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If you were one of the engineers that ran the 765 from scranton to portland, could you give me your point of view from the engineer's seat what it was like to run one of the most steepest grade's in pennsylvania feet per mile on the old DL&W main line. Did the 765 slip anywhere because of the grade, how hard was the 765 working, how much sand did you drop to keep traction, was it hard to keep the water level in the boiler, what was max speed you were able to run, given the length of your train, the DL&W would of put a headend helper on at east stroudsburg for the climb to scranton even if it was a 4-8-4 in front from hoboken. what were your thoughts about 765 making the same climb without a headend helper. (now I understand they did that to keep the schedule and not to block the main line back then)

1. from scranton east to portland-

2. from portland back to scranton-  

Last edited by Rich Melvin
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While I'm not answering for Rich, I will answer your questions. 

We face operating challenges everywhere we go.  Operating out of Scranton had many operating challenges although I won't go into all of them.

On Saturday, someone had greased the rails at both portals of Nay Aug tunnel.  Rich had his hands full because of this.  The train stalled (no fault of Rich).  A reverse move was made to sand the rail and make another try at the grade.  With much finesse, Rich got the train up the hill. 

In contrast, on Monday I ran the eastbound trip without any grease on the rail and experienced nothing out of the ordinary.  I had what is called a quarter slip passing by the downtown area.  The engine had a full wheel slip before reaching the tunnel. 

Once clear of the slow order by the tunnel, we worked up to track speed quickly.  I had a few more wheel slips before Moscow but none that caused a great loss of speed.  At no time did I ever need to have the throttle to the roof. 

The downhill run was easy, 8 pounds of air and 25-30 pounds of steam in the cylinders. 

In short, our Lima product made quick work of the Poconos.

765 is a magnificent machine.  I was able to go in the cab on Sunday at about Noon.  Your staff and the Fort Wayne should be very proud of her.  I was  very much impressed at how large a machine 765 is.  She felt alive while sitting in the cab.  Thank you for bringing her to Scranton.  Hope to see her more in the future and take a ride behind her .

 

By greasing the rail , do you mean that someone did that on purpose?  

 

Glenn

Last edited by GlennRJr

Pete, I just saw this thread. I'm still on the road and won't be home until tonight. When I have a moment to write something about the run from my perspective, I will.

 

In the 2nd post in this thread, Chris gives a good summary of the runs. Not the toughest piece of railroad we've ever run, but you can certainly see why Conrail didn't want the Pocono Main! Too many grades!

Pete, sorry it took so long. Here we go...

 


 

 

September 5, 2015. 10:40 am. Scranton, Pennsylvania. I'm sitting in the right-hand seat of steam locomotive NKP 765, waiting for the highball from the conductor. We're spotted at the Steamtown passenger station in Scranton. We're running a trip out of Steamtown on the Delaware Lackawanna Railroad, the former DL&W Pocono Main. Right out of the station we've got almost 20 miles of 1.4% grade to climb, but with only 13 cars in the train, the grade should not be all that tough. Sitting there at the station, I can see the grade start uphill right in front of me.

 

765's Chief Mechanical Officer Steve Winicker is firing this morning. Knowing that we have to work hard right from the start, he's used the shovel to lay a nice heel in the fire along the sides and in the back corners. A nice “horseshoe” shaped fire, thicker around the sides than in the middle. Once underway, the stoker will handle the coal. The water glass is 2/3 full and the steam is sitting at 245 psi, just sizzling at the pops. He's ready.

 

The radio crackles to life with the word from the conductor. Everyone's on board...highball east! I drop the power reverse all the way forward, kick off the train brakes and whistle off. I open the throttle a little and ease off the engine brake. Almost effortlessly, the 765 eases the train into motion.

 

It's a bright, sunny morning, and it's already pretty warm. In this kind of weather, slippery rail conditions are rare, but I want to be sure. Steamtown Pilot Engineer Rob Straley tells me we've got a couple of miles of a 10 mph slow order ahead of us before we can accelerate up to track speed of 30 mph. I work the 765 pretty hard accelerating up to 10 mph, so I can feel out the rail conditions. It feels good. Other than a little slip on a grade crossing, the 765 is holding the rail very well, even when working 200 psi in the cylinders, which is a fairly heavy throttle.

 

Still within the slow order, the 765 marches up the grade at a steady 10 mph. We come around a curve and ahead of us is Nay Aug Tunnel. It's not a very long tunnel and it used to be double-tracked, so there's a lot of room in it. It won't be a big deal getting through. This ought to be easy.

 

About 4 car lengths from the tunnel, the drivers let go with a violent slip! What the...? Where did that come from? I slam the throttle shut, hit the sanders and carefully open the throttle again. And the 765 slips again! And again! Just a few seconds earlier I had been working 200 psi in the cylinders and she was holding the rail just fine. Now, with only 50 psi in the cylinders, the 765 is slipping! That can mean only one thing – GREASE on the rails!

 

The slips caused us to lose speed and we enter the tunnel at 5 mph. Still using heavy sand, the 765 is gripping the rail well inside the tunnel. I got a couple of those lost miles per hour back going through the tunnel. I figured we had weathered the storm would be OK now. I was wrong.

 

Just as we exit the tunnel, the 765 slips again. And once again it is painfully apparent that someone has greased the rails here, too! The rails are so slippery that even with emergency sand and careful manipulation of the throttle, I can't keep the train moving. We stall!

 

I quickly set the engine brake and put a light set on the train brakes to keep us from sliding backwards. After waiting a moment to allow everything to settle down, I release the train brakes and attempt to get the train moving again. The whole train is now stopped on a 1.4% grade. I know it is going to take about 150 psi in the cylinders to get the train moving. The sand is still on. I open the throttle a little and ease off the engine brake. The 765 doesn't move. I gently ease the throttle open a couple more notches and the 765 moves a few inches...and slips. I slam the throttle shut and put the engine brake back on full. I find that the engine brake will hold the train by itself. That's good. It will make things a bit easier and keep the slack stretched.

 

Once again I try to get the train moving by opening the throttle and easing off the engine brake. And once again the 765 moves a few inches and slips...with only 100 psi in the cylinders! I try several more times, using every trick in the book to get the train moving, but it is a futile effort. The rails are just too slippery and I cannot get enough momentum to get past the greased section of rail. We have no choice. We have to back up and get a run at it.

 

The Pilot Engineer calls the DL dispatcher and gets permission to make a reverse move. The conductor hustles to the rear of the train to watch the shove. When all is ready, I ease off the engine brake and we start rolling backwards, back down the hill. I put an 8 pound set on the train and add a little engine brake too, to try and keep the slack stretched as we roll slowly backwards. I don't want slack action back in the train to knock people down.

 

I let the train roll down the hill until we are about 150 yards from the entrance to the tunnel, sanding in reverse all the way. I bring the train to a gentle stop. We are stopped on sand. Once again the 765 and I are going to do battle with this slippery, greasy rail. I am counting on the fact that I've now sanded all the way through the tunnel to provide enough grip for us to get enough momentum to get past the greased rail east of the tunnel that we have not run over yet.

 

OK...here we go. Reverse all the way down in the corner. Sand on full forward. Throttle open. Brakes off. We start to move. WHAM! The first big exhaust blast is welcome music to my ears. The 765 is holding the rail! The second exhaust blast hits, followed quickly by a third, and a fourth...we are moving. I have the throttle open pretty far, but not all the way. At this slow speed with a heavy throttle, a slip will be violent and quick. I have to be ready for that. But we get into the tunnel and she doesn't slip. All right!

 

The 765 is really digging in now, accelerating through the tunnel. We come out the other side of the tunnel at 9 mph and the 765 is working hard. But I know I've got a few more feet of greased rail that we have not run over yet. And I just KNOW she is going to slip again when we hit that spot. About 10 feet past the point where we stalled, sure enough, the 765 slips again. I slam the throttle shut and attempt to recover from the slip. I'm a little too quick on the throttle and 765 gets into a secondary slip. I have to shut off and recover a second time. By the time I recover from the secondary slip, were almost stopped again! But when I widen out on the throttle after the secondary slip, she holds the rail! We are past the grease!

 

Carefully I ease the throttle open a little more...no slip. A little more...she's still holding the rail! A little more...and finally, as we get up to about 10 mph, I have it on the roof. We're past the 10 mph speed restriction now, so I can keep going with her wide open. We slip once more on a switch, but this was a “normal” slip and the recovery is quick and solid. The 765 is really working now, rocking slightly back and forth in step with the power strokes from the cylinders. There's a grade crossing coming up. I use my right hand to blow the whistle. My left hand is still hanging on to the throttle...just in case. Over the crossing and no slip. I think we're OK now. We're on the way up the hill and accelerating nicely back to track speed. Whew! That was tough...on me and the 765.

 

You can see that secondary slip and the recovery in this video..

 

That narrative may be a good read and an interesting story for many of you, but the whole incident made me angry. The person who greased those rails has no idea how dangerous it is. The 765 could have been seriously damaged in a violent slip. If I had not been able to get the train moving again on our second attempt, the excursion would have been delayed for several hours while the DL scrambled get a diesel up on the mountain to help us out of that mess. Some people familiar with the railroad said that it was likely not grease on the rails but just condensation from the tunnel. I don't think so. Wet rail is one thing, greased rails behave altogether differently. These rails were greased. 765 had no trouble at all getting through that same spot at the tunnel on the Monday trip.

 

What can we learn from this incident? Quite honestly, I have never seen a group of more self-destructive people than railfans. You profess to love the railroading industry and steam locomotives, yet you know almost nothing about either and make no effort to learn. You trespass, you climb up on signals and standing freight cars to get the “perfect” shot, you stand in the gauge as the train approaches, you curse and swear at innocent people who “ruin” your shots, you grease the rails...you get the idea. You don't realize that in behaving like that you have the potential to destroy the very thing you claim to love so much! When the powers that be at the railroads decide that the problems you are causing are no longer worth the hassle, it's over. The main line steam excursion industry comes to a screaming halt.

 

If you truly enjoy seeing steam locomotives running on the main line, some of you need to take a serious look at yourselves. Are you one of the irresponsible railfans like the ones who greased these rails? Or can you take a more responsible view of your hobby and actively discourage this kind of blatantly stupid behavior?

 

The future of your hobby is in your hands...

 

 

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765 On Her Knees
Last edited by Rich Melvin

I've said it before...we're not the top of the food chain anymore. The stupid people have always been with us...but they seem to be ever increasing.these morons that have been doing this are bound and determined to ruin it for the rest of us.

Thankfully, The FWRHS has such trained professionals such as yourself, and no damage was done to the 765.

hi rich,

 

thanks for the "from the engineers seat" point of view out of scranton. how was the return trip from east stroudsburg to scranton. was you able to let 765 run from east stroudsburg to past analomink,what was your speed you were allowed to run. how was the climb from analomink to cresco, at what point in the climb was your slowest speed, did you drop any sand to keep traction. then downhill from cresco to the climb up through devils hole to moscow, how did the 765 handle the second grade climb. 

 

My chance to talk with the steamtown engineer when I was on the trip to portland never happened because we derailed between water gap and portland. I always wanted to "drive" a steam engine on the DL&W main from when my parents would tell me stories about growing up in east stroudsburg next to the tracks. Some day I would like to sit down with you and talk about this trip, as you have lived my dream. 

 

Again rich, thank you for your story and the time it took you to write it on here.

Originally Posted by DL&W Pete:
thanks for the "from the engineers seat" point of view out of scranton. how was the return trip from east stroudsburg to scranton. was you able to let 765 run from east stroudsburg to past analomink,what was your speed you were allowed to run. how was the climb from analomink to cresco, at what point in the climb was your slowest speed, did you drop any sand to keep traction. then downhill from cresco to the climb up through devils hole to moscow, how did the 765 handle the second grade climb. 

I only ran eastbound on Saturday, so I can't answer most of your questions. I can tell you that with only 13 cars, maintaining track speed was not a problem. Track speed on the west slope is 30, on the east slope is 25. No sand was needed anywhere else except on the greasy rails.

 

 

This is an on-board video of us westbound at Cresco.

We're in a 10 mph slow order here, so the engine is not working all that hard.

 

 

 

This is another video of us going by the station at Cresco.

Again, this is in the 10 mph slow order.

 

 

Once clear of the 10 mph slow order at MP 95, the 765 accelerated the train back up to track speed of 25 mph on the 1.53% grade.

 

Last edited by Rich Melvin

Well done, Rich -- both on the seatbox and at the keyboard.  

 

Your personal record has been awarded ten merits for clear thinking, good planning, and good execution of the plan, resulting in safe, smooth, and professional train handling when unusual situations were encountered while you were employed as Locomotive Engineer of steam engine NKP 765 in through passenger service at Nay Aug.

Last edited by Number 90
Originally Posted by C W Burfle:

As I read through this thread, I started wondering why the rails would have been greased.
Some "Railfans" do this because they want to see the wheels slip?

Yep...they want to see a special show, just for them. There were a handful of people shooting video near the tunnel. We'll have to see if any video ever surfaces that was shot from that location.

 

My hope is that by going public with this, it takes all the wind out of their sails. If they ever did post something shot there, we'd likely have a good suspect.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

Thank You Rich, for allowing me to live my dream through your eyes and video's you posted. 

 

If you ever get back this way to the Allentown area, would like to have lunch with you some saturday and chat about this trip. Maybe we can meet up with john and give you a tour of the BDSME club in bethlehem. 

 

If you ever want to try food from the philippines just let me know when you will be in the area, my wife will cook you some of her favorite dishes. 

 

Thanks again rich.

Steamtown has frequent issues with the public.  Two boys on ATVs were killed in 1995 and I was personally onboard during an excursion a couple years back when ATV riders were following the tracks, oblivious to what was behind them.  The engineer had to perform a near-emergency stop and they were spared by mere inches.  A few weeks after that incident, two girls stopped along the tracks in a gator ATV prompting another unplanned stop. 

 

Rich,



Your professionalism is always top notch and I am glad to see you and the team you have were able to accomplish the goal in the end.



I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. I've had photographers glare at me for walking in front of them. I guess they believe the world's land and riches belongs ALL to them!



Here is a video on Youtube that shows a passenger view of the stall in the tunnel from the greased rail. Start at the 10:00 mark. I did not make this video but it does show two bystanders left of the train watching and you guys stall and then backup. I'm not pointing fingers but I'm just sayin'!



Last edited by Rich Melvin

As a passenger on this particular excursion, I feel that this incident was pure and simple sabotage.
I believe this incident put an end to the advertised photo-runby, costing myself and others any opportunity to shoot this train on this trip.
It was lucky for me that I had already extended my trip to include chasing Monday's excursion, else my only photos of 765 would have been in Steamtown's yard.
It truly takes a sick,twisted individual to engineer such a scheme, and no doubt this was not their first time to do this.
I have other concerns about how this trip was planned, those interested can e-mail through this site to discuss.
Warren W. Jenkins

Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:
My hope is that by going public with this, it takes all the wind out of their sails. If they ever did post something shot there, we'd likely have a good suspect.

 

Very glad to hear the truth come out from your side.  Here's hoping someone comes forward and that this deters someone from trying to pull a stunt like this again.  The fans can be their own worst enemy.

Kevin

Originally Posted by OGR Webmaster:
Originally Posted by Borden Tunnel:

I believe this incident put an end to the advertised photo-runby...

This incident had nothing to do with the lack of a photo runby.

 

What killed that was a Steamtown operating rule that requires their conductor to get off the train and WALK the train into the station!

 

Kind of hard to do a photo run at walking speed.

If you mean the return to the Delaware Water Gap station, yes Ranger Rick definitely got into everyone's shot. This was really appreciated for those of us who stood in a line for almost 1 hour in the blazing sun, and especially after waiting for an hour for a burnt hamburger or dog from the overworked ladies and their grill at that crumbling ruin of a station. I understand the people who opted for a school bus ride into town actually got fed in good time, but perhaps if the truth about the scrubbed runby had been known, many of us wouldn't have waited at the station.
It was obvious to me by then that customer satisfaction was in my hands, so I made sure to enjoy a healthy dose of vestibule riding, and then found myself a seat in a deluxe coach so I would not have to suffer the indignity of riding backwards like a common commuter.
When I rode the Sunday RS-3 excursion to Moscow, the Steamtown people made sure we got our runby. The conductor ran things like a USMC sergeant, and over 170 patrons made a photo line or got the h--l out of the way. One staff member admitted that Saturday was a "snafu", and I profusely thanked several persons, including the conductor, for their efforts.
NPS photo by Tim O'Malley

11951544_1043873265625210_2637851258050593227_o

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  • 11951544_1043873265625210_2637851258050593227_o: Photo runby, properly done...

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