Retailing realities

@rplst8 posted:

This is so not true.  Fear mongering. Things like 3-D printing and commodity IoT electronics (Arduino, Raspberry Pi, etc.) have swung things in favor of the DIY hobbiest.

Yup. The mechanicals of modern trains are probably more robust than Postwar stuff, and will run for hours and hours with just some grease and oil. No replacing brushes or finicky E-units to adjust. I wouldn't worry about the mechanicals.

DCS or TMCC boards die/are not available any more? Convert to DCC or whatever the current standard is. The electronics failing don't make the locomotive garbage. Upgrade to new stuff and continue running. Done.   

Why are manufacturers called "importers"? I've never heard Dodge referred to as an importer of cars that are made in Mexico. To me, it is giving a pass to companies that choose to have their stuff made overseas and then accepting that they are at the mercy of the company they import from.

@Lou1985 posted:

Yup. The mechanicals of modern trains are probably more robust than Postwar stuff, and will run for hours and hours with just some grease and oil. No replacing brushes or finicky E-units to adjust. I wouldn't worry about the mechanicals.

DCS or TMCC boards die/are not available any more? Convert to DCC or whatever the current standard is. The electronics failing don't make the locomotive garbage. Upgrade to new stuff and continue running. Done.   

Lou, I think you're onto something here, perhaps the inevitable.

How much more innovation does O Gauge really need when it comes to motive power?  I'm 55 and a traditional/semi-scale guy with no real intention of upgrading to 1:48 scale and its associated costs. Still, I've got 20+ engines, 5 PW conventional and 15 modern PS3 or early TMCC.  I'm content with their features and appearance and doubt I'll ever change them out just because something like a controllable bell or whistle steam comes out. All I really need is a source for replacement electronics and the occasional spare part for my clumsiness.

If the MTH spin-off tech company and Third Rail's ERR division survive,, I figure I'm covered 'til my kids put me in a wooden box. And, like you said, if they don't some other standard like DCC or bluerail seem likely to be around as a worst case scenario.

I've got plenty of rolling stock and even if all the manufacturers ceased operations tomorrow, I figure there will be enough on the secondary market for the rest of my life was well.

@GVDobler posted:

Why are manufacturers called "importers"? I've never heard Dodge referred to as an importer of cars that are made in Mexico. To me, it is giving a pass to companies that choose to have their stuff made overseas and then accepting that they are at the mercy of the company they import from.

Because that is exactly what they are. If your having a product made overseas and you sell it in the USA your a importer.

IF Dodge makes thier vehicles in Mexico and sell them here they are imported. So what would you call Dodge?

Dave

If the number of brick & mortar retail outlets shrinks to the point where the big e-tailers represent the vast majority of the market, could/would Lionel do away with their distributor network?

To me the distributor seems like an unnecessary layer anyway.  Why not just sell wholesale direct to the big Internet retailers?  Seems like a distributor would be unnecessary if there were only say 25 big dealers throughout the land who did most of their business on the web.

Or maybe in twenty years Lionel won't need dealers either.  Just sell direct on the web.

Just spitballin'

Let us look at another hobby with big ticket items:  ham radio.  The big four radio importers would be out of business if they had failure rates we are hearing with our model trains.  And some of these rigs do more things with higher current levels than our trains....

@MikeH posted:

If the number of brick & mortar retail outlets shrinks to the point where the big e-tailers represent the vast majority of the market, could/would Lionel do away with their distributor network?

To me the distributor seems like an unnecessary layer anyway.  Why not just sell wholesale direct to the big Internet retailers?  Seems like a distributor would be unnecessary if there were only say 25 big dealers throughout the land who did most of their business on the web.

Or maybe in twenty years Lionel won't need dealers either.  Just sell direct on the web.

Just spitballin'

The small LHS is a throwback. My favorite LHS closed last year around this time following the passing of the owner. His heirs apparently didn't want to run the business which was, in my estimation, a lifestyle business, not a huge profit generator. Probably a labor of love. I miss the place already for the nostalgia and remembrance of trips there with my father and grandfather, but the reality is that it wasn't very appealing to younger generations.

We seem to be seeing small LHSes closing up routinely and few new ones are opening. Same trend in other industries. I feel badly about that trend, but the business owners are telling us about the economics of their business with their feet.

I hate drawing conclusions about an entire industry based on my own experience, but it seems to me that service and repair techs and parts suppliers will be in high demand for the next 10-20 years while new product re/e-tailers will continue to consolidate. Seems like the market is saturated with product, especially in the traditional/semi-scale space. How many more 6464 box cars and 6462 gondolas does the world really need, especially with Menards entering that market with fantastic prices.

@david1 posted:

Because that is exactly what they are. If your having a product made overseas and you sell it in the USA your a importer.

IF Dodge makes thier vehicles in Mexico and sell them here they are imported. So what would you call Dodge?

Dave

Exactly. 

There was a time on this forum we used to talk about how fun our hobby was and how much we enjoyed regardless of what we collect or operate.  Now it's down to useless threads like this.  If I want to go the BTO route and stick it on a wall, why should anyone care?  If I decide that I want a complete original C9  American Flyer wide gauge operating layout, why should anyone care?  That's why they call it a hobby.

Keep the banter going.  Where is the popcorn emoji when we need it most.  

@david1 posted:

Because that is exactly what they are. If your having a product made overseas and you sell it in the USA your a importer.

IF Dodge makes thier vehicles in Mexico and sell them here they are imported. So what would you call Dodge?

Dave

I think there is some distinction here to be made.  In most cases throughout the automobile industry, the plants in Mexico are owned by other divisions in the parent company of Dodge (formerly Chrysler Corporation, then DaimlerChrysler, then Cerberus Capital Management, and now FCA).  In the case of model manufacturers, and really anything made in China, I don't think any of the American companies own the factories in China.  Sort of like how Apple contracts with Foxconn for their iPhones.

Maybe it's all a grey area and it could be hard to distinguish differences.  But I doubt Lionel or Atlas for example has a financial stake in the factories overseas, while Dodge and other US automobile companies do have a financial stake in the factories in Mexico.

@GG1 4877 posted:

There was a time on this forum we used to talk about how fun our hobby was and how much we enjoyed regardless of what we collect or operate.  Now it's down to useless threads like this.

I think these threads are an ongoing theme because the constant barrage of broken stuff that people pay $1000+ for is severely impacting the fun people are having.

If I want to go the BTO route and stick it on a wall, why should anyone care?  If I decide that I want a complete original C9  American Flyer wide gauge operating layout, why should anyone care?  That's why they call it a hobby.

Who has said you can't do either?

I would simply state that I have in the range of 40+ 3rd Rail locomotives and have never had a failure.  My MTH pre-orders, though small compared to my MTH second hand equipment has never had a failure.  My Lionel, though by far the smallest portion of my collection has never had a failure either.

Any failures I have experienced since coming to O scale have be operator failures.

GG1 4877.  All good points!

Long live the Pennsylvania Railroad and the GG1!

I lament the passing of the LHS's.  I so miss the experience and laugh when people say such things as 'the people in states like NJ... are so lucky to have local LHS's'.  I live in northwestern NJ and I don't have any near me.

I know I've said all this before.  I'm like the 'No Nukes' guy who shows up at every protest regardless of what it's about!

It's definitely all relative, Frank.  When I look at a map and see the furthest corner of NW NJ is less than 2 hour drive to Trainworld (for instance), I think that's pretty good!  If I drove two hours out of St. Louis, I'd be in a corn field.

I got ya.  I'm currently in Montana visiting a friend.  I didn't dare pose the question here asking about any LHS's to visit in the Helena area!

When I first got into this hobby (2006?) I didn't know about the whole catalog/pre-order way of doing things.  I would visit the LHS (The Hobby Shop in Aberdeen, NJ) and never know what I would find.  I'd practically be in there once a week buying something I hadn't seen before.  Glorious times for me that, unfortunately, I don't see ever coming back.  That's what I mostly lament about this hobby.

How many of us get excited the first day or two when a catalog comes out, orders what we want, wait a few months/years, finally have the item arrive, and let it sit in the unopened box. 

@GG1 4877 posted:

I would simply state that I have in the range of 40+ 3rd Rail locomotives and have never had a failure.  My MTH pre-orders, though small compared to my MTH second hand equipment has never had a failure.  My Lionel, though by far the smallest portion of my collection has never had a failure either.

Any failures I have experienced since coming to O scale have be operator failures.

Your experience is anecdotal.  There have been many threads with photo and video proof of poor quality.  And comparing 3rd Rail to Lionel is hardly fair.

I understand that there are failures out of the box and that poor quality control does happen in this market space.  However, the likely hood of someone complaining is much more likely than someone who is pleased with the final product.  I suspect this forum skews negative because of that.  I've been on here now for a long time and that has always been the case.

Granted there have been a some inexcusable errors such as wild color mismatches, major misspellings, shipping boxes that do not properly protect the product, failures out of the box, etc.  However it falls back on the manufacturer who did not properly QC the product, provide the correct information, do the proper research before the project was in production, or testing every locomotive before it leaves the warehouse for delivery to a customer.

@GG1 4877 posted:

There was a time on this forum we used to talk about how fun our hobby was and how much we enjoyed regardless of what we collect or operate.  Now it's down to useless threads like this.....

Keep the banter going.  Where is the popcorn emoji when we need it most.  

@Mike Wyatt From one fellow NE Ohioan to another, this was not a useless thread.  I think part of this hobby should be us working together to identify solutions to some new, largely economic problems. LHS closures and now MTH's closure aren't fun, no doubt, but they've impacted us. If I needed track, a part, or supply, I headed over to the Trading Post. That is, until a year ago. Thanks for bringing up the topic despite some hooting it as "useless."

@raising4daughters posted:

@Mike Wyatt From one fellow NE Ohioan to another, this was not a useless thread.  I think part of this hobby should be us working together to identify solutions to some new, largely economic problems. LHS closures and now MTH's closure aren't fun, no doubt, but they've impacted us. If I needed track, a part, or supply, I headed over to the Trading Post. That is, until a year ago. Thanks for bringing up the topic despite some hooting it as "useless."

I like the positive approach you suggest and wholly support that.  If the thread had more posts along the lines you mention, I would have a completely different attitude.  I mean no disrespect to the OP or anyone for that matter.  It's the plethora of typical comments about blaming the Chinese worker or BTO as the reason for the issues we are seeing today that are patently false and quite old by now.  Without either of those we wouldn't have an opportunity to find trains that have never been done in O scale.

I too miss going to an LHS.  Arizona hasn't had a true LHS in several years.  I was a weekly regular at an old shop called "An Affair with Trains" on the "bad" side of town in a strip complex with a tattoo shop, dive bar, smoke shop, and a few other "interesting" tenants.  It was full of both new and old trains.  This was pre-21st century during my HO and N days, but this shop still had original Kits from the era of Red Ball, Varney, and yellow box Athearn for sale through the late 90's mixed in with the newer items along with really cool consignment items.  You just never knew what you would find.  Talking trains with others was always fun.  Sadly, that is now a fond memory as the world is changing quicker than we can keep up.

To your point, how can we as O gauge train enthusiasts work to ensure a future in our hobby?  There is a lot of product on the secondary market begging for a good home to be upgraded, kit-bashed, repaired, and put back into service.  That is an opportunity to learn a whole new set of skills as well.  While the new market will continue to shrink, there will be more competition among the remaining manufacturers to do better work.  I am all for demanding quality product, I have just been arguing that quality starts and ends with the manufacturer.  We can do our own quality control as well as to where we decide to spend our dollars on a hobby we are all passionate about.