by Eaton, which is headquartered in Dublin, Ireland.
Speed Queen makes its own appliances though and isn't rebadged x. These days there are a few appliance manufacturers and they simply do what GM used t do, slap a label on a car to make it brand X (with some minor differences). GE for example is Haier (Chinese company). So basically you are buying the same appliance under a different label. Bosch is associated with Thermador and another company called Gaggenau; the difference is that with high end appliances the quality is better and the machines tend to be very different. Whirlpool own like 8 or 9 different brands. Jenn Air used to be high price and high quality, these days it is just high price IMO.
What would be really awesome is if Lionel made their original code open source, with some sort of source control. This is done in the software industry all the time, and it allows among other things improvements and bug fixes that are under source control. That doesn't mean third party products would be good, you always take your chances with third party firms, but at least we would have it.
In a sense the auto industry does this, it is why you can get parts for 25 year old cars easily (or more).
One thing I agree with those worried, if the cost of keeping old boards is such that they don't want to do it, then allowing third party firms to have access to them would make sense. They wouldn't even have to release the source code, they could simply not bother defending their patents. I think the argument that third party parts would ruin their reputation is a bit specious, if Lionel basically washes their hands of the parts for those engines then it would take an idiot to blame Lionel if it fails *shrug*. And the thing is the marketplace would take over, if you buy boards from some fly by night firm in China and they don't work, word gets out *shrug*. Ideally Lionel and MTH given their business models would license their older stuff to someone like Scott at 3rd rail (I say like Scott, simply bc I don't think a single small company could handle that). The other thing with open source is chip availability would become less of an issue, third party firms could replace custom ASICS with something that is more universal, allowing being able to more easily use off the shelf components and re-doing them if a particular part becomes obsolete.
@BillYo414 posted:@gunrunnerjohn great thread! I learned a lot from the constructive posters. Sorry to see so many people having a crisis over a handy tip you decided to share.
I also like your jig for testing. How long did it take you to come up with that?
For the benefit of those who want to build something similar, MIke Reagan made a bunch of test jigs that those who went to his service school could purchase. I inherited one and can tell you he used the motherboard below as the basis. LEDS were wired to lights and coupler pins as well as the feature (usually smoke) pin of the R2LC. In addition LEDs went to the motor direction pins as well as serial out. A speaker is wired to the audio board.
There are schematics of those boards on the TMCC forum as well as the web. Not that hard to build and that board is still in stock.
Pete
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I claim nothing special about my tester, just that it's handy to have.
@Norton posted:Four pages and it still hasn’t sunk in that any TMCC locomotive can be made to run again with ERR parts. John is an ERR dealer. I doubt he is on his way to the poor house. The wheel has already been reinvented.
Pete
TMCC doesn't concern me. ERR to the rescue on those, from what I'm hearing. What is of concern is repair of early Legacy engines, with those boards no longer available. For example, I'm concerned about the future of my No. 11127 Legacy GS-4 Daylight. As I understand it, worse case scenario it can be converted to TMCC using ERR parts, but that will yield a lower level of performance. And what about loss of its Legacy sound?
@breezinup posted:TMCC doesn't concern me. ERR to the rescue on those, from what I'm hearing. What is of concern is repair of early Legacy engines, with those boards no longer available. For example, I'm concerned about the future of my No. 11127 Legacy GS-4 Daylight. As I understand it, worse case scenario it can be converted to TMCC using ERR parts, but that will yield a lower level of performance. And what about loss of its Legacy sound?
Pretty sure a RCDR and BEMC will work at the expense of running with other Legacy engines.
The boards will reappear at some point. When they do then pick up some spares.
Pete
@breezinup posted:TMCC doesn't concern me. ERR to the rescue on those, from what I'm hearing. What is of concern is repair of early Legacy engines, with those boards no longer available. For example, I'm concerned about the future of my No. 11127 Legacy GS-4 Daylight. As I understand it, worse case scenario it can be converted to TMCC using ERR parts, but that will yield a lower level of performance. And what about loss of its Legacy sound?
That's a real concern, and one that I share. I still have some Legacy R4LC boards that I'm saving for any upcoming repairs. I also have a few of the Legacy back-EMF motor drivers. Though they are not the same as the tach controlled DCDS, they do work with Legacy. I also have the RS 5.0 boards that are used in many of the Legacy models, including the GS-4 from 2008. If the RS chips die, you're out of luck, but the boards are still around.
@gunrunnerjohn @Norton seems like some of the best tools come from experience and filling a role like this. I wouldn't mind building one of these for myself. Thanks!
@Rider Sandman posted:Yet, you expect a 100-year-old low volume toy manufacturer in a decaying (no offense) market to magically be immune from all the market realities you just listed….all the while they should just give away what little remaining technology they have “for the benefit of the hobby.” Gulp. They’re not “doing a fine job of ruining their own reputation”, they’re trying to survive.
As an aside, your analysis of the US appliance market is also way off base. There is still lots of US made stuff under the traditional brands - Whirlpool, Maytag, Kitchenaid, Jennair, GE, etc. - admittedly under brand consolidation, but still US designed and built.
Jennair and GE are owned by Haier, a chinese company, and they are doing cross brand labelling big time. The whirlpool brands are made here, but they are basically the same appliance rebranded in a lot of cases, especially at the low and mid price points. Don't believe me? Look on an appliance part website.
"all the while they should just give away what little remaining technology they have “for the benefit of the hobby"
You are missing the point, the technology we are talking about is stuff made like 10 years ago or more, tmcc and early legacy,that apparently Lionel is no longer supporting (IE you can't get the boards). If they 'gave that away' they would not be losing revenue, since they aren't supporting it any more it seems like. If you are not getting revenue from something,you aren't supporting it, why not open it up? No one is expecting Lionel to 'give away' visionline technology, or anything they still support. Car makers basically support car parts for 7 years, then to make sure people can get parts allow third party makers to sell parts they no longer have (and they do it I believe license free).
@bigkid posted:Jennair and GE are owned by Haier, a chinese company, and they are doing cross brand labelling big time.
Can we leave the appliances to an appropriate place please?
@BillYo414 posted:@gunrunnerjohn @Norton seems like some of the best tools come from experience and filling a role like this. I wouldn't mind building one of these for myself. Thanks!
No magic here, but if you spend a little time deciding what capabilities you want it to have up front, it'll probably be a lot neater package. I'm currently thinking of a similar rig for testing RCMC boards.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:No magic here, but if you spend a little time deciding what capabilities you want it to have up front, it'll probably be a lot neater package. I'm currently thinking of a similar rig for testing RCMC boards.
I'm still mastering the basics. I feel pretty comfortable diagnosing why lights don't work and replacing a capacitor/resistor if I easily find the replacement. I'm sure I'll get to the point where I know what I would want in terms of testing eventually.
I hope you'll post your rig if you go through with the build!
You can start simple, stick the TMCC MB on a board, and add lights, couplers, smoke loads, speaker, and the provisions to exercise DCDR & DCDS boards. Leave room for expansion and see what comes along.
So far I need to figure out what R2LC and R4LC, MB, and RCMC stand for. I can make some guesses but what are these acronyms?
@BillYo414 posted:So far I need to figure out what R2LC and R4LC, MB, and RCMC stand for. I can make some guesses but what are these acronyms?
The LCRU (Liontech Control Receiver Unit) was the first TMCC board.
I truthfully don't know exactly what R2LC is the acronym for, I never really cared. Ditto with RCMC, though you can probably guess, the R is probably Radio and MC is likely Motor Control since they added that to the single board. I'm sure somewhere it's been written down, but I never bothered to look for it. Lots of acronyms are so widely used that knowing the exact long name really serves no point, at least for me.
Probably wrong but I believe R2LC stood for Radio to Logic Controller or something close to that.
Awesome! That explains why I don't see others asking or mentioning it. I feel a lot less embarrassed about not knowing. I thought R2LC was rail to Lionel command or something. Regardless, if it doesn't help me to know them, forget I ever asked.
@BillYo414 posted:Regardless, if it doesn't help me to know them, forget I ever asked.
It's forgotten! 
I have no idea either but assumed R2LC meant reverse, 2 lights, 2 couplers????
My guess.
Pete
@gunrunnerjohn posted:How about we take all of them off your hands for ten cents on the dollar and you can move on to whatever long term solution you're seeking?
Actually - I will either part with them at a premium price. Or, burn them in effigy! If it’s the one way - I’ll let everyone here know first.
if it’s the second way. I will post a video!
@shawn posted:Actually - I will either part with them at a premium price. Or, burn them in effigy! If it’s the one way I’ll let everyone here know first.
if it’s the second way. I will post a video!
I’ve just about had it with technology - phoenix missile system, ADCAP, Trident worked on all of them in my electrical Engineering days. Then off to the computer and Integration business.
I think I’ve hit technology burnout. Everything over the last 30 is sitting in a garbage dump someplace.
Time to get back to simplistic things….or at least cheaper ones
"I will either part with them at a premium price."
"Earth to Shawn"......
@shawn posted:Actually - I will either part with them at a premium price.
Premium price??? Lol!
Good luck with that. They're obsolete.
@Landsteiner posted:
"I will either part with them at a premium price."
"Earth to Shawn"......
Landsteiner the parts - everything will be parts in the next few weeks. 150 almost all Legacy engines will be parts. Starting with 20 SD70’s. Look at it this way. If someone is willing to spend 150 bucks including shipping for a cruise M and r4 upgrade. Non - legacy. I guess I can sell either of those boards that work in legacy for 150 or over?
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@RickO posted:Premium price??? Lol!
Good luck with that. They're obsolete.
A err tmcc upgrade is 130.00 ? Plus shipping? That’s obsolete too? Lol! Double lol!
