Run 266 Jim Barrett Basement Prep. Article

Good points, I'll make sure to watch for Jim's article.

What you describe helped me make the decision on buying my house a little over 5 years ago.

Slightly off the topic, but I went a little unconventional when home searching.  I initially went to probably over 75 open houses in my general area on my own over the course of over a year.  I saw all kinds of basements like what you describe (and learned what I did not like in the process).

It amazed me how many houses had one of each major basement thing on each of the 4 walls.  Oil tank on one, washer/dryer on another, furnace on another, slop sink on the 4th.  That was probably the worst one.

The end of this story is that the home I bought was a new construction in an existing neighborhood.  Basement not as large as one under a ranch(my initial desire), but the layout is pretty good aside from 3 visible steel columns holding up the house (4th one is next to the stairs, so no impact to space available or view). 

Room is almost a pure rectangle (only maybe 20-25% longer on one dimension than the other), stairs are along one wall, behind the stairs are the water heater, HVAC (all electric, no oil or gas to get in the way) and a sump pump in the corner.  The only items not in this neat row are the electric panel/phone/etc on the opposite corner of the basement and the water inlet from the service.

Now if I could just get my butt in gear regarding the decisions regarding finishing the space, I'd be able to get started on a "real" layout.   For the moment, I'm content with my ~ 12'x12' layout made from  modular tables I brought  from my previous apartment.

-Dave

Good point!  The home I live in now was less than 10 years old when I bought it.  When it got to be about 12-13 years old, the hot water heater (in a utilities closet) developed a leak.  Fortunately, it had a leak pan originally installed, with a pipe leading to a floor drain.  If that had not been the case, I would have had a mess to deal with.  

Since I also have a separate insurance policy that covers all my appliances and systems in the house, it only cost me a grand total of $75 (my deductible) to have the hot water heater replaced.  That insurance policy is one of the best investments I have ever made.  I subsequently used it to repair/replace several shower and tub fixtures in the place, again with a total cost of $75.

Frankly, I can't blame home builders - they're building to a price in a very competitive market, so I'd do the same: put the furnace and water heater, etc., where it will be easiest and cheapest. Most buyers don't look and don't care so . . .

Its no different with attics. Before finishing my attic I moved water heater and some furnace ducting and etc. to squeeze it all into the smallest possible "utilites space".  It was an additional effort and not an insignificant cost, but well worth it for the added space it freed up.   

Room prep is what I spent my free time doing yesterday. Drylock on the walls, then a sky blue paint. I am putting white building wrap on the ceiling as I don't really have a budget for dropped and the limited space makes the wrap my best solution. Then lighting will go in and benchwork. I hate waiting but I don't want a layot in a dim dirty space. My only limit is a power panel and a water heater...both placed well so not an issue. Good info though...

Because I like it REALLY hot.

You should see the cold water cooler I had installed!

Our water heater is really old.  It's waiting to leak while we're away in Florida.

.....

Dennis

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed Jim's article. 

I am closing on my new house Thursday of this week.  After many long months of construction I found Jim's article timely as I prepare to move in, start finishing my basement and planning my new railroad.  Lots of great ideas and things to think about.  Thanks Jim!

Some think builders are greedy, lazy,mindless souls , placing heating equipment and plumbing in the most inappropriate locations in a basement with no regard for model railroaders.

That may be true, but were not stupid.  There is a reason they call it "central heating". The best place for an air handler or furnace is often in the center of the basement as the heat is better distributed there rather than one end of the basement or another. Same goes for water heaters and the like.

Having been involved in building many custom homes in the last 25 years , I can think of only one client who had need for basement layout space.

Fred

You can be fairly sure that's when it will happen.  I've been told that most water heaters have an effective life span of a decade or so, in part depending on the quality of the water in a given area.

For my RR I eliminated the hot water tank and went to a tankless hot water system and it works beautifully plenty on demand when needed and it gives more space to the boardwalk its behind the Crusader motel hanging on a brick column.For maintenance the motel is on banana plugs lifts out and the backdrop slides out Can you see it?

An excellent idea, Don!  I've been exploring that option myself for the next time I run into water heater problems.  Every system has its own advantages and limitations, but the tankless option sure seems to be gaining favor with a lot of plumbers I've spoken with.

I have been in a lot of homes in my area. Floor drains are very uncommon here.

If feasible, I certainly would put a pan under my hot water heater. I would also put one under the washing machine.

This to me sounds like a series of articles on how to finish a basement sponsored by the new advertiser, Menards.

https://ogrforum.com/t...a-new-ogr-advertiser

jim barrett: what size basement area do you have for the layout? i dont think it was in the mag.article.-jim

Hi Mixerman,

The total is about 8700 sq. ft., but a lot of that is occupied by a center stairwell, the furnace, etc.  In the next issue, the Backshop will contain a drawing of the basement area where the layout is going to be.  What is not shown in that drawing is the two car garage also on the basement level just to the right of the layout room. 

Jim Barrett

Tankless save space and can save energy. One thing before you others head that way. If you live in a older home and go electric you may run into an issue with your supply panel. Tankless heaters require more power, for short times, than a tank heater. I was unable to go tankless as I'd have to install a new fuse box/supply panel.  And there are also some building code that come into play. Just check before hand!

I ended up with a high efficiency traditional tank model. 

Sorry, moed.  I don't' build whole new layouts just to please an advertiser. ..

Even if it was.....I could care less!!!! Whatever is done, on topic, that keeps the magazine around is OK. So many folks do not understand the challenges traditional 'hobbies' face today.....be it a manufacture, shop or MAGAZINE!  Show a stack of wood stamped MANARDS for all I care......John Menard is a train guy......THANKS!

Mitch,

The whole series of articles will be interesting to you!  I've learned from other model railroaders a vast number of things that are coming in handy during this build,.  I'll share as many of them as I can think of during the build. The best tip I ever learned was to simply blank out the entire ceiling with all the flat black paint you can put on it - and all the pipes, wires, and any other exposed eyesore.  Since the obvious objective is to look at the layout, a flat black ceiling must makes sense.  You should see the looks I get from the guys in the hardware and paint stores though when I tell them I want to paint everything overhead flat black! 

DH and others,

All good points about water heaters and drip pans, but I had the good fortune to have a floor drain in my basement not more than four feet from the location of the water heater.  So if she blows, she blows! ( &nbsp   I have had my share of hot water heater bursting experiences though.  Never any fun! 

Had some friends go the tankless route, but they said that they wouldn't do it if the had it to do over again.  They had experiences with limited amounts of hot water, etc.  I decided that the additional costs didn't outweigh the advantages of the old system.  I do believe in changing out the hot water heater every 7 to 10 years though.

I'm currently getting my basement in order so I can start on my next layout. I was fortunate enought that when we replaced the well tank I was able to move it to the same corner of the basement as the furnace, water heater,washer/dryer and sump pump. This way I can wall them off in their own separate room. My original plan was to stud out and drywall but after my flooded basement a couple years ago I'm going with 3 coats of white Drylok on the cinderblock walls and a gray epoxy garage paint floor with the black and white speckles. The ceiling is going to be drywall and my plan was to paint it white but now I'm thinking of going flat black on the drywall ceiling, not sure how this might look, don't want to leave the ceiling exposed since we seem to attract an unusual number of spiders and their webs in the basement and that would really show up on the black joists and what not. Any thoughts on how a flat ceiling painted black might look?

Jerry

Jim,

Great to see you posting finally!!!!!  Will be following your progress.  Hope to be building my layout in the coming months, plan to have a D3R meet in May!

All the ones I've seen over the years looked just great!  Attracts a viewer's eyes to what is in the room--in this case a layout--and not to extraneous items such as ductwork, pipes, beams, etc.

Any thoughts on how a flat ceiling painted black might look?

Go to your local furniture store.  Lots of them have drop ceilings painted black.  I've noticed lots of stores and restaurants with flat black ceilings.  I look for that stuff since I've got one of those black ceilings in my basement.

Timing is everything. I am delighted that Jim is doing a whole series of Backshops on building a layout on a personal basis, because I am in the process of redoing my basement so I can put in a layout the "right" way, rather than wind up with a layout in a dark and dusty dungeon-like space.

Jim's first article has already saved me from a couple of costly mistakes and prompted me to have my hot water heater checked.

Now that is the kind of partner to have!

Ed Boyle

Jim,  I am planning to do just that.  Just makes sense to make that ceiling go away!

-Charlie

Hi Jerry,

Painting your basement drywall ceiling flat black will do the job of having layout viewers concentrate on the layout. However, typical basement eight foot ceiling heights will also have a "closing in on you" effect when painted black. Ceiling lighting will have to be increased for normal use as the black will absorb a lot of light.

I know this from having painted many basement "theater" ceilings black.

One alternative might be to paint your ceiling a "sky blue".

This is an old technique that was often used on wooden front porch ceilings.

The blue color gave an open feeling to the ceiling without the stark look of a white ceiling.

Mark

audi,

I've seen many a flat black painted ceiling area complete with no drop ceiling, all the exposed joists, conduit, wires, and everything painted out flat black, and I will tell you that I too had all those premonitions about painting it, but you will never be sorry you did it. 

All my friends that knew what I was about to do and thought it was some sort of insanity even remarked later that it was absolutely beautiful!  Their comments were that they never thought it would look so good and so acceptable, but now they too are thinking about doing it - and most of them have no intentions of putting a layout in the room. 

I've since become pretty good friends with my plumber and even he had serious reservations about my plan.  When he stopped by to see how it turned out, he commented that he would have never believed how much better it made the room look. 

Like I said, I wouldn't have believed it either, but now I am a big proponent of black ceilings, even if it were just a basement game room. 

Bob Bartizek (see his post above) is the primary contributor to my own black ceiling.  His was the first one I had noticed that dramatically contributed to a layout becoming the focus of attention as a result of the ceiling going completely away.  Thanks for the tips, Bob!

When I first started my current layout a few years ago, I was going to paint the ceiling a sky blue.  My wife, who had at one time managed a photography studio, told me that I needed to paint the ceiling flat black.  Also, she suggested that all trim work, curtains, etc. should also be black.  Her reasoning was that the eye would be drawn toward the layout.  My background in Architecture resisted such dark colors...heck if it were possible I wanted a glass ceiling!!! LOL!!  But...the wife was so sure of herself and even offered to paint 1200 square feet of ceiling.  I figured I better take her up on it since these kinds of offers don't come around too often!  Shhh....don't tell her, but she was right!  Painting the ceiling flat black was the best thing I did.  Most recently, I also painted all of the trim which is eight inch masonite flat black.  The skirting is also flat black being made of black material.  All of this black has emphasized the layout and focuses the viewer's eyes on the layout details and the trains.  The eye tends to screen out the flat black areas which is exactly what I wanted so I don't think anyone will be sorry that they go this route.  If for some reason one ends up taking down the layout and wants to convert the ceiling to another color, then it is as easy as painting over with another color...plus...black makes a great base/primer coat.  Here are a few pictures of how my black ceiling and trim enhances the layout...

Alan

I agree that Jim's article is very timely. I also agree with D&H that sooner or later, a stand alone hot water heater will fail. If this does not happen to you while you own the home, you are one lucky dude.

Spec house builders are famous for cutting as many corners as they can. Ganging all of the utilities together, though this may not be the best use of the available basement space, is a common practice.

And Charlie, best of luck with your new home. You must be excited about the construction of your new layout.

Seems like if a ceiling is dry walled and is already flat, one could also like it pure white for the reflective light it would give.

.....

Dennis

I fully agree with the black painted ceiling, joists, plumbing and all. Below is two pictures of before and after. Granted these are very extreme from what "normal" folks do for a layout. I dug out my crawl space for my layout. But take a look and see the difference for yourself.

BEFORE: crawl space before digging began

          AFTER: painted black work still  in process.....about 2 years ago.

the only bad thing now about painting ceiling black, is taking pictures of the layout. The black absorbs the light instead of reflecting it.

Thank You!  Yes, very excited to get going on it.

Roger and others,

   I noticed you don't have fiberglass insulation between your joists like I do. Did you remove it?

Brad, I did not have any fiberglass between our floor joists.

Alan,

Since you posted the pictures of your layout, I'm going to highjack this thread slightly. I love the shots of your city and background buildings. Where did you get them? Did you make them? And in particular, what can you tell us about the one I have circled in red in the shot below?(I have a suspicion...) And, I think I see several others of like kind in other shots.

Thanks,

Chris

LVHR