Running Lionel command in DCS environment

Yes. Original diagram by user @CAPPilot and edited further by me.

Can be different transformers.

Obviously base can be CAB1, CAB1L, or Legacy base. Single wire connection is just common to all outer rails.

If you want to run the TMCC engine from the DCS remote, then another cable is required that connects the serial port of the TIU to the serial port of the TMCC command base. MTH 50-1032 TIU/TMCC 6' Connector Cable

Again to be clear, you have a Lionel remote. I prefer to run Lionel engines with the Lionel remote.

You only need the special serial cable when you want to run a TMCC engine by using the DCS remote- this is how those commands arrive at the TMCC base and then are transmitted to the TMCC engine.

Again the rules are very simple.

#1 with any TMCC or Legacy base, there is a special power supply that has a ground pin. That must be plugged into a properly grounded outlet. This is because the ground wiring in your house forms one side of the TMCC antenna from the base.

#2 The base is then just connected to the common outside rail of your 3 rail track system. Most systems, even with blocks, the outside rail is usually common between different loops of track. Again, bottom line, just ensure that single wire from the base post is connected to the outside rails of your track.

Thank you.  Yes I have the Lionel Remote and I appreciate the diagram.  I am indifferent to the remote.  I am guessing if that is what you prefer you get better results I am fine with that.

The description on the loco box says Lionel trainmaster command control and rail sounds.  All i am really after is controlling the speed, horn and bell.

So If I am reading this right.  It is as simple as Upost on the Command base to the black output for each track?   The rest of the setup is already in place.

Again, the next decision is do I want to spend the $$$.  These things are getting a bit pricey.

Yep, command control in Lionel is relatively easy.

@msp posted:

Thank you.  Yes I have the Lionel Remote and I appreciate the diagram.  I am indifferent to the remote.  I am guessing if that is what you prefer you get better results I am fine with that. Just my preference, but it just feels right and is comfortable- run Lionel Command Control with a Lionel remote.

The description on the loco box says Lionel trainmaster command control and rail sounds.  All i am really after is controlling the speed, horn and bell.- and crew talk or tower communication dialogs

So If I am reading this right.  It is as simple as Upost on the Command base to the black output for each track? YES The rest of the setup is already in place.

thanks

can you run an MTH engine with its remote and the lionel engine with its remote on the same track (power source)?

@msp posted:

can you run an MTH engine with its remote and the lionel engine with its remote on the same track (power source)?

Yes, you can. 

So I finally got the engine.   Can't get it going so -  The CAB 1 and TMCC i have is used but the line is on and the remote has batteries.   So I am assuming it works...maybe a big assumption.

per the engine instructions which is Legacy...

1.  I have applied power to the track, have engine in program mode (which instructions does not say)

2 . Press ENG and #1

Instructions say "throttle up" after that point.

What am I doing wrong here?

I could type up a whole procedure but Mike Reagan has a nice video on it, for now, ignore the part about the AUX function programing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO8fArYpFLQ

The engine is a used engine from what you posted. It may have a different ID than 1, so you may need to reprogram to get it to respond to your inputs.  All new engines come with an ID of 1, but if it's been changed, you may not know it's ID, which is needed for control inputs to select the loco.  I suspect this happens to a lot of folks with used engines where the owner has changed the ID to the last two digits of the loco road number or something similar.  It's possible you are not following the reprogramming instructions exactly.  Close isn't good enough .

I watched that earlier and watched it again...it is pretty straight forward.  program mode, power to track eng, #, set....I am not getting the whistle confirming.

   again, the light is on the remote is clicking when pressing buttons.

engine is new - I will try again    TMCC and remote are used.

just to be clear per diagram above have the wire on the U from the command base going to the black output of the TIU

I have also tried the app and use bluetooth it does not find my engine.

Couple of other things that occasionally mess with TMCC functionality.  Make sure the power supply for the command base is plugged into an outlet, not a surge suppressor power bar.  The house wiring acts as part of the radio frequency antenna for TMCC. So older houses with below current code wiring, with no good earth ground,  sometimes give you funky TMCC performance.  Same with surge suppressors and power bars. No solid ground = crappy TMCC.

I would connect the wire from the command base directly to your track, not through the TIU, just to eliminate one possible weak link in the transmission line. Usually not the problem, I grant you.

K-Line engines do not have Bluetooth, so don't use that function if it's a choice.  Bluetooth is a relatively recent addition to Lionel locos and K-Line was long gone when Bluetooth was added.   The app should have TMCC/Legacy functionality, so maybe I'm just unfamiliar with what you are doing, since I rarely use the app. 

So, I got bluetooth going.   Just in the short test I did it seemed to work fine.   This is the only Lionel engine i have everything else is MTH.  So, I was pleased with the bluetooth albeit just a short test.   If I were to add Lionel engines to my roster what limitations to I have with the app?   The good news is I would not have to purchase any additional hardware.  (still can't get the CAB1 going)  but again the app might be a suitable replacement.   Just wondering about any limitations.  I primarily just want speed control, couplers, horn and bell.  All of which seem easy enough with app.

Not sure what bluetooth you think you got going. Your engine does not have bluetooth. Neither does your TIU or your Lionel command base. Your engine also isn't Legacy.

1) Make sure your command base is connected to the power connector that goes to your OUTER rail.

2) Place the program/run switch on your engine into "program".

3) Place your engine on the track

4) Power up your track (18v AC)

5) Press "engine", then then number you want to assign, then "set" on your Cab 1

If you do not hear the horn of your engine, check that the volume control is turned up fully. If you do, power the track down, move the switch to "run", place the engine back on the track, power up the track (18v AC), press "engine", then turn the big red knob clockwise to start the engine running.

Does the engine work in conventional mode?

As mentioned, not clear what exactly is going on.  You are using the original Lionel TMCC command base and cab1, yes? Are you using the LionChief app?  Shouldn't work with a K-Line TMCC loco, as far as I can tell .  Any chance you are using the iCab, an older app which will work with a command base?  I believe that it requires a Wi-Fi unit to connect  to the command base, and I thought it had to be a 1L or Legacy command base.  It's not Bluetooth, as it predates the LionChief app and LionChief locos.  I'm out of my depth here, but trying to figure out what equipment you are using.

The good news.... if you are finding something that's working, it should control all the basic functions of Legacy, TMCC, LionChief + and LionChief + 2.0 locos,  as that's true of all Lionel command systems from TMCC to Legacy to LionChief.  Likely won't work with basic LionChief locos as these do not respond to anything other than the LionChief system or Bluetooth in the case of more recent locos.

Lots of variables here, and lots of good advice above.  My 2 cents... To prove that your TMCC works, can you borrow a Lionel engine from a friend and try running it with your setup?  If it works, then you'll know that your TMCC system is functional and connected properly.

Another thought - make sure that you are using the correct power source for your TMCC.  Although it looks like a common wall wart, it's not.

@Magicland posted:

Not sure what bluetooth you think you got going. Your engine does not have bluetooth. Neither does your TIU or your Lionel command base. Your engine also isn't Legacy.

1) Make sure your command base is connected to the power connector that goes to your OUTER rail.

2) Place the program/run switch on your engine into "program".

3) Place your engine on the track

4) Power up your track (18v AC)

5) Press "engine", then then number you want to assign, then "set" on your Cab 1

If you do not hear the horn of your engine, check that the volume control is turned up fully. If you do, power the track down, move the switch to "run", place the engine back on the track, power up the track (18v AC), press "engine", then turn the big red knob clockwise to start the engine running.

Does the engine work in conventional mode?

Ok well I am not a complete dumb@$$  I do have bluetooth and I do have a legacy engine.  However, after reading the above I thought it might be a joke.   So I reread the top of the thread to see where K-line came from....and I see maybe I am just a partial dumb@$$  I forgot, back in December when I started this thread I referenced  a K-line engine.   However, I passed on that one, forgot i mentioned that, and actually purchased a Lionel Legacy engine which I realize was not clear when i picked back up the thread last night.  So I apologize for sending everyone on a wild goose chase.  However, the same still applies.

With then steps above with Lionel Legacy loco. I get nothing....but yes it works in conventional mode and bluetooth.

Magicland I do appreciate the direct response.

I did plug directly to wall and run wire to outer rail.

@msp posted:

Ok well I am not a complete dumb@$$  I do have bluetooth and I do have a legacy engine.  However, after reading the above I thought it might be a joke.   So I reread the top of the thread to see where K-line came from....and I see maybe I am just a partial dumb@$$  I forgot, back in December when I started this thread I referenced  a K-line engine.   However, I passed on that one, forgot i mentioned that, and actually purchased a Lionel Legacy engine which I realize was not clear when i picked back up the thread last night.  So I apologize for sending everyone on a wild goose chase.  However, the same still applies.

With then steps above with Lionel Legacy loco. I get nothing....but yes it works in conventional mode and bluetooth.

Magicland I do appreciate the direct response.

I did plug directly to wall and run wire to outer rail.

Okay, so it appears the issue is on the TMCC side, since you've verified that the engine is working. You mentioned that the light on the remote is clicking when pressing buttons. Is the light on the command base (green LED) lighting when you press buttons on the remote?

And the limitations of the app is that it will ONLY work with Lionel engines that have bluetooth. Lionchief plus, lionchief  plus 2.0 (but not the original Lionchief) and NEWER legacy engines. Older legacy engines don't have bluetooth.

Thanks for the response.  I will be out of town and thus not able to work on this til next week.

It does appear it is on the TMCC side - the engine is brand new and is working fine.  The TMCC is used - given to me so I don't know the history.

Okay i think I am half way there.  

1.  I did get the horn....so I think we have connection.  However, after shutting down power and powering back up in run mode I get no movement with remote.  

So I guess the trigger to take it from conventional mode to TMCC is hitting ENG.   That is where I am getting no movement.   I got the horn as the engine number has been set.   it will still run conventionally, but not TMCC.  The video said something about an AUX number.  Do i need to add something else?

Again, brand new Legacy engine....

I don't think it is defaulting to command mode.  It is defaulting to conventional mode.

So after have set the number.   Switch back to run.   Each time i power up I get sounds and light right away.   Based on Vid above is should be quiet once power is applied.  

So I think it is not coming up in command mode but it is coming up in conventional mode.

Any takers?

The locomotive is not seeing any TMCC/Legacy track signal, that's the only reason that it'll come up live in conventional mode if it's a fully functional TMCC/Legacy locomotive.

So  it seems my brand new engine is not fully functional?  Because when I have it switched over to program mode - it has not come up in program mode every time.     It has come  up in conventional mode - while having it switched to program.    That is why I was having difficulty assigning the number.   I did eventually get it to come up in program mode and was able to assign a number.    As of yet it has not come up on command mode when switched back to run

I suspect the used command set is a more likely source of funkiness.  If available, the easiest way of establishing which part of the functional chain is not working is to test the command set with a known working loco, or testing the loco with a known working TMCC or Legacy set.  If the loco has Bluetooth, one can test it with the free smart device app or Universal Remote.  Obviously if your dealer isn't nearby and you don't have any local people to help with the testing issues, none of these suggestions is going to prove helpful. 

Yea -  this was my first venture into TMCc.  Everything else is DCS     I have no train friends

Just don’t know the history on the TMCc so that is probably it    May just have to bite the bullet and buy one I know to be working

@msp posted:

May just have to but the bullet and by one I know to be working

You can say the same exact thing though about your Cab-1 and Base-1.  They could equally be the problem.

Mike

Okay, I would like to take another run at this.   I have confirmed the operation of the TMCC as I have tested at a LHS and it worked.   What I did not do is test the engine there.   While that is still a variable I would think highly unlikely as the engine is new and I have subsequently purchased a second new TMCC engine.  Neither seem to recognize the TMCC signal on my layout.  

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The locomotive is not seeing any TMCC/Legacy track signal, that's the only reason that it'll come up live in conventional mode if it's a fully functional TMCC/Legacy locomotive.

This is the case.  Both engines come up in conventional mode when in program mode.   Again, I have tested the BASE and remote at a LHS.   I cannot believe both new engines are faulty.   So why is the loco not recognizing the TMCC signal in program mode?

Any takers?

Do any TMCC/Legacy engines run on the layout?  Do you have the command base plugged into a properly grounded outlet?

No other TMCC.  I have been strictly DCS.   First venture to TMCC.   Plugged into both power strip then wall.  Neither made difference.   Wire directly from base to Z4000 then  to straight to track.  Neither option made a difference.

Apropos of the comment above, if you have an older house and the outlets do not connect to grounding circuit that is literally grounded outside the house (as in newer homes), you will have no TMCC signal on the track.  Likewise, if you have a properly grounded electrical system (many houses do not) you can attenuate (destroy) the TMCC signal by plugging the TMCC command base wall wart into a power strip that kills the radio frequency signal.  Hence GRJ's question about plugged into an outlet rather than a power strip.  But the outlet must be properly grounded through a whole house system.

House was built in 2005.  I would guess it is properly grounded?

Good news is they are both bluetooth and that is sufficient for my need for speed control, couplers horn and whistle.   Just eliminates any older TMCC without BT.

@msp posted:

House was built in 2005.  I would guess it is properly grounded?

It "should" be properly grounded, but don't assume.  Here's a first step to check - use a receptacle tester like this one:  https://www.homedepot.com/p/Kl...ster-RT110/206517828

Or spend a couple bucks more and get one that also tests GFI function.

Like I said before, test the engines on a different layout, that will eliminate or indite them as the issue.  If they're not the issue, you either have a problem with your command system or an installation issue.  Narrow down the possibilities and it'll be easier to figure out which is the problem.