Retailing realities

The "importers" are the ones contracting out the overseas manufacturers so it's on them.

When it goes to the lowest bidder and you don't double check things like paint colors you could be in for problems.

Every other electronic item you buy is made in china. They all work out of the box.

Solutions ?

1. Find a reputable online retailer that will test and or stand behind a new item by offering an exchange.

2. Don't preorder any new stuff. Wait until after it gets delivered to get an idea of potential issues.

3. Don't buy any new trains period. There are plenty of older well made offerings with a few less whizz bang features that will be reliable runners for many years. In addition, a nib older model typically goes for 50% less than the new one.

This is the choice I've made as the mid 2000's trains I purchased when I started my layout have always been trouble free great looking locomotives . Albeit without a few whiz bang features of course.

There's only one game in town. There is, at the very least, some sort of paint error in nearly every offering, and it's not gonna change

Mike and Rick: Thumbs Up!

Mike,

I make it a point to only buy new from a dealer with a good service dept.I think all dealers should be required to have a IMPORTERS trained repair man! We spend our money expecting it to work right out of the box and it does not. The dealer says send it back to the importer, Wrong you made a profit on it you fix or replace it.

The importers would lose quite a few dealers because of this but the remaining ones could ask higher prices and the consumer would  get the better quality they expect.

Gunny

@gunny posted:

Mike,

I make it a point to only buy new from a dealer with a good service dept.I think all dealers should be required to have a IMPORTERS trained repair man! We spend our money expecting it to work right out of the box and it does not. The dealer says send it back to the importer, Wrong you made a profit on it you fix or replace it.

The importers would lose quite a few dealers because of this but the remaining ones could ask higher prices and the consumer would  get the better quality they expect.

Gunny

You'd lose a vast majority of the dealers!  Be careful what you wish for!

John,

     Since we have no dealers in Maine with any inventory or service it would not bother me in the least.

Gunny

RickO, well said.  When you put your name on the box, that item is yours.

@gunny posted:

John,

     Since we have no dealers in Maine with any inventory or service it would not bother me in the least.

Gunny

Kind of a selfish view don't you think?

@gunny posted:

. The dealer says send it back to the importer, Wrong you made a profit on it you fix or replace it.

Gunny

Unless I'm mistaken. It has been mentioned in the past Lionel does not compensate dealers well on warranty repairs.

Lionel stopped offering tech training classes years ago. Where are these "trained techs" supposed to come from?

The dealers represent the manufacturer. They market and sell the product. Lionel should have their backs. Lionel already made a profit when the dealers ordered their stock.

And folks wonder why dealers are closing.

For those that don't have access to a reputable dealer with qualified techs. There are some great train mechanics on this forum.

That's why I spend $500 on the tmcc version of a$1000 legacy locomotive. Then if I have an issue ( which I have yet to have with NOS) Ill have a few bucks left to send it to someone who takes pride in their repairs.

Trainworld and Trainland, one on Long Island and one in Brooklyn (same company) do have repair services which I have utilized over the years and are reasonable. . They have a standard charge for engine repairs (plus parts) and I think they accept stuff shipped. I am fortunate because I can drive to them and I have been quite happy with their services (several engines rehabbed plus a transformer).

They also test anything you buy.

John

@RickO posted:

Unless I'm mistaken. It has been mentioned in the past Lionel does not compensate dealers well on warranty repairs.

Neither Lionel or MTH compensate for warranty repairs, you just get the parts.

You can't blame the worker if management doesn't manage them effectively.  This is true in any industry and especially true in this hobby.  Even with travel restrictions, you have to keep in touch with you labor force constantly to get good quality.  This is true regardless of country of origin.  I'll state the same truth that I did on another similar topic that seems to come up over and over and over.  In my business if my employee makes a mistake and I miss it, I am to blame just as if I made the mistake. 

I live in South Carolina.. No O gauge oriented LHS near me.. Closest is Atlanta area or Charlotte area, each 3 hour drives one way.. Almost all my purchases are from OGR Forum Sponsors, advertisers and other Forum members.. Some things on evilbay, which many times turns out to be these same people.. Not sure what I would do without the expertise shared here on the Forum.. A big thanks to everyone involved!!  Could 'things' be better?? Of course.. In the meantime be thankful for what you have and be part of the solution, NOT part of the problem!!!!!

@gunny posted:

John,

     Since we have no dealers in Maine with any inventory or service it would not bother me in the least.

Gunny

Did you forget about “Norms O Scale”?

Mowingman,

No I did not forget them,They are only open one day a week and carry MTH 2 rail and atlas in O gauge along with some brass. No repair person.

Gunny

It appears that most of the posters are referring to O gauge 3-rail trains and their quality problems.

I am a member of a HO club.  Members are buying trains from Athearn, Bachmann, MTH, BLI, Rapido, Walthers Scale Trains, and many others.  Most of these new HO engines come with DCC, sound, and some have smoke.  They all have accurate paint schemes or the HO rivet counters at the club would not buy them.

There are very few problems with HO engines out of the box at the club.  I have seen member after member bring a new engine to the club, open the box for the first time, put it on the track, program a new DCC number into it, and off it goes running perfectly.  A few members have had some minor issues such as coupler not working.  This can usually be fixed in five minutes at the club.  The rare time an engine does not run, it is returned to the importer for a quick repair or replacement.  

What this tells me is that high quality, reliable trains can be made overseas.  It is done every day.

I believe that the problem with 3-rail O gauge engines and equipment is that it is made in such relatively small quantities that defects aren't caught and that there aren't spares made if something does go wrong with a batch of engines.  Also, 3-rail train manufacturing has it feet half in the toy world and half in the scale world.  Toys aren't expected to last or be reliable and accurate.  There is relatively little competition between 3-rail train manufacturers compared to the many competing manufacturers in the smaller scales so there is less incentive to make a quality product.  There will be even less competition when MTH is gone.

All of this adds up to problems in the 3-rail hobby that is not present in the smaller scales.  Go to any multi-scale train show.  You will see 100 car N scale trains running perfectly on modular layouts and 50 car HO gauge trains doing the same.  NH Joe

It seems you guys just can't help ordering BTO products. Stop it or refuse delivery or it will just keep happening. Never accept shoddy work!!!

Dave

I had my fill of the "stuff" coming from the PRC, with sealed motors and good luck getting repair parts now let alone in the future.  I stick with my old USA made Lionel products when it comes to locomotives and most rolling stock.  They have proven their durablity over the many years and one can get pretty much any part that you need to keep one running well beyond the next generation or two.   I am blessed with several hobby shops here in Indiana including Mr Muffins Trains.  The one remaining non chain hobby shop in Indianapolis survives on 2nd hand estate trains in many scales and does quite the booming business with older Lionel, and stuff.  He has had quite a bit of AF but not many Flyer guys active around here it seems, most are 3 rail or smaller scale modelers.  AD

I have said many times, stop buying products that are built to order. If you want one just wait till it is delivered and then look at it and test run it before you lay down your money. If it is ok, pay for it if not ok don't take delivery.

Maybe the importers will get a clue when pallets of products start backing up in the warehouse. I doubt it but if you keep buying inferior product then things will never change.

Dave

@david1 posted:

I have said many times, stop buying products that are built to order. If you want one just wait till it is delivered and then look at it and test run it before you lay down your money. If it is ok, pay for it if not ok don't take delivery.

Maybe the importers will get a clue when pallets of products start backing up in the warehouse. I doubt it but if you keep buying inferior product then things will never change.

Dave

OK- where do I find them in stock, ready to sell?? I live in OH, not NY, IN, NJ or PA??

The point is: most retailers (local hobby shops) are pretty well out out of the game except for rolling stock, accessories, track and the like.  My LHS here said he asked his distributor five years ago- "How many hobby shops exist in the USA? "  the answer- 5 years ago- was 5000.  He asked again, earlier in 2020- they would not answer the question.

If you have to order out of state find a dealer that will inspect it, test run it  to make sure it is what was advertised. If they will not do it then find another dealer.

Dave

@david1 posted:

I have said many times, stop buying products that are built to order.

Assuming the model isn't cancelled due to lack of pre-orders.

If you want one just wait till it is delivered and then look at it and test run it before you lay down your money. If it is ok, pay for it if not ok don't take delivery.

Assuming your LHS (if you have one,) pre-orders one for store stock.

Maybe the importers will get a clue when pallets of products start backing up in the warehouse. I doubt it but if you keep buying inferior product then things will never change.

Ah yes... The mythical pallets full of unsold or returned stock.  The recent painting errors or product failures haven't seemed to have any significant effect on orders.

Rusty

Dave

Live in the western suburbs of Chicago and lucky to have a LHS, America’s Best Trains, that is a Lionel dealer and does repair on site.  I buy new from them, and when I go in to pick something up, i ask them to test it they do and that way I know it works before I take it home.  Actually talked to them today, have at least two engines ready for me to pick up that I had ordered.

@New Haven Joe posted:

It appears that most of the posters are referring to O gauge 3-rail trains and their quality problems.

I am a member of a HO club.  Members are buying trains from Athearn, Bachmann, MTH, BLI, Rapido, Walthers Scale Trains, and many others.  

All of this adds up to problems in the 3-rail hobby that is not present in the smaller scales.  

I wouldn’t say it’s not present. I recently spent well over $300 on a pair of Athearn Genesis GP38-2’s, bought from two different retailers, and both have bad motors.  They both sound awful even after proper lubrication and one randomly speeds up and slows down- all DC control, no decoders.  Also got a pair of Scale Trains SD40-2’s, one unit has a bad-fitting truck side frame that sticks out at an angle.  Unacceptable for what that stuff costs, and sadly you can’t “see before you buy” anymore because of the pre-order stupidity.  I know I won’t do it again.

Rusty,

Keep buying inferior product and taking the lose when the engine you ordered is not what you ordered. I refuse to buy items that have issues like mechanical issues, paint issues or just poor quality.

One day thier poor quality will catch up to them and then they will be wondering where all the customers went.

Dave

@Tony H posted:

Live in the western suburbs of Chicago and lucky to have a LHS, America’s Best Trains, that is a Lionel dealer and does repair on site.  I buy new from them, and when I go in to pick something up, i ask them to test it they do and that way I know it works before I take it home.  

I too do business with Americas Best as my local hobby shop, and to put a point on what you said, I have not had one single issue with any purchase that was made through Americas Best. I CAN NOT say the same for the rest of my purchases including some of the sponsors of this forum.

I will take this a step further and say most, not all, of the problems with the engines are self inflected by the customers. Meaning, I have noticed on many occasions customers who bring a "dead" engine to the store only to have it operate perfectly fine on the test track. I often wonder how many of the problems listed here are really a manufacturer issue and how many are self inflicted issues by owners who just have not taken the time to read the manual...

I understand not everyone has a local hobby shop, but for those who do, I suspect you will get better service if you work through them as loyal customer. Tony as Americas Best often works with loyal customers to match or best mail order pricing so that is hardly an issue, plus he actually stocks and DISPLAYS what he sells... kinda neat to have a hobby shop actually have customer service as well.

I know some people have a problem with a well stocked store and will probably make a post after me that America Best is too "cluttered", but honestly, who would even make a comment that a store has too much inventory? We will find out soon though.

Support your local hobby shop if you have one.

Charlie

@POTRZBE posted:

RickO, well said.  When you put your name on the box, that item is yours.

Much easier said than done, my friend.  One has only to refer to the musings of some of our importers to understand that once the contract is signed, the importer is no longer steering the rocket in which they ride.

When choosing a supplier, businesses tend to choose one of the following:

1. A trusted supplier, someone with whom you have a mutually beneficial relationship, someone who watches your back while you watch theirs.
2. A vendor or jobber, someone who does the minimum to get paid.  The Chinese are, IMO, the epitome of this.  They do a specific job, such as turn out a locomotive, and then they are done.  Spare parts?  Maybe.  Quality control?  If you didn't catch the mistake early, sorry.  If something cropped up that you didn't know about or catch, tough ****.

And so here we are.

George

@mlavender480 posted:

I wouldn’t say it’s not present.

@New Haven Joe posted:

All of this adds up to problems in the 3-rail hobby that is not present in the smaller scales.  

Yea, I'm not so sure I believe this statement either Mike. My limited experience with the two HO clubs in the Chicago area, (Elmhurst and Lombard) is that there are issues, both mechanical, electrical and deco. I suspect that DCC and the lack of understanding is also a big part of the problem… but that is an issue for another time.

However, listen to some of the Model Railroading Podcasts’ and you will quickly hear of the problems that the other scales have… including comments by some of the manufactures themselves! If the manufactures are pointing out issues, you know there is a problem.

Listen, at this point I really don’t expect that we will get 100% perfect products… (we actually never have 100% perfect anyway) but what I do care about is how are you (Mr. Manufacture) going to fix the problem.

I think we have been spoiled over the last 100 years or so that Lionel was a relatively simple product that had many parts in stock for repairs long after any reasonable person should have expected.

The products now are way more sophisticated, not user repairable with hammer and screwdriver and with profit margins that are relatively slim, it is harder and harder to keep the same level of service we had enjoyed up until the late 90’s.

Charlie

@Charlie posted:

I think we have been spoiled over the last 100 years or so that Lionel was a relatively simple product that had many parts in stock for repairs long after any reasonable person should have expected.

Charlie

We also had products that were not prototypical and most folks didn't care.  A lot of the parts were interchangeable because they weren't prototypical.  A lot of the same trucks, motors and e units.  Every steam engine had an air whistle and every diesel had a horn, period.  No specialty sounds to hat particular locomotive.

I agree Charlie the demand of prototypical and advanced features are part of the problem.

There are some MTH authorized service centers that sell used locos on ebay. They fix them, replace the batteries, test them (lights smoke, sound, running). I've been buying locomotives from them. So far, the 3 I bought have been flawless. Have bought 2 lionel locos from people that break out sets. No issues so far with those either.

I only buy from people that accept returns, which ebay enforces.

Limits my selection, but have been happy so far.

@david1 posted:

Rusty,

Keep buying inferior product and taking the lose when the engine you ordered is not what you ordered. I refuse to buy items that have issues like mechanical issues, paint issues or just poor quality.

One day thier poor quality will catch up to them and then they will be wondering where all the customers went.

Dave

Where these customers in general going to go?  MTH: Gone soon.  K-Line: Gone.  Weaver: Gone.  3rd Rail?  Possibly, but 3rd Rail isn't offering the variety that Lionel does, plus the delay (or cancellation) can be years between pre-ordering and production due to the lack of pre-orders.

Sure, there are those that say they're sticking with Postwar to avoid all the quality issues, and that fine.  Unless you happen to want the likes of a Big Boy, T1, or SD70.

I'm not denying mechanical, electronic or decoration issues aren't a problem, but as I said before if there are not enough pre-orders, the model gets cancelled.  BTO is not a system that I care for, but it is the reality of model railroading these days, even in the other scales.

I watched as three American Flyer Y3's went up in smoke on the test track at my LHS.  I was ready to kiss my hopes for a Flyer Y3 goodbye when the 4th one was fine.  That's the one I bought.  That was also the first, last and only time my LHS ordered American Flyer for store stock.  He also has to get his Lionel stock from a distributor, another link in the ordering chain.  If one want's Flyer, it's pre-order or hope there's a spare one in the pipeline somewhere.  Or take your chances with one of the big internet houses.

I've also had a couple of items with cosmetic flaws, as in missing part of the decorations.  My LHS returned them to Lionel and they eventually came back corrected, once the parts caught up with the distribution.

Rusty

There were a LOT of great Lionel Legacies from 2000 on.  In a lot of ways, I have found them to be better, plus, "used" you let the other guy work through all the issues.  Model trains are sort of like buying a used Corvette-  the product has been cared for to the extreme, loved more than they are used (most get driven less than 10k miles a year)  and a good buy.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You'd lose a vast majority of the dealers!  Be careful what you wish for!

I’m all for the little guy, and I like visiting local shops, and I try to support them, or forum sponsors...

However, in a BTO purchase model, one where if something is broken it has to be shipped back to the importer, what exact service is the LHS providing for the retail markup?

@Mike Wyatt posted:

There were a LOT of great Lionel Legacies from 2000 on.  In a lot of ways, I have found them to be better, plus, "used" you let the other guy work through all the issues.  Model trains are sort of like buying a used Corvette-  the product has been cared for to the extreme, loved more than they are used (most get driven less than 10k miles a year)  and a good buy.

Or a 911 Porsche....

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Neither Lionel or MTH compensate for warranty repairs, you just get the parts.

Why does anyone bother selling their products then? Seems to me to be a pretty one-sided relationship.

@artfull dodger posted:

I had my fill of the "stuff" coming from the PRC, with sealed motors and good luck getting repair parts now let alone in the future.

“Sealed motors” are not part of the quality problem and neither are “China drives”.  

There are two major categories of problems as I see it.  Model accuracy (paint, sound) and shipping damage.  That probably covers 99% of new purchase problems.  

Sound set issues (chuff rate, whistle, articulated sounds) are fully in the control of the importer.  What’s more, they could put it in the hands of the customer, but some choose not to.  The other thing they can control is packaging.  I think the difference we see between HO/N and O with damage is simply weight.  They don’t build life sized bridges out of plastic or die-cast metal for good reason.  The strength/weight ratio gets worse with size, and there is a considerable amount more weight with O scale models, especially engines, as volume increases with the cube of distance.  The packaging needs to restrict the movement of the contents so that the weight of the loco doesn’t press on fragile details or non load bearing parts.

Paint accuracy is a shared problem.  Its on the importer to design accurate paint schemes and colors, but the factory has to be watched closely.

I stick with my old USA made Lionel products when it comes to locomotives and most rolling stock.  They have proven their durablity over the many years and one can get pretty much any part that you need to keep one running well beyond the next generation or two.  

This is a fallacy of survivorship bias.  Older model trains can and do still run well, but there is no shortage of broken trains at York.  I’d go as far as to say they outnumber the working ones.  Its these endless piles of scavenged parts that allow us to repair pre and postwar trains.  Their scarcity is why some are so valuable.  Additionally they aren’t particularly accurate nor are they well detailed leaving less things to break.

Eventually those parts supplies will dry up and more and more old trains will be relegated to the shelf.

Many things purchased today, in their instructions state clearly, "Do not return to store, contact..."  There is only one hobby shop in this area, and they have no repair shop, but they do a great job of supporitng the RC side of the biz along with the train and model builder folks.  In the downturn in 2008, they sold just about every model they had, some on the shelves so long the sun had faded the boxes.  There was some similar movement in the recent unpleasantries, but with so many sheeple living in fear of going outside, walk in traffic was minimal.  They do a great online business though.  There are no repair shops here or nearby, and finding ones that can repair the electronics of the modern engines makes it even harder.  I have a small repair business, and it is easier to find parts for, and repair electronics made from the 1930's to the mid 70's because so many things basically used the same components.  ALL modern electronics are designed with built in obsolescence, and I am repairing units now that are still being manufactured and  sold in stores, that already the manufacturers no longer support repair service,  or parts for.  The only place to find components that are not in the parts houses, Mouser, DigiKey, Newark, etc., or from specialty companies that find, check, certify and resell components, used or unsold stock,  is on Epay and they usually come from China.  Your MTH and Lionel complicated locos are doomed.  In the near future, nobody will be running a current production engine around the track like you do a 1950's Lionel or Marx now, unless a cottage industry that creates substitute electronic packages for you engine is around.

No, N scale is not just the weight. They have manufacturing problems too, but their customer service is way better.

Before Life-Like was bought by Walthers I bought one of their 2-8-8-2 Mallets. A pin on the drive rods fell out. Reinserted it after making sure everything was quartered. Happened again in 5 minutes. Gave it one more try. Noticed it happened in reverse.

Contacted LL and they asked for the serial # OVER THE PHONE. Gave it to the service tech and he told me right then I got one from a bad batch. Hole for the pin was too large. He gave me an RA # over the phone and told me to send it to them UPS, bill to receiver. While it was still on the way to them, they sent me a new one (could tell from the shipping date. I think they shipped it as soon as they got a tracking number for the return).

Now it turned out the replacement had a totally different problem. Sent it to them for a repair after calling them and they had it fixed and out the door in 3 days. Two problems, 2 locomotives, 2 weeks TOTAL time to resolution.

I had to deal with Bachmann customer service 3 times over 20 years. Nothing but good to excellent service each time. They even replaced a 10 year old locomotive under their old lifetime warranty program they had, as soon as they got the old one and checked it out.

They all will have problems, how they handle them is just as important.

I've always wondered, after coming back to O scale. . . How many of these locomotive electronics issues would have been avoided if they'd built in a sturdy over voltage circuit protection in the locomotive electronics, instead of expecting the customers to do it. If they'd take responsibility in the engineering phase, there wouldn't be so many topics on how to protect your electronics via TVS diodes and other devices on this site.

And BTW, as mentioned in an earlier post, when the retailers are reluctant to carry stock because of failures, that's a HUGE problem.

@CALNNC posted:

Your MTH and Lionel complicated locos are doomed.  In the near future, nobody will be running a current production engine around the track like you do a 1950's Lionel or Marx now, unless a cottage industry that creates substitute electronic packages for you engine is around.

This is so not true.  Fear mongering. Things like 3-D printing and commodity IoT electronics (Arduino, Raspberry Pi, etc.) have swung things in favor of the DIY hobbiest.

I am not sure I get what some expect from dealers, who are basically simply a sales arm of the company.  Most electronics are sold via dealers and retailers, any virtually none of them open boxes and test electronics, nor do they do on site repairs.  Some may offer an exchange for an out of box failure, but almost all electronics with issues need to be returned under warranty to the factory authorized repair center.

The days of component level parts availability for consumer electronics is virtually gone, and in many cases for industrial electronics as well.  While some may long for the days of being able to solder in replacement resistors and capacitors to repair almost anything, surface mount components, and micros have long made that impractical.

Everyone loves the continued reduced prices for the increase capabilities that modern electronics bring - and before some one gets off on the price of a new engine, many times on this forum it has been shown the equivalent cost of a pre or post war engine at todays money is in line or more than what we pay.

Everything is a trade off, and by in large my experience has been most products we get are of good quality, the performance is very good, and the detail is in some cases outstanding. I know that my ability to repair a defective PC board in an engine in most cases is about the same as my ability to repair my iphone - almost none.  It comes with the territory.  If the majority of the market wanted to still buy trains akin to buggy whips, then no one would be making trains using modern electronics.

Sometimes these conversations feels a bit like this