Read the article in the Roanoke News HERE.
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Well,,,,,,,,,I guess THAT takes care of steam excursions on NS for the future. Especially since NS "reportedly" might not renew their "excursion liability insurance policy" for 2016.
That's not Goode (pun intended)!
Reminds me of something that happened in my neighborhood when I was a kid.
The man who once owned all the property (parceled it out into single-family homes) owned 1 last vacant lot where all the kids used to play baseball. One day he told us "If you guys clear the lot off you'll have even a better ball field.
So we proceeded to clear the lot off, looked real nice (kinda like the J looks now).
He came in a week alter and started building a house...got his lot cleared for free 
Bob Delbridge posted:Reminds me of something that happened in my neighborhood when I was a kid.
The man who once owned all the property (parceled it out into single-family homes) owned 1 last vacant lot where all the kids used to play baseball. One day he told us "If you guys clear the lot off you'll have even a better ball field.
So we proceeded to clear the lot off, looked real nice (kinda like the J looks now).
He came in a week alter and started building a house...got his lot cleared for free
Nice story but, somehow I don't see how it relates to the NS and future steam operations.
“We have advised our third partner, the Virginia Museum of Transportation, that we will work with them, if they can meet financial and operational requirements, so that they can run 611 in Virginia and the Carolinas in 2016,” Terpay wrote.
“We’ve had ongoing discussions with Norfolk Southern and we hope to have something to announce after the first of the year,” Fitzpatrick said.
This a bit of good news to me, just a wait and see. If there is another excursion they can count me in.
Can't say I'm really surprised, given that the insurance was approved for 5 years and that Wick is no longer CEO.
It will be a shame if they can't find a way to operate 611, though. All that fundraising and work for less than one season of operations is anticlimactic to say the least.
In addition to the 611, I wonder what this will mean for the 765?
The other issue is going forward to raise an additional $1.5MM to build a stall for a "loaned" locomotive. I borrow your pickup truck. Now I'm building a garage for your pickup truck. You should be worried...
Hot Water posted:Bob Delbridge posted:Reminds me of something that happened in my neighborhood when I was a kid.
The man who once owned all the property (parceled it out into single-family homes) owned 1 last vacant lot where all the kids used to play baseball. One day he told us "If you guys clear the lot off you'll have even a better ball field.
So we proceeded to clear the lot off, looked real nice (kinda like the J looks now).
He came in a week alter and started building a house...got his lot cleared for free
Nice story but, somehow I don't see how it relates to the NS and future steam operations.
Jack, an analogy.
It appears to me that they got the J overhauled with a lot of donations, just like the man got his lot cleared, by donations in the form of free labor. Now they have a very much restored engine thanks to others time, effort, and $$$ and a lot of those who donated will most likely never get to see her run.
And the single biggest donor was NS. In any case, now VMT is in much the same position as the folks that run 765. Do what they do.
Trains has a little differently.
http://trn.trains.com/news/new...n-no-611-next-season
For those who don't have a subscription to Trains mag. NS is only going to let 611 on it's rails next season, maybe.
Insurance is becoming a serious problem. I wonder if nuisance settlements are part of it.
One of the airplanes I fly is used for instruction. Its liability only policy went from $300/year to a thousand overnight. We have had no claims, ever. Something else is driving it.
If the woman in Nebraska wins her case (and I'm sure she will), that would be an example of why things are as they are regarding insurance. A CEO should never run a train for any reason except revenue.
Good will and memories have long ago become too expensive for corporations of all kinds.
There is more to this than just the insurance cost, which was well over a half million dollars just for the steam operations coverage.
The railroad business is down right now. Norfolk Southern's coal revenues alone were down 31% this year! The NS stock price is also down in the mid-80's range, which is why we've been hearing about mergers, buy-outs and hostile takeovers from CP and perhaps BNSF. Norfolk Southern has a lot of very important things to work on right now that far out shadow the steam program. But NS still has the spirit. They recognized that VMT had only one year to operate the 611 and are giving them a chance to run up to four weekends of excursions in 2016. That's a great opportunity for the 611 crew and for VMT. They will do well with it, I'm sure.
With regard to 765, an NS official summed it up very well when he told me a couple of months ago that in 2016, "...you guys can do almost anything you want to on NS next year, except run a passenger excursion." We have an excellent working relationship with NS and we can use NS to deadhead to any other venue we may need to reach.
NKP 765 will have something to do in 2016, even without the opportunity to run passenger excursions on Norfolk Southern.
I know it's about money and insurance,but blame it on the lawyers of this country for doing this ,that's just plain and simple.
Hit someone at a railroad crossing and you'll find out exactly what I mean (I've had a suit personally filed against me for $5 million dollars and an undisclosed amount to against the railroad for a crossing accident). If the railroads didn't have to pay out so much in court cost and judgment awards (which I understand the r.r.'s are self-insured,but only to a degree) then rail excursions wouldn't face these dilemma's .
But when you factor in non railroad related employee's getting hurt on railroad property it makes them have to obtain outside insurance. And things do happen,even if the rail-fans are doing their best to not get hurt,that's human nature,that's why they have to have the insurance . Which unfortunately isn't cheap.
Also, one has to factor in what happen in Paris. A steam passenger train is a very nice soft target.
And while the Heritage Fleet and the steam trains were nice, did this cause NS to loose focus?
Dominic Mazoch posted:Also, one has to factor in what happen in Paris. A steam passenger train is a very nice soft target.
And while the Heritage Fleet and the steam trains were nice, did this cause NS to loose focus?
Paris had absolutely nothing to do with this. This cutback in the steam program is NOT insurance-driven. The fact that NS chose not to renew the passenger insurance policy is due to other factors, primarily the downturn in business.
When a major portion of your business - COAL - falls 31% due to oil prices coming down and the increasing use of natural gas, that is hardly the fault of a steam program or a handful of Heritage diesel paint jobs that represent less than 1% of your annual operating budget.
By the way, the word is LOSE, not LOOSE.
If that bolt comes LOOSE, it could fall out and then you will LOSE it. (Sorry...pet peeve.)
Gosh, it seems like just a few years ago that CSX could not find enough coal hoppers to
haul coal! Buy a strange fluke, I got the 611 info with the nice poster of the "big three"
in the mail today.
Ed
So does that mean you guys won't be returning to PA for a long time if ever?
the "you guys " can return to PA anytime they want via a ferry move......but good luck finding a host rr willing to allow an excursion to take place on its rails. maybe a shortline perhaps.-Jim
Robert K posted:So does that mean you guys won't be returning to PA for a long time if ever?
It depends...
NS can get us there, but there has to be a way to earn revenue once we get there.
The real fuel of steam engines is not wood, coal or oil, but MONEY!
Why does everything revolve around money in the railroad world? The costs of running excursions, whether they make a profit or not? And how do you earn revenue when traveling around? The ticket sales, the gift and food purchases on the train? You could return to Steamtown and Reading and Northern again, but on Reading and Northern you would have to start at Port Clinton or Jim Thorpe and go to Pittston. You wouldn't be able to touch NS rails with the general public on board. You would be able to board at Port Clinton, run to Jim Thorpe then Pittston, wye, then return to Jim Thorpe then reverse to Haucks, then forward to Port Clinton. Port Clinton has a turntable, and NS has a wye in Reading. R&N also has wyes at Port Carbon near Pottsville and at Haucks north of Tamaqua. You wouldn't really need to touch NS for another round of trips through the Lehigh Gorge and Scranton to Delaware Water Gap. You would only need to touch NS for the ferry moves.
It was such a real thrill to see and ride the 611 in Roanoke on the 4th of July weekend.I hope the NS keeps the steam program going.Sad that the fact steam engines built this country and now the few survivors left have such tough obstacles to overcome to continue operating.
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Robert K posted:Why does everything revolve around money in the railroad world?
Pretty much the whole world revolves around money!
SJC posted:Robert K posted:Why does everything revolve around money in the railroad world?
Pretty much the whole world revolves around money!
Even not-for-profit organizations have to cover their expenses.
Rusty
When lawyers grow up...they turn into politicians ! Time for America to take out the trash !
Robert K posted:Why does everything revolve around money in the railroad world?
Because every railroad in the world is a BUSINESS. So is the FWRHS. If we don't make money, the locomotive ends up parked and the last person out of the shop can turn off the lights because the party will be over.
This winter we will spend somewhere around $200,000 on the 765 to keep her in top running condition. Operating a steam locomotive is a serious and expensive business. We don't do this just for the fun of it. Other organizations that have run their engine just for fun have come on the scene and then faded away. They are not around any more because they did not earn enough revenue to keep their locomotive running.
The FWRHS has stood the test of time. The 765 began her second career as an excursion locomotive on September 1, 1979. Between then and today we missed running only a few years in the late 90's and up into 2005. The the 765 is now in the midst of her THIRD career, after 36 years on the road in excursion service. That reminds me...do you realize that the FWRHS has OWNED the 765 for many more years than the Nickel Plate Road did!
The 765 is on solid financial footing because we operate like a business and we make money, most of which goes right back into the locomotive. We are not just a bunch of railfans with a big toy.
Rich I was just wondering, is 765 Amtrak certified and has the FWRHS thought to try to run on the BNSF or KCS as amtrak excursions.
John 2584 posted:Rich I was just wondering, is 765 Amtrak certified and has the FWRHS thought to try to run on the BNSF or KCS as amtrak excursions.
Just my opinion but, where would any excursions on BNSF or KCS operate to? There really aren't many, if any, suitable destinations in the midwest, on BNSF to operate round trips, that include turn-around facilities. The same situation would apply to the KCS southbound out of Kansas City.
Can an organzation get insurance by piggingbacking to Amtrak's?
Dominic Mazoch posted:Can an organzation get insurance by piggingbacking to Amtrak's?
A lot of excursions now are using a lot of Amtrak coaches and power for HEP (if there's steam on the head end). I rode the 4449 trip over Stampede Pass in 2011 run exactly that way:
Hot Water posted:John 2584 posted:Rich I was just wondering, is 765 Amtrak certified and has the FWRHS thought to try to run on the BNSF or KCS as amtrak excursions.
Just my opinion but, where would any excursions on BNSF or KCS operate to? There really aren't many, if any, suitable destinations in the midwest, on BNSF to operate round trips, that include turn-around facilities. The same situation would apply to the KCS southbound out of Kansas City.
Jack there is a wye 62 miles south of KC on the KCS at the town of Amsterdam, MO. North of KC on the BNSF there was a wye at one time in St. Joseph, MO. Not sure if it is still there and even if so who knows if it could handle a steam engine.
Dominic Mazoch posted:Can an organzation get insurance by piggingbacking to Amtrak's?
Yes, all the sponsoring organization needs to do is:
1) Get permission from Amtrak.
2) Get permission from the host railroad.
3) Pay Amtrak for the portion of their insurance you will be covered under, i.e. how many days.
4) Pay Amtrak for the use of their diesel and passenger equipment, plus all the deadhead charges to move their equipment to your location and then back to their original home assignments.
John 2584 posted:Rich I was just wondering, is 765 Amtrak certified and has the FWRHS thought to try to run on the BNSF or KCS as amtrak excursions.
765 has been Amtrak certified in the past, but is not currently. We have not needed that certification the past several years for our Norfolk Southern operations, so we chose not to pay for that Amtrak inspection.
Yep...it always comes back to money.
So I guess the bottom line is no more public excursions with 765 on NS for the foreseeable future. Do you think NS will ever let you run again with passengers in the future?
"With regard to 765, an NS official summed it up very well when he told me a couple of months ago that in 2016, "...you guys can do almost anything you want to on NS next year, except run a passenger excursion." We have an excellent working relationship with NS and we can use NS to deadhead to any other venue we may need to reach."
This is great news in more than just on the surface. This means through the great work of the folks out of Fort Wayne (and TVRM (and Roanoke) there is a new generation of professional railroaders in the East who are no longer mystified by steam locomotives. They realize if a group with a steam locomotive has a good record, operates in a professional manner, they can let that locomotive on the road and it isn't some strange beast that will ruin their day and mess up their money making freight railroad.
Between the retirement of the first NS steam program, the rebuild of 765 for her 3rd career, and the new NS program, it is safe to say the professional old heads who knew steam as young bucks retired. It is a real tribute to FWRHS they were able to educate a new generation of railroaders to the point they are willing to let them run. While Wick supported steam, it would have not happened if the guys in the field didn't want it too; the culture change needs to occur at all levels across the railroad. I'll even guess, given time, some of these guys will migrate over to CSX and could start to change the culture there as well.
The Norfolk Southern people we worked with are some of the most professional, dedicated railroaders I have ever met.
The CEO, the VP's in Atlanta, Division-level company officers, middle management staff and train crews, ALL were totally dedicated to the steam program and a pleasure to work with.
And I think this go around of steam NS did this part right: using proven outsiders to provide the steam engines. NS could run what trains it wanted and not have to re-invent the wheel and come up with its own shops, and personal to run them. NS is fortunate to have such resources in its service area.
What does this mean for 765 though? Will you most likely only operate in your usual spots from now on, like CVSR, or even SRI in Owosso without an NS excursion contract? Or could you return to Steamtown and Reading and Northern in the future but not operate on NS track with passengers? I guess that means we won't see 765 in Allentown again, or on Horseshoe Curve trips again. I'm glad I rode them. It might have been the only opportunity to ride the track from Bethlehem to Jim Thorpe since that section is freight only and Lehigh Gorge cannot operate it's trains on NS. I still wish there would have been a trip in the future from Bethlehem to Rockville Bridge via Reading. Oh well. At least 611 and Amtrak can still operate excursions on NS in the future. There is a public trip being planned for this spring with Amtrak equipment from Allentown to NJ as a trial run for proposed commuter rail service.
