The instructions indicate that it works as you would wish - an oscillation or variable output that gives a Mars light effect without the complicated mechanics. I'm pretty sure that this uses an incandescent bulb instead of an LED. I'll still have a look at mine and see if it works, in which case I will try to post a video.
Hancock52 posted:The instructions indicate that it works as you would wish - an oscillation or variable output that gives a Mars light effect without the complicated mechanics. I'm pretty sure that this uses an incandescent bulb instead of an LED. I'll still have a look at mine and see if it works, in which case I will try to post a video.
Sounds good.
Hancock52 posted:Tough indeed! But as the toughest are those who actually understand electronics I'm prompted to raise a question about putting electronic components not designed for 3-Rail AC O gauge models in them.
I have used of variety of such components - mainly Ngineering simulator and LED boards - in some of my trains. Obviously they have to have DC power and I've used various DC power sources, including GRJ's LED power module, to provide this from track power. I've always wondered whether notwithstanding this the components could create any sort of "feedback" (for want of a better word) that would interfere with either the Legacy or DCS track signal or indeed the standard sound/control boards in the engines and some cars. So far I have not noticed any adverse effect on either but then I only have a simple temporary layout on which there are usually no more than three trains at a time.
I can see more than one potential use for the servos Stan has mentioned but with a coil/magnet mechanism is there a possibility of such interference?
P.S. for Matt: I'm surprised that you haven't got an answer from Scale City by now but if I can find my kit on Monday I'll power it up and let you know what it actually does.
I can't imagine how the little ngineering MARS simulator would affect anything about O-gauge command operation. There are tons of potential electrical noise sources with a lot more "juice" than that little uP could generate. I've used probably over a dozen of the ngineering MARS simulators, they've never been any kind of a problem.
I still don't see how hiding the servo or that big electronic module in a car with a detailed interior is going to work out, but I'll wait to see the result. I know if I were faced with this issue, neither of those would be my chosen solution.
I'll slip on my Nomex suit now. 
gunrunnerjohn posted:I can't imagine how the little ngineering MARS simulator would affect anything about O-gauge command operation. There are tons of potential electrical noise sources with a lot more "juice" than that little uP could generate. I've used probably over a dozen of the ngineering MARS simulators, they've never been any kind of a problem.
I still don't see how hiding the servo or that big electronic module in a car with a detailed interior is going to work out, but I'll wait to see the result. I know if I were faced with this issue, neither of those would be my chosen solution.
I'll slip on my Nomex suit now.
Come to think of it, I understand that the Ngineering Mars simulators are now the stock offering in 3rd Rail models that have Mars lights - or at least their 3-rail versions. Obviously that wouldn't be the case if they created any signal issues. I think that there is a method of wiring the module to the DC can motor power inputs.
Hiding the Scale City module in the OP's observation car: I mention this only because I meant to earlier.
Aside from the frame detail assembly, which if it's typical of Lionel aluminum passenger cars actually has various large spaces in it you can put wiring and some electronic components, there is always the roof of the body shell. In most of these cars, there is about 1/4 of an inch between the roof and the top of the window apertures. Even people (such as my occasional curious visitors) who peer inside an illuminated passenger car at window level will not see a circuit board mounted above the window.
But I am saying this without looking at the Keil Line module again, which I can't do until Monday (and nobody's holding their breath, including me).
Hancock52 posted:Come to think of it, I understand that the Ngineering Mars simulators are now the stock offering in 3rd Rail models that have Mars lights - or at least their 3-rail versions. Obviously that wouldn't be the case if they created any signal issues. I think that there is a method of wiring the module to the DC can motor power inputs.
I'm having a real hard time with wiring it to the DC motor inputs! That's a really noisy and variable voltage source, I seriously doubt anyone is trying to do that!
Hancock52 posted:Hiding the Scale City module in the OP's observation car: I mention this only because I meant to earlier.Aside from the frame detail assembly, which if it's typical of Lionel aluminum passenger cars actually has various large spaces in it you can put wiring and some electronic components, there is always the roof of the body shell. In most of these cars, there is about 1/4 of an inch between the roof and the top of the window apertures. Even people (such as my occasional curious visitors) who peer inside an illuminated passenger car at window level will not see a circuit board mounted above the window.
But I am saying this without looking at the Keil Line module again, which I can't do until Monday (and nobody's holding their breath, including me).
I make my comments based on what was posted as the kit in question.
That looks way bigger than I'd be wanting to try to hide in a car with a detailed interior!
FWIW, I regularly hide my little lighting regulator on the roof of the car and it's indeed out of sight. This module appears to be a LOT larger...
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Sorry, I haven't looked at the thread for a while. Yes, I have two Mars Lights from Kemtron. Even though one box says small both are large, though not very big. They are the best looking Mars lights I have ever seen in operation. I bought four of them years ago when they were new. I was into SP so used them with some SP engines. These two have never been out of the box. I ran them with a small battery and an "on/off" switch. One battery lasted for years and yes I will sell them. Don 
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Are they basically the same thing as Scale city MARS lights? Another thing I've thought about is getting a MARS light from an E or F unit and stick in it there.
I have no idea what Scale City Mars lights look like. All I know is they look real to me. They would look great in a E/F unit. What is nice about them is you can have them on and all power off on the engine. Don
Cool, You got a video of them so I can see what they look like?
the Kemtron circuit is one of the dual filiment lamp flip/flop circuits and came in large bulb and smaller bulb. It was one of the first if not the first electronic Mars light on the market. Used to have one in a 2 rail All Nation F7. Ran it off 2 AAA batteries, and yes the batteries lasted forever. They are a low voltage circuit and not made for track power. The lack of dual headlight on the old postwar ATSF F3's is my only gripe about them, I love having a Mars light on a F unit. Just never seen a postwar F3 with the door headlight added to see if it can be done and look "right". Mike
scale rail posted:Sorry, I haven't looked at the thread for a while. Yes, I have two Mars Lights from Kemtron. Even though one box says small both are large, though not very big. They are the best looking Mars lights I have ever seen in operation. I bought four of them years ago when they were new. I was into SP so used them with some SP engines. These two have never been out of the box. I ran them with a small battery and an "on/off" switch. One battery lasted for years and yes I will sell them. Don
Don, you have mail (to the address in your profile).
Trainlover9943 posted:Are they basically the same thing as Scale city MARS lights? Another thing I've thought about is getting a MARS light from an E or F unit and stick in it there.
1. I doubt that the Kemtron units are the same as Scale City's (judging by the pictures posted above) and in particular I think that the electronic unit might be square rather than elongated. Aside from that of course is the power source i.e. battery vs. track assuming I'm right in remembering how the Scale City version works.
2. In my never-ending search for a realistic Mars light simulator, I have been down the same road as you have thought of i.e. using one from an E or F unit. However I never tracked down anything that I could adapt. IMHO the best Mars light from Lionel is still that in the 6-14588 TMCC Santa Fe F3 A-B-A set that dates from 2005; later Legacy Mars light effects are really inferior for whatever reason. You can see the 6-14588 Mars lights in operation in this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hCtqH-KEOXs However, this does not do justice to running these at "night" when the effect looks truly impressive.
3. I actually have the PCB board used in these engines but it's all-inclusive in the sense of having both headlights and the marker lights on it and I could never figure out how to wire it to function other than with the engines' own TMCC boards:
4. One final example: The video below is of the conversion I did in a 3rd Rail E7, which came stock with a blinking LED that was meant to represent the Mars light. 3rd Rail has now changed to Ngineering simulators and that is what I put in this engine. You can clearly see the difference not only in operation but also color as the original LED was a mismatched cool white. I still slightly prefer the Lionel effect:
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Hancock52 posted:Trainlover9943 posted:Are they basically the same thing as Scale city MARS lights? Another thing I've thought about is getting a MARS light from an E or F unit and stick in it there.
1. I doubt that the Kemtron units are the same as Scale City's (judging by the pictures posted above) and in particular I think that the electronic unit might be square rather than elongated. Aside from that of course is the power source i.e. battery vs. track assuming I'm right in remembering how the Scale City version works.
2. In my never-ending search for a realistic Mars light simulator, I have been down the same road as you have thought of i.e. using one from an E or F unit. However I never tracked down anything that I could adapt. IMHO the best Mars light from Lionel is still that in the 6-14588 TMCC Santa Fe F3 A-B-A set that dates from 2005; later Legacy Mars light effects are really inferior for whatever reason. You can see the 6-14588 Mars lights in operation in this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hCtqH-KEOXs However, this does not do justice to running these at "night" when the effect looks truly impressive.
3. I actually have the PCB board used in these engines but it's all-inclusive in the sense of having both headlights and the marker lights on it and I could never figure out how to wire it to function other than with the engines' own TMCC boards:
4. One final example: The video below is of the conversion I did in a 3rd Rail E7, which came stock with a blinking LED that was meant to represent the Mars light. 3rd Rail has now changed to Ngineering simulators and that is what I put in this engine. You can clearly see the difference not only in operation but also color as the original LED was a mismatched cool white. I still slightly prefer the Lionel effect:
I'm stuck between using the scale city kit and just using the MARS set up from an engine. I got to thinking about it and if I can find a PCB from an engine with a MARS and red marker lights I in theory could light the whole back section of the car.
Trainlover9943 posted:
I'm stuck between using the scale city kit and just using the MARS set up from an engine. I got to thinking about it and if I can find a PCB from an engine with a MARS and red marker lights I in theory could light the whole back section of the car.
I had that idea too but never got anywhere with the wiring. Part of the reason is that the PCB pictured above is designed so that the lighting operates in accordance with the loco's direction - Mars light off in reverse and markers change from white (or green) to red with direction.
Frankly I think it's simpler to use a simulator for the Mars light and separate lights for the markers wired to a power source that keeps them on. Let me see if I can find the Scale City kit tomorrow to see how/if it works and how big the module really is.
When I use the www.ngineering.com MARS simulator, I just power it from the headlight circuit. That way it turns off when you reverse as you'd expect it to do. I'm curious, why would you want the MARS light to stay on in reverse?
gunrunnerjohn posted:When I use the www.ngineering.com MARS simulator, I just power it from the headlight circuit. That way it turns off when you reverse as you'd expect it to do. I'm curious, why would you want the MARS light to stay on in reverse?
Just for looks really. I think it would look neat.
Is there a Rule-17-like protocol where the Mars light motion turns off (but light stays on) when the engine is stopped or in reverse?
Can't tell the scale but this video shows some guy selling a moving Mars light that runs on 2.5V DC ... so presumably for model trains. Would require deep pockets though...
To each his own but what catches my eye on videos of the prototype is the moving beam projected on the surroundings (rather than what you see looking at the light itself). I'd think any of the electronic simulators using wide-angle surface-mount LEDs (or incandescent bulbs) whether one or multiple lamps cannot simulate this projected moving beam.
stan2004 posted:Is there a Rule-17-like protocol where the Mars light motion turns off (but light stays on) when the engine is stopped or in reverse?
Can't tell the scale but this video shows some guy selling a moving Mars light that runs on 2.5V DC ... so presumably for model trains. Would require deep pockets though...
Deep pockets indeed, $395!!! 
No mention of what scale it is, but I suspect larger than O-gauge.
stan2004 posted:To each his own but what catches my eye on videos of the prototype is the moving beam projected on the surroundings (rather than what you see looking at the light itself). I'd think any of the electronic simulators using wide-angle surface-mount LEDs (or incandescent bulbs) whether one or multiple lamps cannot simulate this projected moving beam.
Sure, but one has to live within the limitations of what's reasonable with an O-gauge locomotive light fixture. I like something better than a blinking light, but I can't really see trying to actually create the moving beam true to life.
stan2004 posted:Is there a Rule-17-like protocol where the Mars light motion turns off (but light stays on) when the engine is stopped or in reverse?
At the risk of causing Mars light overdose, this subject has been raised before and it appears that prototypical use varied by individual railroad so there's no universal protocol:
https://ogrforum.com/t...ed-use-of-mars-light
https://ogrforum.com/t...on-steam-locomotives
gunrunnerjohn posted:When I use the www.ngineering.com MARS simulator, I just power it from the headlight circuit. That way it turns off when you reverse as you'd expect it to do. I'm curious, why would you want the MARS light to stay on in reverse?
On my 3rd Rail engines, I tried tapping into the headlight circuit and found that it did not have enough "juice" to power both the headlight and the Ngineering simulator. Nor did the existing "blinker" power supply work with that simulator. I am not particularly bothered by the light being on in both forward and reverse although I'd have preferred that it was off in reverse.
I've been experimenting with doing this literally for years and there is another old thread where some of us compared notes on various options:
If these were 3rd Rail TMCC equipped locomotives, you probably just wired something wrong, plenty of power to run the MARS light, I've done half a dozen of them.
I remember that thread you mentioned, you'll note that I was a contributer. I finally settled on the www.ngineering.com MARS simulator as it was cheap enough not to bother building my own. I don't think you're going to do much better than the options in that thread for a single LED. When you start talking about mechanically moving the light, I pretty much check out, that's WAY too complex for the minimal improvement IMO.
gunrunnerjohn posted:..When you start talking about mechanically moving the light, I pretty much check out, that's WAY too complex for the minimal improvement IMO.
No argument here.
But I see this as a discussion about options and from what I can tell nothing has changed since the above "Make a Better MARS LIGHT" thread from 2012!
My point is perhaps the fixed lamp simulation has reached the end of the road and is as good as it gets (or as good as it will ever get). So it started with a basic blinking bulb, then a dual-filament bulb to simulate some back-forth motion, then LEDs to reduce size/power, then electronics to ramp the brightness, then even more sophisticated electronics probably using software in a microprocessor chip to ramp the brightness across multiple LEDs.
So what I'm imagining (and talk is indeed cheap) are advances in electro-mechanism miniaturization along with companion electronics to control them. For example, a few years ago Lionel introduced a swinging bell mechanism on some higher priced engines. To some this was the greatest thing since sliced bread, to others not so much. But the point is it was made possible by modern electronics mated with miniaturized electro-mechanisms and improved magnets. To wit, take a look at Lionel's patent on a swinging bell mechanism from 1943! A mechanical moving light is very similar - a slowly sweeping back-and-forth motion. This would undoubtedly be a one-off and likely require some custom parts from a 3-D printer which also has become a practical tool for the modeling enthusiast.
Well, I look forward to seeing that Stan, but until someone else does it, I'll stick with the current options. The three-LED www.ngineering.com MARS simulator is pretty impressive, but it's a PITA to get the three LED's in a reasonable space. I did one, mostly out of curiosity, and I had to use fiber to get the three LED outputs to the light assembly. It looked great, but I deemed it too much work for the gain in appearance. How they managed to get it into an N-scale headlight escapes me! 
stan2004 posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:..When you start talking about mechanically moving the light, I pretty much check out, that's WAY too complex for the minimal improvement IMO.
No argument here.
But I see this as a discussion about options and from what I can tell nothing has changed since the above "Make a Better MARS LIGHT" thread from 2012!
Not quite - as far as Lionel is concerned they've gone DOWNHILL in terms of this particular (Mars) lighting effect. Legacy isn't a patch on the TMCC effect - a case in point is my Legacy SP Alco A-A set, where the effect is feeble, to say the least. But then I'm obsessive about realism in this very narrow respect.
I really must fix my TMCC Veranda Turbine one day; I dimly recall it has a combined Mars and hazard light function with the latter coming on in red when the engine is stopped. Very cool, IMHO, and never repeated in any Lionel engine I can think of.
My point is perhaps the fixed lamp simulation has reached the end of the road and is as good as it gets (or as good as it will ever get). So it started with a basic blinking bulb, then a dual-filament bulb to simulate some back-forth motion, then LEDs to reduce size/power, then electronics to ramp the brightness, then even more sophisticated electronics probably using software in a microprocessor chip to ramp the brightness across multiple LEDs.
So what I'm imagining (and talk is indeed cheap) are advances in electro-mechanism miniaturization along with companion electronics to control them. For example, a few years ago Lionel introduced a swinging bell mechanism on some higher priced engines. To some this was the greatest thing since sliced bread, to others not so much. But the point is it was made possible by modern electronics mated with miniaturized electro-mechanisms and improved magnets. To wit, take a look at Lionel's patent on a swinging bell mechanism from 1943! A mechanical moving light is very similar - a slowly sweeping back-and-forth motion. This would undoubtedly be a one-off and likely require some custom parts from a 3-D printer which also has become a practical tool for the modeling enthusiast.
That patent is an interesting time warp read. The Legacy/VL swinging bell (which I know some people detest) is a pretty simple in mechanical terms (why, even I understand it). But as GRJ has pointed out elsewhere, the trick is synchronizing the sound and motion. In that respect, Legacy has certainly succeeded. In any case I take your point about mechanics and indeed 3D printing. I have made a lot of use of 3D printers but not servos in O scale models.
Now I am shutting up until I dig out the Scale City kit.
OK, here is my Keil Line Mars light simulator (this is an original Keil Line product I think I got from Walthers but the Scale City repro looks to be the same):
To start with, the electronic module is indeed huge; 2-1/4" long x 1/2" high x nearly 5/8" wide. By way of extreme contrast, below it I have placed an Ngineering Mars Light simulator. I can't see that the module could be completely hidden in the undercarriage or roof of the observation car Matt has; it would have to be somewhere in the interior but apart from the car's vestibule area I can't think where. The wire leads at each end are a little over foot long.
What does the Mars effect look like? Note that this kit has a single incandescent red bulb. So the light intensity is nowhere near that of even a small LED. Still, it's a nice effect although possibly more like a slow flash rather than the oscillation seen in more recent Mars lighting features:
Now for the rub. The instructions that came with this are copied below. You'll note that they say the module can be powered either by a 9V battery or by being wired to "the trucks." I think this indicates the kit was made for 2-rail DC operation. In the video above the module was connected to a 9V battery. One of the black input wires is copper and the other is white metal. It does not matter which wire is connected to which battery terminal; the module operates either way. Allowing for my ignorance of matters electrical, I think this might mean that the module has a bridge rectifier onboard but I am not going to try running it with AC track power until someone more knowledgeable tells me that's possible:
If it won't run on AC power of it's own accord a VAC-9VDC power source would be required. These are available but what's the point of having yet another component to run this already oversize simulator? Frankly, using the Ngineering simulator is a better option for the light effect.
Matt, if it helps I have a spare Ngineering simulator that it would take me about 10 minutes to fix up with input and output leads and a red LED. You're welcome this but you'd have to source and attach an appropriate power supply, as to which I defer to GRJ for expert advice.
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I hooked mine up to AC track power and so far it seems to be working fine.
My option for power would probably be a module that I use for such purposes. This is my "universal" power supply that I just put the regulator of the voltage desired into. The choices are typically 5V, 6V, 8V, 9V, 10V, and 12V for 18V track power. For the standard www.ngineering.com MARS simulator, I favor the 8V option, splits the current (and temperature rise) load between the TO-92 linear regulator and the on-board regulator on the MARS board. Since the MARS board is so small, I don't like to feed it the maximum voltage, the linear regulator on it is very tiny.
No magic to the supply, it's just a simple linear supply with a choke for DCS compatibility. I can also stuff a CL-2 constant current regulator on the board for 20 or 25 ma constant current to light one or two LED's.
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BANDOB posted:I hooked mine up to AC track power and so far it seems to be working fine.
I'll try that myself when I'm feeling braver!
BTW, here are the cast parts of the kit. The Mars light housing is part of the gate casting. These parts are nice enough in themselves quite apart from the lighting. The Keils made great stuff; good that Scale City has carried on:
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Hancock52 posted:OK, here is my Keil Line Mars light simulator (this is an original Keil Line product I think I got from Walthers but the Scale City repro looks to be the same):
To start with, the electronic module is indeed huge; 2-1/4" long x 1/2" high x nearly 5/8" wide. By way of extreme contrast, below it I have placed an Ngineering Mars Light simulator. I can't see that the module could be completely hidden in the undercarriage or roof of the observation car Matt has; it would have to be somewhere in the interior but apart from the car's vestibule area I can't think where. The wire leads at each end are a little over foot long.
What does the Mars effect look like? Note that this kit has a single incandescent red bulb. So the light intensity is nowhere near that of even a small LED. Still, it's a nice effect although possibly more like a slow flash rather than the oscillation seen in more recent Mars lighting features:
Now for the rub. The instructions that came with this are copied below. You'll note that they say the module can be powered either by a 9V battery or by being wired to "the trucks." I think this indicates the kit was made for 2-rail DC operation. In the video above the module was connected to a 9V battery. One of the black input wires is copper and the other is white metal. It does not matter which wire is connected to which battery terminal; the module operates either way. Allowing for my ignorance of matters electrical, I think this might mean that the module has a bridge rectifier onboard but I am not going to try running it with AC track power until someone more knowledgeable tells me that's possible:
If it won't run on AC power of it's own accord a VAC-9VDC power source would be required. These are available but what's the point of having yet another component to run this already oversize simulator? Frankly, using the Ngineering simulator is a better option for the light effect.
Matt, if it helps I have a spare Ngineering simulator that it would take me about 10 minutes to fix up with input and output leads and a red LED. You're welcome this but you'd have to source and attach an appropriate power supply, as to which I defer to GRJ for expert advice.
I think the Keil line kit light looks fine to me. I'll just use that. That Ngineering board is WAY to tiny for me.
Personally, I think the small one from Ngineering has a much better effect. It also uses an LED and you get a really bright MARS light.
As a postscript or footnote to this thread, I thought I'd add a demonstration of the Kemtron Mars Light kit.
Someone has said that this kit was made in the 70s. I got this one from fellow forum member Scale Rail (Don), which means that it came all the way from Hawaii by fast clipper vessel and legacy Milwaukee Road transport.
It's certainly retro/vintage in appearance:
I also like Kemtron's return and replacement policy (last paragraph in next photo), which you'd be hard pressed to get from any manufacturer these days:
I could not resist wiring it up to see if it worked and how. The bulb is a round, three wire dual filament model. The video short below does not do it justice but you get the idea that it produces bright alternating flashes. Not really the equivalent of a modern variable intensity LED simulator but a nice piece from yesteryear nonetheless, which could go well in my Dad's old Santa Fe F3:
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I'm not impressed unless the video doesn't really capture the full effect. K-Line's MAR module with two filament bulbs did a lot better job. The www.ngineering.com MARS looks way better as well.
I don't know if you totally found what you are looking for. If not try Jim at Richmond Controls, http://www.richmondcontrols.com. Email him what you are looking to do, he will give you a price and will build the board for you. Power, ground and you are done. I found him at Trainfest a few years ago. He has a nice display that has great looking beacons, strobes, MARS lights, emergency vehicle lights, you name it. AC or DC power. I had him build a few for my HO things a few years ago, very happy with the effects.
