Railsounds 4.0 board issue

First thing to try if to move the two chips to a working RS4 board and see if it's the board or the chips.  I have RS4 boards, but not the chips.  Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of the sound board being in conventional mode?  No horn or bell and the prime mover wandering around on it's own sounds like the boards serial data line took a hit.

John,

That was my thought that the serial data got it. Zapped! Going to put those chips in an extra working RS4 board. But first with try the engine in conventional mode. Just need to unplug the command base.

John,

The 2 chips in the board are paired or can the bottom chip be used with a different sound chip and viceversa? Could be one of the two chips took the hit or does both get hit? Thinking I can narrow it down in command mode.
Then, I will try the original chips in the RS4 board in conventional mode.

The two chips are paired, but there is some "give" in the paring.  The small chip has the sounds, the larger chip is the microprocessor.  The guy that knows the most about the flexibility of the pairing seems to be Todd @PaperTRW, he's helped me find a couple of compatible chips in the past.  If the small chip has been toasted, all is lost, that's your sounds.

John,

I will reach out to Todd and see what he says. Right now, this NS SD80 has a sound board from a Reading GP30 or another Reading diesel.

Just amazed how Lionel stopped selling boards with a flip of a switch and obsoleting most, if not all TMCC/Legacy engines. I know Mike Reagan expressed that all is not lost but Lionel made it harder for repairs/upgrades.

@Ted Bertiger posted:

Just amazed how Lionel stopped selling boards with a flip of a switch and obsoleting most, if not all TMCC/Legacy engines. I know Mike Reagan expressed that all is not lost but Lionel made it harder for repairs/upgrades.

I had a bad feeling when the prices of all the boards started rocketing up on the parts site.  Just yanking all the boards at once instead of giving the customer base a chance to buy some for repairs was really low class!   I've already gotten a bunch of inquiries about early Legacy locomotives and how to revive them.  They were the hardest hit since none of the more plentiful TMCC modular boards are compatible with the Legacy parts.  If you have a DCDS die in an early Legacy locomotive, there is no suitable replacement that will retain the functionality.  Even the very fragile smoke voltage regulator module is non-replaceable, there is no substitute.  So, when this $30 part dies, your expensive steamer has no smoke!

@Ted Bertiger posted:

Right now, this NS SD80 has a sound board from a Reading GP30 or another Reading diesel.

Here's one solution.  Use the ERR SD RS-Lite board.

Painless replacement of Railsounds 4 or Railsounds 5 board with ERR Railsounds-Lite board

@Ted Bertiger posted:

John,

I will reach out to Todd...

Captain,

Your 6-28226 NS SD-80 is a fairly standard-issue RS4E system. The wrinkle is that while the PIC (big chip) is generic, there are limited options that can be used with that NS SD-80 sound ROM (small chip).

I think your loco came with a RS27D43 PIC -- the unfortunate thing is that earlier diesel PICs will NOT work with that sound ROM because of the RS4E. (It was the first RS4E diesel PIC.) I think there's only one more PIC that came later -- RS27D47 -- that should also work. Then everything jumps to RS5, and those chips aren't compatible either.

Hope this helps-
TRW

Todd,

Thanks for the reply and the info. Have to look in my chips box, not potato chips box(lol), and see what I have. I do have some extras of the small chips but they are generic ones. Like I said, I have a few generic diesel sound chips that I can pop in and a few generic diesel ones already paired up in RS 24 pin boards.
Have a friend who did 3 to 2 rail conversions and was my source but has not done many in a while now.

P.S. I bought 2 of the same NS engines #7204 back then at a very good price as I really liked them plus I bought the dummy unit # 7209. Triple-heading them looks great. Wished Lionel put lighting in the dummy with some pickup rollers, I would have added those old GP boards with couplers and lighting which I have used in the past. Those boards were great for activating different accessories besides using in dummy engines!
Appreciate the reply.

John,

Like you and I both said, Lionel did this with NO haste in shutting down the electronic parts! My wallet has been shut tight in ANY future purchases from them. I really have enough trains to last my lifetime and to my grandsons. I have better places to spend my money on like another car in a Pontic Firebird or similar. Lionel can sell their trains all they want but it won’t be to me any longer.

Ted, I have the RS27D43 PIC chip if you still need it.

One more thing I should probably mention....

The RS27D43 diesel RS4E PIC *should* be backwards compatible with older RS4 sound ROMs.

So if you're testing the chips individually, you'll need another RS27D43/RS27D47 PIC to individually test the sound ROM, but you should be able to check the RS27D43 PIC with any other diesel RS4/RS4E ROMs.

TRW

Is that generally true Todd?  The later PIC versions would generally be compatible with older chips?  Does that mean the RS27D47 would be compatible with almost any sound chip?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Is that generally true Todd?  The later PIC versions would generally be compatible with older chips?  Does that mean the RS27D47 would be compatible with almost any sound chip?

Not totally prepared to document this at the moment as I'm doing it from memory, but here goes... The RS27D47 *should* be compatible with most RS4 (RS27 series) diesel sound ROMs. There may be some small functionality change, but in general, they should work. Backwards compatibility for PICs wasn't ever really an initial design goal, so I should note here that a lot of this info is from my own fiddling, versus any inside knowledge (although that pops-up from time to time). Here's how to decode the PIC number:

1) There are several "series" of PICs... RS23, RS25, RS27, RS28, RS5 and RS54 and RS55, besides several one-offs.

RS23 -- only contained in two locomotives, I believe, from 1994. These do NOT have any TMCC code inside. Works with RS2-RS4 boards. Interestingly enough, you can use a later RS25 PIC with these to give them TMCC control, although not all sounds were populated in the ROMs (like ElectroCouplers).

RS25 -- used from 1995 to 1998ish or so. These PICs are TMCC compatible. Works with RS2-RS4 boards.

RS27 -- transitioned from RS25 sometime in 1998 or 1999 and used through the end of RS4 production, and are TMCC compatible. Works with RS2-RS4 boards. While using a RS25 PIC intended for a RS27 ROM (or vice versa) should result in some recognizable sound, the mapped locations of certain functions changed resulting in some broken functionality. As an example, using a RS25 steam PIC with a RS27-designed ROM will result in TowerCom randomly playing in conventional instead of steam let-off. Note that RS4E also uses the RS27 PIC designation, and was created in the early 2000s to allow for a bigger processor, although there isn't a specific designation for them. But I believe all the RS4E RS27 pics will be numbered 43 and above, such as the PIC you asked about, RS27D47. RS4E sound ROMs must have an appropriate RS27 PIC of 43 or above.

RS28 -- an offshoot used in the early 2000's for conventional RailSounds 4 items, like starter sets. To make things like CrewTalk functional in conventional mode, the TMCC coding was removed to create needed space. These PICs must be used with their associated conventional sound ROMs. Works with RS2-RS4 boards.

RS5 -- a brand new designation for RailSounds 5 starting about 2004. Still with TMCC control. These PICs are definitely NOT backwards compatible in any way. Works with RS5 boards only.

RS54 -- an oddball PIC used around 2005 for about four steam locomotives. TMCC control. Works with RS5 boards only. Basically these are RailSounds 4 features in a RailSounds 5 package, which was done because of the increased time and effort required to develop individual RS5 items and we needed to save some dollars somewhere.

RS55 -- Railsounds 5 but with Legacy control. Works with RS5 boards only.

2) Next is a letter designation. This is what I could remember off the top of my head.

D -- Diesel
DL -- Diesel with long CrewTalk delay (to be used with StationSounds cars)
E -- Electric
IU-- Interurban
M -- Missile
P -- Phantom
S -- Steam
SA -- Articulated Steam
SH -- Steam with Horn on the 6 key
SL -- Steam with long CrewTalk delay (to be used with StationSounds cars)

And many others for Christmas sound cars, StationSounds diners, operating cars, etc. Generally speaking, you can't swap PICs between letter designations although a few are possible with minor changes in functionality, like using an S instead of an SA or a D instead of a DL.

3) Finally is a software revision number. Not all revisions were released for production.

So for the RS27D47, that's the 47th version of the RS27 Diesel PIC, in this case RS4E.

Clear as mud, right? I'll update this post as I learn and can document more. In the mean time, if anyone has a Lionel sound ROM for which you'd like to know the proper PIC to use, shoot me a note and I'll try my best.

TRW

WOW, thanks Todd.  That's more than I had, very useful.  I look forward to any updates.

Todd,

Thanks for spinning my head like a top. You really know this stuff!
I will have to check out the chips I have.
I have taken RS4 sound boards and have swapped those with RS5 sound boards to get the increased dialogue. This has worked in a diesel and a few steamers with R2LC boards with no issues at all. Bought a UP RS 5.0 from you a few years ago and use it in a scale mallet from 2001 just to have the increased dialogue with the ‘as usual’ excellent Lionel sounds.
It’s great to have someone like you helping us folks out here on OGR!

To give you an update with my NS SD80 that had its sound scrambled on my club layout, I did change the RS4 board with another RS4 board just to have sounds in it.
Well, well… the NS sound board with RS27D43 chip sat in a box with other boards I have for about 2 months now. I finally got around to putting it back in the engine just to try to it out and Walloh! IT WORKED fine! Is there a TMCC ghost flying around to correct these issues?
I figure that York is here and I might be able to find some electronic boards for future use.

The sounds definitely went out 2 months ago and have magically came back!
See you all at York this Friday.

@Ted Bertiger,

Sometimes just unplugging a board, and then immediately plugging it back in, will clean the contacts inside its connector of any oxidation they may have built up, and restore proper order.

I always try this first before going any deeper.  Surprisingly it's worked about 20% of the time.

Does it seem like it would have worked here?  Or, is the two-month delay important in your situation?

Mike

@Ted Bertiger posted:

To give you an update with my NS SD80 that had its sound scrambled on my club layout, I did change the RS4 board with another RS4 board just to have sounds in it.
Well, well… the NS sound board with RS27D43 chip sat in a box with other boards I have for about 2 months now. I finally got around to putting it back in the engine just to try to it out and Walloh! IT WORKED fine! Is there a TMCC ghost flying around to correct these issues?
I figure that York is here and I might be able to find some electronic boards for future use.

The sounds definitely went out 2 months ago and have magically came back!
See you all at York this Friday.

Top suspect is oxidation on the contacts of the two chips, using a PLCC chip extractor, I remove and reseat those, fixes many issues.