Scale City Designs MARS light

I don't know how good the MARS light simulation is, but the best one I've found is the ngineering.com MARS light simulator.  Of course, it doesn't have that enclosure on the rail, it's just the electronic board.

Cool, I'll check out the ngineering one. How does either connect to your LED board?

Actually, I've never connected that to my board, but since the interior lights run around 10-11 volts, you could probably just connect it in parallel with the lighting strip.  Remember, my lighting board is a constant current board as that's the way I get smooth intensity control.

I have that Keil Line (now Scale City) kit, which I got for a project very similar to yours. I ended up not using it partly because I found something else that had a much smaller "footprint" and partly because the kit is meant for a different use.

I hope this is not too much info but as I had to do the research here's what I found:

1.  While you might be able to use the lighting part of the kit for your purpose it's actually meant for a different kind of end car. The kit includes an end of car gate, which is not what the California Zephyr observation car had. This is meant to replicate the tail end arrangement on some Santa Fe and similar streamliners, which you can see discussed in detail on this thread: https://ogrforum.com/t...35#56756833300624335. Note that the light was simply mounted in the rear doorway, not integrated into the roof of the car.

2.  The Zephyr observation car had a very distinctive rear light arrangement and you can see the Mars light in operation in this video at about 1:20 min in: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IWMv0c4tZ-I. I can't remember whether the Keil Line kit has the oscillating effect of a Mars light but I think it does. You could ask Scale City; they are very good at responding to inquiries.

3. I think that the Lionel SKU you give means that your observation car's end looks like this:

This is not prototypical but you can modify the plastic roof end cap to create a housing like that shown in the video.

4.  GRJ mentions the Ngineering Mars light simulator board, which is what I ended up using in my project. It is smaller than the circuit board arrangement that comes with the Keil Line kit. You can "lose" or conceal that board somewhere in or under the car but I needed to conserve room in my project. How good is the Ngineering effect? Very, IMHO. You can see it on their website and in this video of the installation in my Texas Special observation car: https://m.youtube.com/watch?fe...be&v=jbNR6zYNlIE

5.  The only trouble is that the board is really tiny and you need to solder the connections to and from it:

It also needs DC power. I think, but GRJ can say for sure, that his LED power module will power this as well as overhead LEDs.

6.  There are some other options I found but the first has incandescent lighting http://www.miniatronics.com/Me...&Product_Count=1 and the second does not have the Mars light simulation http://dansdrumheads.angelfire.com/Mars.html

The board is tiny, and the soldering may be a challenge for some folks.  My advice is to simply find someone to solder the four leads to the board and heatshrink it to protect it.  It will drive one LED and does an excellent job.  Given what I see in the video, I'd use a red LED.  I used a red LED and this board for my FEF MARS light, it looks great.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

... you could probably just connect it in parallel with the lighting strip.  Remember, my lighting board is a constant current board as that's the way I get smooth intensity control.

AFAIK the single-LED Mars simulators modulate the intensity of the single LED to simulate the motion.  So the current draw of the Mars module goes up and down.  If driven in parallel with the lighting strip, it seems the interior light strip brightness will also modulate in "opposition" to the Mars LED intensity (so as to maintain constant current)?

I see there are variants that use multiple LEDs for Mars simulation.  Though I'd be surprised (pleasantly) if they engineered that module to draw a constant current.

Considering you or a buddy will need to do some close-quarters soldering anyway, perhaps just "tap into" GRJ's lighting board with a 25 cent voltage regulator IC (e.g., 78L12).  Many options depending on how much other lighting you want to add.  For example, do the words "California" and "Zephyr" slowly alternate/change brightness?   Perhaps a video artifact but if this is indeed prototypical behavior I'm sure we can figure out something to simulate that behavior.

Or, just use a small power module independently powered to run the MARS module.

Is that power module available to buy assembled?

I've been using your DIY constant-voltage/constant-current power module - an even tinier module but I think quite the challenge for the average guy to assemble.

Yours was the double-sided model higher current model Stan, I tried to make this one fairly small but still have flexibility.  The TO-92 part can be any voltage 3-terminal regulator on this one.  However, I agree that it's still a big challenging for folks that don't have the right soldering iron and some soldering skills to build.  I also use this one for folks that want to use my Chuff-Generator without the Super-Chuffer, so they need 5VDC with a common ground.

stan2004 posted:

Is that power module available to buy assembled?

I've been using your DIY constant-voltage/constant-current power module - an even tinier module but I think quite the challenge for the average guy to assemble.

Average guy here. I'd also be interested in whether the first module is available to buy assembled. If so I'll take a dozen right now. 

P.S. I have tried using Ngineering's N8101 DC power source 

but it's not rated to take more than 13.5 VAC input.

I marvel at the specs of the Ngineering's N8101, I don't know why they limited it to such a low voltage.

As for availability of the little power module, send me an email and I'll see what I can do.  I've never gone out for an official build for these as I don't visualize the quantity would justify it.  So, I actually hand assemble them as needed. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I marvel at the specs of the Ngineering's N8101, I don't know why they limited it to such a low voltage.

I suspect it's the capacitor...they might be using a 16V ceramic.   Could even be 13.5V AC means DCC voltage which is a square-wave so peaks at 13.5V...as opposed to O-gauge 13.5V AC which peaks at ~20V. 

Hancock52 posted:

I have that Keil Line (now Scale City) kit, which I got for a project very similar to yours. I ended up not using it partly because I found something else that had a much smaller "footprint" and partly because the kit is meant for a different use.

I hope this is not too much info but as I had to do the research here's what I found:

1.  While you might be able to use the lighting part of the kit for your purpose it's actually meant for a different kind of end car. The kit includes an end of car gate, which is not what the California Zephyr observation car had. This is meant to replicate the tail end arrangement on some Santa Fe and similar streamliners, which you can see discussed in detail on this thread: https://ogrforum.com/t...35#56756833300624335. Note that the light was simply mounted in the rear doorway, not integrated into the roof of the car.

2.  The Zephyr observation car had a very distinctive rear light arrangement and you can see the Mars light in operation in this video at about 1:20 min in: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IWMv0c4tZ-I. I can't remember whether the Keil Line kit has the oscillating effect of a Mars light but I think it does. You could ask Scale City; they are very good at responding to inquiries.

3. I think that the Lionel SKU you give means that your observation car's end looks like this:

This is not prototypical but you can modify the plastic roof end cap to create a housing like that shown in the video.

4.  GRJ mentions the Ngineering Mars light simulator board, which is what I ended up using in my project. It is smaller than the circuit board arrangement that comes with the Keil Line kit. You can "lose" or conceal that board somewhere in or under the car but I needed to conserve room in my project. How good is the Ngineering effect? Very, IMHO. You can see it on their website and in this video of the installation in my Texas Special observation car: https://m.youtube.com/watch?fe...be&v=jbNR6zYNlIE

5.  The only trouble is that the board is really tiny and you need to solder the connections to and from it:

It also needs DC power. I think, but GRJ can say for sure, that his LED power module will power this as well as overhead LEDs.

6.  There are some other options I found but the first has incandescent lighting http://www.miniatronics.com/Me...&Product_Count=1 and the second does not have the Mars light simulation http://dansdrumheads.angelfire.com/Mars.html

 

Thanks for the info. Yes, that is the car I have. Do I have to use the end gate? I'd consider making the housing as I looked up photos of the real sliver sky, and it has a housing above the car for the MARS light. I'd like something that I can just stick on the car and use. That board on the Ngineering one is extremely tiny. Although I do like the look of it. 

"Thanks for the info. Yes, that is the car I have. Do I have to use the end gate? I'd consider making the housing as I looked up photos of the real sliver sky, and it has a housing above the car for the MARS light. I'd like something that I can just stick on the car and use. That board on the Ngineering one is extremely tiny. Although I do like the look of it. "

No, you don't have to use the gate part of the casting although the Mars light housing is meant to be attached to it. I have not got the kit in front of me but from memory it's a nice casting, especially the light housing. I've put the whole thing away in the hope of using it another time. 

The electrical part of the kit is something you can just stick in place/recycle. But if you are interested in having a Mars light effect instead of a static red tail light I'd check with Scale City whether the board that comes with this kit produces that effect. I think it does but to be honest I tested so many options for my project I might be confusing this with board with another one.

FYI, from looking at the Lionel parts diagram for this particular car (6-25723), it looks like there is an LED fitted in the aperture in the middle of the tapered roof piece and a PCB board behind which has smaller LEDs mounted on it.  The latter might illuminate the side marker lights (although only indirectly from behind, which is what Lionel did with older aluminum observation cars). This is an odd arrangement that might not provide good illumination of the side lights. It's relatively easy to put surface mount chip LEDs directly on those lights, which really brightens them up.

The PCB illuminates the Drumhead. The marker lights and rear light are just lighted off the car lights. I'll email Scale city and see what they say. I'd like it to flash (like a gyralight) if I can. 

stan2004 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I marvel at the specs of the Ngineering's N8101, I don't know why they limited it to such a low voltage.

I suspect it's the capacitor...they might be using a 16V ceramic.   Could even be 13.5V AC means DCC voltage which is a square-wave so peaks at 13.5V...as opposed to O-gauge 13.5V AC which peaks at ~20V. 

They are talking about O-gauge AC, not DCC - see the notes here on AC support: http://www.ngineering.com/n8101_ac.htm

Uhh... we understand what AC and DCC are, the 13.5 VAC is not sufficient for O-gauge command operation with 18VAC on the track.

Hancock52 posted:

... It's relatively easy to put surface mount chip LEDs directly on those lights, which really brightens them up.

If you're an "average guy" when it comes to soldering, it might a hassle working with the tiny surface-mount LEDs.  Not sure exactly which LED strips you plan to use, but here are some photos from this DIY build showing how you might be able to cut off the end 3-LED section of a standard LED strip to get the flat-surfaced LEDs.  You kind of have to think through how these LEDs strips are constructed (documented in the build link) to see if/how this might simply your task.  Obviously you'd be installing your Mars circuit for the center LED so this is more about the two side lights.

The MARS circuit takes a different voltage and probably current than the string of lights, so I don't know how well that would work.  Typically, the lights are running on only two or three milliamps in a passenger car.  My typical 18" car with eight groups of 3 LED's uses around 25ma, or 3ma for each LED.  Sticking the MARS light in series with two LED's would mean you're trying to run it on 3 -4 volts, it won't work at that voltage.

My take on the MARS circuit would be to have a series resistor to "tune" the current.  I suspect the variance in intensity of the light strip could be made very small and maybe not readily visible.  If not, there's always plan-B, use a separate power module.

I was not clear.  He still needs the ngineering circuit for the Mars light which would use your power module to provide a suitable voltage.  The point is "loose" surface-mount LEDs are difficult to work with...so if you are buying/using the 12V LED strips anyway, you can cut the strips which might make for simplified soldering/mounting to take advantage of the flat-surface and wide-angle projection of the surface-mount LEDs.

If cost is an issue, I seem to recall low-cost LED modules that simulate a lighthouse with brightness slowly ramping up and down.  A Mars lights is always ON so another potential idea is to use 2 LEDs projecting through the Mars lens where one LED always ON from the LED-strip and the 2nd LED ramping up and down in brightness.

Still curious as to the plan to illuminate what appears to be neon tubes with "California Zephyr" in the prototype.  I suppose this is akin to a drum head light?

I have a couple of old/new Kemtron Mars lights. They really work well. Still in original boxes. Anyone remember those? Don

Thank you everyone for this thread. Just another reason to be a member of and follow the OGR forum. That mars light on the gate is exactly what I remember from the rear of the Peninsula "400" on C&NW in the 1950's. I've ordered one for my "400" I also ordered some peel and stick headrest covers for my B&O and Amtrak cars in which I painted the seats.

ngineering.com also makes a 3-LED MARS simulator.  It's pretty cool, but of course a PITA to mount the three LED's.  I have tried one, I used some short fiber pieces and 2mm post LED's.  Looked great, but took forever to get it all together and looking right!

scale rail posted:

I have a couple of old/new Kemtron Mars lights. They really work well. Still in original boxes. Anyone remember those? Don

I have never actually seen one of these but have certainly heard of them. They rarely come up for auction 

(I've been looking/waiting). Is this what yours look like?

Regarding the OP's project:

1.  I think that the Scale City kit is meant to run off of track power and so already has the necessary circuit board to do so. Thus, wiring it off the overhead LEDs or with a separate power source would not be necessary. However, as I have already said, I can't recall whether it has a Mars light effect feature or is just static. I'll be interested to know what Scale City says about this.

2.  I don't think that the OP's observation car has the same sort of large marker light bezels shown in Stan's photo above. The later Lionel aluminum observation cars I have worked on have marker light bezels with small bases that are flush with the inside of the body shell. I actually tried lighting these with the larger square LEDs shown in his photo but the "stray" light from where the LED is larger than the base actually showed through seams between the plastic roof piece and the aluminum shell. So I used red Evan Designs "chip" LEDs. Yes, they are small but in fact easier to apply than it is to solder wires to the Ngineering simulator board.

3.  The three LED Mars simulator Ngineering produces has a nice effect but the LED array for it is a total PITA to assemble. It defeated me: I did one using three surface mount LEDs that had fiber optic cylinders already attached to them - these are made to be diesel headlights for Athearn HO models. 

4.  I might have started a hare running by linking the California Zephyr observation car video showing the alternating neon lighting of the drumhead. I don't think that the OP was thinking of including that effect although looking at the light board for his model I wondered if it's already part of it (but I doubt it):

However I can see how it might roughly be done with a couple of slow flash/lighthouse LEDs if they could be timed to alternate.

Hancock52 posted:

1.  I think that the Scale City kit is meant to run off of track power and so already has the necessary circuit board to do so. Thus, wiring it off the overhead LEDs or with a separate power source would not be necessary. However, as I have already said, I can't recall whether it has a Mars light effect feature or is just static. I'll be interested to know what Scale City says about this.

Judging from the size of the Scale City kit, I sure hope it runs on track power!  It's huge, hiding that big blob is going to be a challenge in the car in question!  Using the ngineering.com single LED MARS light simulator is a better bet here.  The addition of a much smaller module for power will allow you to put the electronics out of sight in the car.

Hancock52 posted:

scale rail posted:

I have a couple of old/new Kemtron Mars lights. They really work well. Still in original boxes. Anyone remember those? Don

I have never actually seen one of these but have certainly heard of them. They rarely come up for auction 

(I've been looking/waiting). Is this what yours look like?

Regarding the OP's project:

1.  I think that the Scale City kit is meant to run off of track power and so already has the necessary circuit board to do so. Thus, wiring it off the overhead LEDs or with a separate power source would not be necessary. However, as I have already said, I can't recall whether it has a Mars light effect feature or is just static. I'll be interested to know what Scale City says about this.

2.  I don't think that the OP's observation car has the same sort of large marker light bezels shown in Stan's photo above. The later Lionel aluminum observation cars I have worked on have marker light bezels with small bases that are flush with the inside of the body shell. I actually tried lighting these with the larger square LEDs shown in his photo but the "stray" light from where the LED is larger than the base actually showed through seams between the plastic roof piece and the aluminum shell. So I used red Evan Designs "chip" LEDs. Yes, they are small but in fact easier to apply than it is to solder wires to the Ngineering simulator board.

3.  The three LED Mars simulator Ngineering produces has a nice effect but the LED array for it is a total PITA to assemble. It defeated me: I did one using three surface mount LEDs that had fiber optic cylinders already attached to them - these are made to be diesel headlights for Athearn HO models. 

4.  I might have started a hare running by linking the California Zephyr observation car video showing the alternating neon lighting of the drumhead. I don't think that the OP was thinking of including that effect although looking at the light board for his model I wondered if it's already part of it (but I doubt it):

However I can see how it might roughly be done with a couple of slow flash/lighthouse LEDs if they could be timed to alternate.

My cars lighting arrangement is very similar to Stans UP aluminum car, only difference is that the lights don't stick out as much. I'll email Scale city and see what they say about the light. It would be neat to have the fade effect on the drumhead but it's not a big deal. The light on the drumhead is just on solid. 

Hancock52 posted:

I might have started a hare running ....

He might have trouble hiding that in the rear of that observation car.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

He might have trouble hiding that in the rear of that observation car.

Lol, I think so. 

Trainlover9943 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

He might have trouble hiding that in the rear of that observation car.

Lol, I think so. 

Joking aside, did you get an answer from Scale City about their kit? 

Hancock52 posted:

Trainlover9943 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

He might have trouble hiding that in the rear of that observation car.

Lol, I think so. 

Joking aside, did you get an answer from Scale City about their kit? 

Nope, nothing yet. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

He might have trouble hiding that in the rear of that observation car.

Tough crowd!

Depends on how much work one wants to put into it.  My UP car has silhouette windows so a mechanism as pictured could be made to fit.  With a detailed interior the servo might be placed in the ceiling and bevel gears used to change the angle.  Obviously this would involve some mechanical work though with tiny R/C cars/planes/drones the availability of low cost gears has improved.  The steering mechanism on HO-like cars use a tiny coil to attract/repel a tiny Neodymium magnet.  Such a mechanism could also work to rotate/sweep an LED back-and-forth with the LED replacing the pivoting wheel in the photo.  With negligible load, plastic parts should work and might be a poster application for a 3-D printer.

stan2004 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

He might have trouble hiding that in the rear of that observation car.

Tough crowd!

Depends on how much work one wants to put into it.  My UP car has silhouette windows so a mechanism as pictured could be made to fit.  With a detailed interior the servo might be placed in the ceiling and bevel gears used to change the angle.  Obviously this would involve some mechanical work though with tiny R/C cars/planes/drones the availability of low cost gears has improved.  The steering mechanism on HO-like cars use a tiny coil to attract/repel a tiny Neodymium magnet.  Such a mechanism could also work to rotate/sweep an LED back-and-forth with the LED replacing the pivoting wheel in the photo.  

 

Tough indeed! But as the toughest are those who actually understand electronics I'm prompted to raise a question about putting electronic components not designed for 3-Rail AC O gauge models in them. 

I have used of variety of such components - mainly Ngineering simulator and LED boards - in some of my trains. Obviously they have to have DC power and I've used various DC power sources, including GRJ's LED power module, to provide this from track power. I've always wondered whether notwithstanding this the components could create any sort of "feedback" (for want of a better word) that would interfere with either the Legacy or DCS track signal or indeed the standard sound/control boards in the engines and some cars. So far I have not noticed any adverse effect on either but then I only have a simple temporary layout on which there are usually no more than three trains at a time. 

I can see more than one potential use for the servos Stan has mentioned but with a coil/magnet mechanism is there a possibility of such interference? 

P.S. for Matt: I'm surprised that you haven't got an answer from Scale City by now but if I can find my kit on Monday I'll power it up and let you know what it actually does.

Hancock52 posted:

stan2004 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

He might have trouble hiding that in the rear of that observation car.

Tough crowd!

Depends on how much work one wants to put into it.  My UP car has silhouette windows so a mechanism as pictured could be made to fit.  With a detailed interior the servo might be placed in the ceiling and bevel gears used to change the angle.  Obviously this would involve some mechanical work though with tiny R/C cars/planes/drones the availability of low cost gears has improved.  The steering mechanism on HO-like cars use a tiny coil to attract/repel a tiny Neodymium magnet.  Such a mechanism could also work to rotate/sweep an LED back-and-forth with the LED replacing the pivoting wheel in the photo.  

 

Tough indeed! But as the toughest are those who actually understand electronics I'm prompted to raise a question about putting electronic components not designed for 3-Rail AC O gauge models in them. 

I have used of variety of such components - mainly Ngineering simulator and LED boards - in some of my trains. Obviously they have to have DC power and I've used various DC power sources, including GRJ's LED power module, to provide this from track power. I've always wondered whether notwithstanding this the components could create any sort of "feedback" (for want of a better word) that would interfere with either the Legacy or DCS track signal or indeed the standard sound/control boards in the engines and some cars. So far I have not noticed any adverse effect on either but then I only have a simple temporary layout on which there are usually no more than three trains at a time. 

I can see more than one potential use for the servos Stan has mentioned but with a coil/magnet mechanism is there a possibility of such interference? 

P.S. for Matt: I'm surprised that you haven't got an answer from Scale City by now but if I can find my kit on Monday I'll power it up and let you know what it actually does.

I'm surprised too. Should I try emailing them again, or call them? 

Matt we never received anything from you. Exactly what is your question as we always answer emails.

Scale City Designs posted:

Matt we never received anything from you. Exactly what is your question as we always answer emails.

I was wondering if the MARS Light kit you offer flashes? Or is it just a standard light? I'm not sure why the email didn't get through to you guys. 

Stan, someday I need to talk with you about using the servo operated KD G scale coupler triggered by the MTH PS 2 &3 boards.

Right now I'm over my head with electrical projects waiting to be done. I really don't like to fiddle with tiny stuff. I have about 20 cars waiting for LED conversion still. I tore apart a 3rd Rail end observation car and never got it done. I really wish I hadn't started. I hate to convert 3 rail trucks to 2 rail when they don't end up rolling well. I'd prefer roller bearings inside. I just can't afford the Wasatch trucks right now. So nothing's moving forward.

 The last five engines that I've pre-ordered have needed major attention and I'm getting sick of toy trains fast.

To be 100% honest i never saw this operate and I will have to look for John Keil's display to see if we can power it up. According to the instructions of the kit " The Mars light circuit is designed to produce the effect of an oscillating headlite or rear warning light. Maximum brilliance will not vary once the low operating voltage is reached".

I'll try to get you a complete answer this weekend. I will also have to check how many we have left as the person who was making this circuit for John is no longer making them. I am trying to find a new source.

As we bought Keil line from John's widow there are some answers we did not get as well as some suppliers who are no longer in business so we are trying to get 100% of the line back in business along with other items we purchased from Tom Yorke and Chris Comport (Russian River) along with expanding our own line.

We also are able to supply you with Arttista figures Tru color paints and many more items that will be on our new website coming shortly with more pics.

Scale City Designs posted:

To be 100% honest i never saw this operate and I will have to look for John Keil's display to see if we can power it up. According to the instructions of the kit " The Mars light circuit is designed to produce the effect of an oscillating headlite or rear warning light. Maximum brilliance will not vary once the low operating voltage is reached".

I'll try to get you a complete answer this weekend. I will also have to check how many we have left as the person who was making this circuit for John is no longer making them. I am trying to find a new source.

As we bought Keil line from John's widow there are some answers we did not get as well as some suppliers who are no longer in business so we are trying to get 100% of the line back in business along with other items we purchased from Tom Yorke and Chris Comport (Russian River) along with expanding our own line.

We also are able to supply you with Arttista figures Tru color paints and many more items that will be on our new website coming shortly with more pics.

 

 

Cool. I'm very interested in this kit. My email is prr2100@gmail.com