RUST, RUST, and MORE RUST

You can, just depends on how much time and how many dollars you are willing to spend on them.  Quite a few guys on here have save some terrible trains... Here are a few of mine.

Pete...have at it...you have nothing to lose.that's how we learn.nothing ventured nothing gained...all the best...Joe

Dennis Holler, you deserve a medal if you rescued those pieces of junk and turned them into that fine specimen of a train!

What, me worry? 

Thanks, Dennis and Joe!

What do I do about all the rivets? Do I simply spread them apart, and when it's time to restore, tap in some screws?

Dennis Holler posted:

You can, just depends on how much time and how many dollars you are willing to spend on them.  Quite a few guys on here have save some terrible trains... Here are a few of mine.

Well done, Dennis! I am confident I can restore the bodies and trucks. The electricals concern me most. Did you replace the motor components or did you renovate them?

Pete

Good afternoon Sir,

If you have to ask the members of this forum if you should attempt this project I would say no. I know I wouldn't. 

jim sutter posted:

Good afternoon Sir,

If you have to ask the members of this forum if you should attempt this project I would say no. I know I wouldn't. 

Thanks, Jim. I am inclined to give it a shot, but if it would be a fool's errand, more experienced folks might save me a lot of wasted time and effort. This is why I asked.

Kind regards,

Pete

How about some pictures?

Dennis- Like others have said, just fantastic effort and success in saving those items. I would have given up and tossed them as soon as I saw them in that condition!

Replacement rivets are available, Usually, I will just drill the rivets out.  I will qualify that by saying it does depend on what component etc.  When you are saving something that probably should be thrown away, you can kind of do what you want.  The electrical stuff like motors and such can sometimes be a pain.  If the plated motor side plates or the axles or armature shaft is pitted deeply, then you start looking for donor parts to match.  There are guys that have used the Eastwoods plating kits and there are others.  There are lots of options.. That said, I agree with Jim Sutter to a degree, If you are not sure either don't do it or maybe do something easy first.

It's not for everyone but it isn't too bad either.

N5CJonny posted:

Dennis- Like others have said, just fantastic effort and success in saving those items. I would have given up and tossed them as soon as I saw them in that condition!

Yeah, the bad part is I actually paid money for them!

Invest in a $20.00 gallon of evapo-rust and submerge the train in it overnight. You might be amazed at what you have the next morning. If you still need to remove the rivets, replacing them isn't that big of deal. Whatever items you have are probably almost worthless in the state they're in, so anything you do will begin to add value to them. Don't think of them as a dollar investment, but as a fun project.

Yes, evaporust is great, but BE FOREWARNED that it will remove the coating on the copper windings and it will ruin any fiber or paper stuff such as the 3rd rail pickup and or the insulators on the pendulum reverse units.  I know, I did it!  You can see the results in my picture above with the 260 motor and the soggy fibre board on the right foreground.

Dennis Holler posted:

Yes, evaporust is great, but BE FOREWARNED that it will remove the coating on the copper windings and it will ruin any fiber or paper stuff such as the 3rd rail pickup and or the insulators on the pendulum reverse units.  I know, I did it!  You can see the results in my picture above with the 260 motor and the soggy fibre board on the right foreground.

At the risk of running amuck within this thread and there having been numerous other threads on the subject, I'm gonna ask anyway! 

Dennis, how DO you remove all that rust? Just using Evaporust? Or are you bead blasting other parts? 00 grit sandpaper?

"I am stymied by the riveted parts, and have not the tools to deal with riveted components."

But, this is how you learn. The second one will be easier than the first, and so on. Lots of guys here do this Tinplate work - I'm not one of them, but many above probably know their stuff. 

All of the above. I used to bead blast and that worked ok. I've used Evaporust as well and it works great too, but with the limitations I mentioned above. I think it will also remove plating as well. Evaporust is expensive though, and lately I've been using plain old electrolysis. It works great. I put together a 5 gallon bucket with 5 sections of rebar and a 12 gauge copper wire connecting the bars. Hang your part in the bucket of water/baking soda and connect the hot lead to the rebar and the ground to the part and plug the old battery charger in. Go off and do something else for a while and next thing you know it's all clean. To answer your question, though all of those methods will do the job. bead blasting will remove your tinplate layer and the other two will not.

Thanks for sharing in your Rust Removal 101 class!  

Here's a pic of the rig..

Dennis, your experience with evapo-rust is much different than mine. The only thing it's ever taken off for me is rust. It doesn't even take loose paint off when I sometimes wish it would...

I used electrolysis to remove the rust on my cars seat frames. It is an extremely fun way to remove rust, once you get over the electricity/water aspect of it. You do have to have a non-regulated battery charger for it to work, though.

In many cases if the rust is not so bad its rotted holes and severe deformations in the metal, an item can be restored. Its a matter of having the correct tools. Everyone starts out simple. Wire brushes, soaking or boiling in Tide to remove paint and rust. But the best over all method is a bead blasting cabinet. You can get the cheap ones on auction for $125. The media is glass beads and can also be purchased on auction in 80 pound bags. Of course a compressor is needed. A 10 gallon one would suffice if you don't mind stopping every few minutes to let it catch up. This process removes just about everything, paint, gunk, rust... leaving a clean shiny surface. Than just clean and prime for paint. Parts are available for wheels, valve gear, pick ups, trim, couplers and all other number of items that may be missing, damaged or rusted beyond saving. E-Units can be repaired easily unless the coil is cooked. Their frames and other parts can be bead blasted with careful masking with tape. The same with Armatures and Whistle Relays. Post war car wheels can be bead blasted then reblackend. Pre war wheels can be stripped with a wire wheel, then polished to a shine with a buffing wheel. Pitted ones can be replaced. Number plates can be cleaned, and if need be they can be replated. Armatures and fields can be sent out to be rewound. Trim can be stripped with a dremel tool and buffed up to a high shine. An Arbor press with a basic set of tools is a must. It will take care of the rivet issue. Makes life so much easier. A good Lionel style wheel puller would come in handy as well. Having some body working skills with Bondo and Glazing putty is helpful in case of dents and minor pitting.

Tin

I disagree that Evapo-Rust will destroy windings.  I've rescued several can motors that looked totaled, just dunked them in the Evapo-Rust for a few hours, and they are running like a champ.  I rescued a bunch of rolling stock and a few locomotives that had been submerged in salt water for days (hurricane Sandy on LI), and then left for several months to age.  It took some work, but three of four locomotives were brought back to life and about twenty nice scale freight cars. Plastic shells cleaned up really well with minimal issues, some of the painted metal frames had to be stripped and painted.  The die-cast parts seemed to do quite well.

I did find out that too long in Evapo-Rust will eat the wheels of older K-Line cars, they're some kind of cast copper alloy.  Without Evapo-Rust, I'm not sure how I'd have cleaned all the stuff up as well as they came out.

Hey, it's actually good you guys had some different results than I did.  No problem with that, just more data points.     I'll lighten my original statement to be carefull and test, your milage may vary. 

Recovering well rusted train gear has proven to be a time and money consuming ordeal.  Here in Hurricane Katrina and recent river flooding Louisiana we have had hundreds of flood damaged trains appear at train shows.  Unless the item is a rare, highly valued or of sentimental value it is not worth the effort for most of us.  These trains are similar to the dreaded zinc pest cast engines.

Good luck to those who take up the task.

Charlie

 

Hey guys, I have seen some railway museums in my time with twelve inches to the foot cars and locomotives sitting around in worse condition than what you have posted. Suggestion, add a bone yard or museum to your layout. Let the cars sit as is. If you feel up to it take one and try and restore it. If it does not work put it back in the bone yard. It will make for some interesting scenery.

model railroading is so much fun!

Pete:  The rivet issue is difficult only because you need to invest some money to overcome it.  Harbor Freight has a neet little 1 ton bench top press (Item # 3552) for about $ 60.  Jeff Kane of the Train Tender has a good assortment of the anvils and clinchers needed as well as the rivets.  The press needs to be modified to accept the clinchers and the anvils but this could be done at most machine shops for a fee.  Of course, as mentioned earlier, this is only worthwhile if you plan to continue this type of restoration.  Another option to pursue is to find a local O gauge club and see if any members having this capability might be interested in providing the riveting service for a fee.  Best Regards,

 

Phranzdan

Jeff Kane of the Train Tender has a good assortment of the anvils and clinchers needed as well as the rivets.

Last I knew, many of the tools Jeff sells, including the core 15 piece set, are made locally for him. IMHO, the quality of these tools is very good. Not all tools are equal. 

If you do purchase a riveting outfit, two problems remain:

Finding the appropriate rivets.

Learning to use the tools. It does take some practice to get it down. Even though he has his own outfit, my buddy usually brings his riveting jobs to me because he thinks I can do a better job than he can.

RE: Evapo-Rust Report

Good morning, Brothers!  Hope you had a great Independence Day!

The Evapo-Rust did an amazing job cleaning up the armature, the field, the motor foundation, trucks, wheels, car frames, screws, and washers of the 2466W tender I am working on. Thank you, BRR, for suggesting it. I haven't put the motor back together yet to see if it runs because I am still awaiting parts. The bearing was loose even though rusted, so one would expect the armature wobble and screeche, instead of smoothly rotating the impeller on a single axis. The  studs had to be  pulled  and the back plate had to be pried off to get at the innards (That's a technical engineering term for you History majors out there.). The gaskets are worn and useless.

QUESTION #1: Since the metal back plate was necessarily bent/warped a little from removing it, there will be gaps with the whistle body when reattached. To make an air tight seal, what would you recommend? Plumbers putty?

Another job that must be done before reassembly is painting the frame of the tender. I want to respect the authenticity of tender, so:

QUESTION #2: What primer and paint do you men use to make faithful restoration of your cars? I do not have a great set up for a permanent paint area, so I will basically be using cardboard boxes and thread. Do you tape over the white stamped tender # on the underside, or repaint the numbers?

Thanks for your insights and expertise!

Pete

Some folks cover numbers and try to get a paint match. The outline of the mask is almost always visible. Why bother? 

Long ago I used dry transfers to number locos and letter tenders. Never tried the rubber stamps that seem to be prevalent these days.

Since it does not show, I would not bother marking the underside lf the frame anyway.

 

 

Thanks, C.W.! Yes, there is no way to avoid the masked area looking different from the painted area. But is there any reason to preserve the original numbering or will re-numbering be just as good?

Love EvapoRust but it will remove the black coating (what ever it is) that Lionel used on many items. Had a couple of rusty O-27 uncouple/unload tracks that were rusted--removed the rust but also the black, then I had a real problem with rust.

Scotie posted:

Love EvapoRust but it will remove the black coating (what ever it is) that Lionel used on many items. Had a couple of rusty O-27 uncouple/unload tracks that were rusted--removed the rust but also the black, then I had a real problem with rust.

Thanks, Scotie! You hit the nail on the head about Evapo-rust leaving bare metal in its wake, hence my painting question. I need to get a bunch of cars painted while the metal is freshly clean and rust free. Otherwise rust will form again  rather quickly.

After using the Evapo-Rust, I recommend cleaning with a solvent and getting them painted ASAP.  I've also used cold bluing for some items that seemed to have a blued and not painted surface, that works pretty well.

HCSader73 posted:

Thanks, C.W.! Yes, there is no way to avoid the masked area looking different from the painted area. But is there any reason to preserve the original numbering or will re-numbering be just as good?

A repaint is a repaint as far as I am concerned.

IMHO, a repaint with nicely done relettering/renumbering is better than one with original lettering masked off.

late to the party...Pete give it a shot. You've got rusty trains that a lot would have trashed, so you've nothing to loose but plenty to gain. But be forewarned.....rescuing rusty old trains is an addiction. But it's a ton of fun. Might not always make sense money wise...but it hasn't stopped me. And we're dying for pics!! Before and after please!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

After using the Evapo-Rust, I recommend cleaning with a solvent and getting them painted ASAP.  I've also used cold bluing for some items that seemed to have a blued and not painted surface, that works pretty well.

Thanks, John! What black paint would you use for the metal car frames?

C W Burfle posted:

HCSader73 posted:

Thanks, C.W.! Yes, there is no way to avoid the masked area looking different from the painted area. But is there any reason to preserve the original numbering or will re-numbering be just as good?

A repaint is a repaint as far as I am concerned.

IMHO, a repaint with nicely done relettering/renumbering is better than one with original lettering masked off.

I take your point, C.W. Thanks for the sage advice!

 

Regards,

Pete

dennis have you gotten any further with the last few pictures you showed. I want to see what happens to the 260e

Steamer posted:

late to the party...Pete give it a shot. You've got rusty trains that a lot would have trashed, so you've nothing to loose but plenty to gain. But be forewarned.....rescuing rusty old trains is an addiction. But it's a ton of fun. Might not always make sense money wise...but it hasn't stopped me. And we're dying for pics!! Before and after please!

Hiya, Steamer! Too late to get "before shots" on some cars. I do have one special restoration project I am putting off until I complete all the other repairs on my work table.

Here is a pic of a 675 locomotive I acquired, rusted solid.

I haven't tried to open it up yet, so I don't know the extent of the corrosion. I do  know my rust, however, and this brown rust is old, very old, and indicative of having sat in water, as in a wet basement. When I finish other tasks I will make a project of photographing the steps along the way to restore this lady.

joe krasko posted:

Pete...have at it...you have nothing to lose.that's how we learn.nothing ventured nothing gained...all the best...Joe

Joe, a tardy thank you for the encouragement! There is something satisfying about taking a forlorn hope and turning it into a dream come true.

Best regards,

Pete