Repair / Service for Newer Trains

I think much of what you're talking about is learned by experience.  If you've done a lot of the tasks, you know how you accumulated the knowledge.  Each time I do an upgrade, I usually pick up another bit of knowledge or a new technique to make something easier.  As far as the electronics goes, once you get past the board level to components, you need to have the background and test equipment to work on them.

Optimizing smoke units could be a whole book in itself, I'm learning all the time about new ways to make them better.

Maybe you should consider writing such a book.

I do not know if you will see that.   Anyone can work on old trains.  A book like you mentioned could help.  As far as the electronics goes,  it would be tough to do as it changes and upgrades often.  It would be like the old Encyclopedia as it would be only informative up to the day it was published. 

At this time I feel the OGR Forum is still the best place on the planet to get up to the day information.

I tend to agree with most of what GRJ and Marty have said. When it comes to repairs and maintenance at the level that most folks ( repair folks and users) are comfortable with, it is mostly hands on experience that will help.  The newer electronics, with the exception of a few parts that "commonly" fail, seem to be replaced at the board level.  This is no more complex than swapping out an e-unit on a post war train as far as the actual process.  

To actually understand how the boards work and to repair them you need an understanding of basic electronics and access to equipment that most folks don't have.  There are, however, plenty of free resources on the internet to learn these skills, and second hand or inexpensive equipment to be had.  A good multi-meter will do most of what you need.  

I do have to somewhat disagree with Marty about the electronics.  Yes things change, and new things come out all the time, but at the component level there is nothing even remotely new in our trains.  If you had a working knowlege of electronics in 1980  there is nothing you wouldn't be able to understand in a modern engine.  The newest thing in any of our trains is the radio system used in LionChief engines, and even that has been common place for 15 years now.  The next most recent development?  Probably the IR system used for sensor tracks.  I know that one was common place on TV remotes by the late 80's.  Once one has a working knowledge of electronics, there is nothing especially complex in these new engines.  

JGL

John, MTH has changed board systems many times over the past years.  Lionel also did this with the new RCMC boards.  Lionel has used the IR for many years reaching back to TMCC.    That has been a flawless system for Lionel using the IR.    The trains in 1980 have not much in common with the electronics used in today's trains.  Components are constantly changing.  MTH boards have constantly been upgraded as do Lionel.    Both MTH and Lionel constantly send the tech guys updates and information on what board replaces another board.  As time goes on, certain electrical components become un available and the train makers have to do an upgrade or a work around.  None of what we have in electronics today in Lionel and MTH trains was around in 1980.  

To stay current with repairs requires a tech to stay current on the constant changes.  Back to the book idea.   It will only be good up until the day it would be published.  Common repairs would be a good book for guys to have.  Who wants to get involved with that job??

John, I read everything you post on but can say with first hand knowledge that 1980 is not 2016 when it comes to newer electronics in today's trains.

Marty,

You and Gunrunner bring up some very good points! I have often wondered with all of the electronics in the newer trains where will I be in 10 years with all of them. Will they be repairable or dust collectors with the electronics changing as I speak?

About 15 years ago I supervised a crew of 15 assemblers and Testers for an Electronic Service Center for General Electric Power Systems sector, and I remember all of the issues we had with parts going obsolete with no suggested replacements.

It was a daily battle.

JoeG

Joe,

That has been an ongoing issue with all the train companies.  They keep rising to stay ahead.  Right now MTH has a sweet situation going with the PS32 board sets.  Replace your bad PS2 5 volt and 3 volt boards and you now have PS3.  Lionel has the new RCMC board system.  It is very good.   Boards are constantly being updated.  MTH has been out of 5 volt boards for some time due to parts that went on the endangered list.   Everything is always changing.

FWIW, I still see lots of early 2000's TMCC stuff that runs as well as the day it came from the factory.  Also, the parts are still very plentiful, so I suspect I can keep TMCC stuff running for a lot more years.

John, a question for you.  I know of your excellent work with TMCC and I was wondering if you do any Legacy?

I do Legacy work, but we have a guy that actually had the benefit of the Lionel training and has all the parts, he does the warranty work.  I'd love for Lionel to have their training again...

I have been to a great many schools in my time but never seen such an intense school as the Lionel school.   When you passed that school, you knew the system.  That school was the real deal.   

I was wondering do you run Legacy or just TMCC?

The operative word being "was".

Marty, I think the disconnect here is electronics in trans versus electronics in general.  General electronic knowledge is what I was referencing with what would be known in 1980.  Sure a good microprocessor cost several hundred dollars at the time and required additional RAM and ROM chips as well as D/A converters and a whole host of other parts that would make it difficult to fit everything into even a G gauge engine, but the tech was there.  We have smaller and pore powerful micro-controllers now that also cost a hundred times less.  The only tech that really was not possible in the 70's or 80's for our trains would be the sound system, that could not have been accomplished until the mid to late 90's with the advent of massive audio data compression and dedicated digital audio chips.  The early 2000's would be the first time flash storage would have been a cost effective method.  Other than the high quality sounds that are not available, however, there is nothing that a legacy engine does that could not have been done in 1980... and probably for about the same cost that these engines sell for today.  

For the trains, lots has changed in the last 35 years, but not much really since the advent of TMCC.  You have a radio receiver that picks up 455k signal, reads 24 bits of data and depending on what that data is,  it turns on various GPIO pins at various PWM levels depending on the function.  Other GPIO's read tach sensors or IR sensors. then at the end of the line the processor adjusts the duty cycle on an H-Bridge of Triacs for the motor drive.  Once again the only complex part of the system is the audio, and that is only complex in the initial creation of the sound files, not the hardware implementation.  The person that wrote the software/firmware running on modern engines did some really hard work, but the hardware is nothing special.  

Boards change, and exactly what parts are used changes, but someone that has a good understanding of what's going on knows that you don't need to replace a BTA08 with the same part.  A BTA24 will work just as well.  If techs were taught how the boards work, not just how to test and replace them, it would not matter what new boards came along, they would be able to work on them.  

JGL

You greatly under estimate the style of chips being used and their size.  Specialty equipment that is very expensive would be needed, let alone the trace damage that can render a board useless even if you could replace a chip.  A few more years and component replacement on a new board will be a thing of the past.  G

GGG, I'm not saying that repairing the particular boards at a component level will be possible, only that having an understanding of how they actually work would be useful in trouble shooting, and for someone that understands this, there is no need to retrain them every time a new edition of a motor driver is released.  In one school of thought  you need to learn new things when a new board is released, in the other you know it is an H-Bridge with optocouplers, and you know it performs the same function as it's predecessor.  

The other point is that the tech at use in model trains is not rocket science.  I understand that it is not the sort of thing everyone understands easily, but it is nothing to be frightened of either.  

JGL

John, every month we get service updates with all the information we need with them.  All a person can do is stay up with the information as it gets sent out.  I can tell you from first hand observations that some people should not open up a train.  On the other hand, many guys are very talented and can do certain jobs.   A general book like trainlover mentioned would be good for some people.  The issue is, who has time to write it.  

Most people know how to find the right person to help them.  Someone can always be found on this Forum to answer any question or help with something strange going on.  

JohnGaltLine posted:

GGG, I'm not saying that repairing the particular boards at a component level will be possible, only that having an understanding of how they actually work would be useful in trouble shooting, and for someone that understands this, there is no need to retrain them every time a new edition of a motor driver is released.  In one school of thought  you need to learn new things when a new board is released, in the other you know it is an H-Bridge with optocouplers, and you know it performs the same function as it's predecessor.  

The other point is that the tech at use in model trains is not rocket science.  I understand that it is not the sort of thing everyone understands easily, but it is nothing to be frightened of either.  

JGL

I agree it would be a good thing to have a complete circuit description but right now the only way you will get that is by trying to reverse engineer a board. Lionel service schools in the past have not offered that in depth understanding. Rather the boards are treated as black boxes. The pins are treated as test points. By using a multimeter and testing each pin you are taught to determine if a board is bad or not and then replace it. Its about reducing labor time and turn around for the customer. Many of us can repair to component level due to our experience in electronics, not because its taught by the manufacturer. Like G says, that will be nearly impossible in the future anyway.

Pete

GGG posted:

A few more years and component replacement on a new board will be a thing of the past.

It's close now with the PS/3 board.

Gentlemen,

   Very interesting thread, however I would rather have Guns or GGG or Marty do the work on a my engines when something happens, sure I will upgrade some old bulbs with LED's and replace batteries with BCR's, however being professional engineer myself I respect and pay for a man's training and experience, when one of my good engines has a problem, I want it repaired by a pro.  The only problem I have doing this is the terribly rough/incompetent delivery service, that can cause even more damage to my engines in shipping than I had before I started.  One of you guys needs to move into the Pittsburgh, Pa area so I can hand deliver my engines when they are in need of repairs.  

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

One of you guys needs to move into the Pittsburgh, Pa area so I can hand deliver my engines when they are in need of repairs.  

What kind of incentives are you offering?

Ill pitch in on this topic.  I work on and fix my post war Lionel stuff.  Take my advice when it comes to the new stuff that is chock full of electronic goodies, send it to GGG or Marty.  Take it from me, if you don't know about electronics you WILL screw something up!  Lol, I know enough about electronics to know I don't know anything about electronics.

PCRR Dave,

Agreed, I would definitely send to a pro if it was over my head,  however, You do not get a repair center within driving distance until I get a train shop within driving distance and with east coast pricing.

Gunrunner,

I agree. The TMCC stuff is almost flawless and there are guys dumping a lot of their collections to get Legacy. I have always been quite happy with DCS and TMCC, and really have no desire to invest in Legacy just quite yet.

JoeG

Guys, I have a decent number of Legacy locomotives.  TMCC is still a great system and fun to run.   It can be hot rodded some with ERR products and Gun Runner can add some more toys to the system.   

John, have you done any more on your IR for the 4 chuffs?  I think that will be a good thing.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

GGG posted:

A few more years and component replacement on a new board will be a thing of the past.

It's close now with the PS/3 board.

So is the new legacy stuff.  Look at the Legacy Lite RailSound board, and the RCMC.  Let alone code on specialty chips.  G

I get to see lots of TMCC boards.  I am seeing trace damage on diesel mother boards more often.  They are getting old.  Never on steam, just diesel.  Lionel still has just about every motherboard you will ever need.  It is a very cheap part to buy.   Myself, I would rather have a repaired (hard wired) board than a new one.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

John, have you done any more on your IR for the 4 chuffs?  I think that will be a good thing.

Marty, I've had a few hand built and I'm using them in upgrades, they're working out great.  I'm going to make some minor board changes and do a production run now that I have some experience with them.  It's a pleasure to do an upgrade with no magnets and switches glued to anything.

The word will get out when I can get them produced.  The place that assembles my boards is pretty busy right now, and I've had my hands full just getting the lighting kits and Super-Chuffers produced.  Maybe the economy is picking up.

Here's a couple of shots of the chuff generator in the Lionel M1A, this is one I'm just finishing up.  I use a fiberglass spacer that's contoured to the motor diameter and bond that to the motor, then bond the board to the spacer.  The sensor is then spaced the correct 1mm from the flywheel tape and soldered in place.  I'm still debating on how to offer this as a kit, you do have to solder to be able to install it.

Joe G,

    I know what you mean about having a decent Train Shop with in driving distance that has east coast pricing, lived in Slidell, La and Killeen, Tx when I was younger, and at that time no computers.  Frank use to send me stuff from the Iron Horse outside of Pittsburgh, Pa.  Course we had Military Vets working in the Post offices back then, not  the criminals the USPS employees today, it only took 3 days to get a package across country back then.  Heck it just took an entire week for a letter  in the US mail to reach Doylestown, Pa from Pittsburgh, Pa recently. I definitely can understand why you want a good Train Shop with decent prices in your local area.  We still have some decent Train Shops in the Pittsburgh, Pa area, it's the high grade Techs we seem to be missing now.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

 Course we had Military Vets working in the Post offices back then, not  the criminals the USPS employees today, it only took 3 days to get a package across country back then.  Heck it just took an entire week for a letter  in the US mail to reach Doylestown, Pa from Pittsburgh, Pa recently.

Getting into a tangent here, but for what it's worth, you may want to write your congressman about this one.  The USPS is one of the only federal programs that the Constitution actually provides for, aka something that tax dollars are supposed to pay for.  Never the less since the early 1980's the USPS has received no tax dollars in funding and depends on profits generated by the sale of products and services to pay it's bills.  

Of course, unlike any other business Congress has full oversight of the USPS and is allowed to make whatever rules they like with out regard for how that cripples the post office compared to other government agencies that can rely on tax dollars, or private businesses that can adjust their policies to be competitive in the market place.  Perhaps the harshest rule in place is that the USPS must per-fund retirement for it's employees.  This pre-funding, that is not required in ANY other private or government agency, costs the USPS about 5.5 Billion dollars a year.  

Myself, I am amazed that I can get something across the country for less than 50 cents.    I don't much care if it takes 3 days or a week.  If I need it tomorrow, I pay the $20 at FedEx.  

JGL