Scale Couplers Vs Traditional Couplers

The scale couplers if they are Kadee or a derivative may very well be more reliable than the typical highrail couplers.

I put kadee couplers on my freight cars left the claws on the passenger cars,,,i use a car with a kadee at one end and a claw on the other between the train and eng, your curves must be o54 or better for best results. they are very reliable, atlas cars are the easiest to install,,,the rest take a bit of work cutting the claw off the truck.  having said all that they look way better. if you operate they work flawlessly,,,if your thing is to just run trains around leave the claws on ! 054 switches minimum as well,,,whew !! conrail john, oh and if you go that route kadee 805 are the most bang for the buck, you can find great deals on them at 2rail o train shows

From what i can tell the golden gate depot cars have all of the foundation for kadee couplers and the "claws" just un screw which is nice. Now the smallest radius at both clubs is O-72 and the biggest is O-112 so the radius issue should not be a problem switches are huge Ross switches to support the big locomotives at high speed. Now some one said to me that the kadee 805 are the older style and the newer style 740 are easier to install do you have any experience with 740. Do you have a preference for a beginner. 

If you are just starting out, go with the 740. It's the newer scale sized coupler with hidden knuckle spring.

 

As far as the GGD cars are concerned, Scott Mann has mounting pads for those cars that are made specifically for the Kadee coupler. You still need to remove the claw for the Kadee to fit. Get the pads and screws from GGD if you decide to do it.

 

From personal experience, I converted my GGD 14 car SP Daylight set to Kadees. It was a lot of work and fine tuning to get them to run on 072 curves without issues. My Super Chief set from GGD will NOT get converted. It's not worth all the work, and the cars are already very close together. I did however remove the ugly thumb tack from the 3 rail coupler on the Super Chief set.

 

I just started a series of videos on the Kadee coupler. Check them out on YouTube. There is also a video of the Super Chief set running on the San Diego Club layout and you can see they look pretty good without changing the couplers.

 

 

part 2

 

 

There are several videos on my YouTube channel (screen name Laidoffsick) relating to Kadee couplers vs. the 3 rail lobster claw coupler. Check em out, and send me an email if you have any questions that you didn't get answered in any of those videos.

I am going to have to see Scott any way next week to get some 3rail wheels for one of my cars his shop is about 30-40 min away from me i will also grab some shims for the kedee couplers while i am there and slowly take my time to convert my passenger cars. I did see these videos before i posted this topic that prompted me to really consider be doing the change over. I know that my RPO will have to act as a transaction car for my locomotive.

Just ask Scott for the Kadee mounting brackets and screws. I don't know what set of cars you have, but most of them are pre-drilled for the brackets. When you use Kadees with those brackets, you can also drill new holes to change the distance between cars.

The kadees obviously look better if you can see them, but many passenger car sets have such close fitting diaphrams that no one will ever notice the couplers.  

 

The first layout i run on is a modular layout which goes to different train shows and outdoor venues but the layout if far from having level track.

If you have as much as 1/4 inch of vertical irregularity on your layout, the kadees will detach while the standard couplers will likely stay attached.  This has been the experience of running on an outdoor layout built on stakes and pea gravel. Even sections built on fence posts become too uneven with weathering for 3RS operation. 

 

Now my Local club layout mostly level track

Put scale couplers on your freight cars and use them on the local layout, and take a passenger consist with standard couplers "claws" when you are on the road.

 

i like the 805 because you can replace the spring if need be,,,,not so on the 700 series....700s are real nice to look at but for the cost....the 805s were the standard. just me


- John Penca
440-227-1208

I am not sure you need as much as 1/4" vertical offset. If you are running at speed a sudden 1/8" offset can throw the car up far enough to uncouple. We had about a 250 linear foot layout last year and there was one place next to a bridge that would uncouple the cars. Lowering the speed they would stay coupled.

 

Modular layouts are the real test of Kadees. If you have smooth trackwork they work fine and may even outperform traditional couplers but that is not always the case.

 

Pete

As a member of the now disbanded Independent Hi-Railers, Midwest Division modular layout group, I can tell you that we had many more problems with those darned "lobster claw" couplers coming apart (opening and slip-overs) than with ANY of the long freight trains equipped with Kadee #805 couplers. The uneven make-up of such a large modular layout, NEVER effected the Kadee equipped equipment.

Hot, you guys had the best track work I have ever seen on a modular layout. At least the equal to most home layouts. We use bridge tracks which make it easier to set up but leave a lot to be desired for operation.

 

Pete 

I never even considered the little extra cost of the 740 over the 805. My average freight car is about $50 these days.... so another dollar or 2....

 

Unless you drop the cars or lay them on their sides on a towel or foam, those 805 springs shouldn't come out. Of all the 740 couplers I've bought so far (over 100), I have had 1 bad coupler. The internal spring was bad out of the package. 1/100 ain't bad for quality control.

Our modular club has a few members that use Kadee couplers (I can see a spring, so I assume they are 805s based on this conversation). We use bridge tracks, which as mentioned above can lead to less than perfect trackwork. I can't recall ever seeing a train using the Kadees come apart on our layout. I've had trains come apart using the following types of couplers: postwar (and later) Lionel knuckles, prewar Lionel latch, Marx metal scissor, and Marx tab and slot (the track has to be REALLY bad for that to go wrong).

 

Typically, the guys running the Kadee equipped stuff are running their trains a lot slower than I do, which has got to help with the reliability. Compared to the trains I occasionally run with lobster claws, their trains are usually shorter too.

 

J White

 

I've run 50-60 car freight trains with Kadees at the San Diego club, and never had an issue with the couplers. All of my cars are also weighted to the NMRA standards, so it's a very heavy train, considering a 40' boxcar weighs in at 1lb.  

Kadee couplers would never hold up running on the NJ Hirailers layout.

Why ?

I second that why?

 

When the Independent Hi-Railers, Midwest Division, used to have a really BIG modular layout, i.e. L shape, 92 feet one way and 79 feet the other way (used a number of times at Trainfest in Milwaukee), we still didn't have any problems with 50 and 60 car freight trains, all equipped with Kadee couplers. 

What about some shelf couplers? Is Kadee producing them for O too?

  Maybe try a few trial runs with just a pair of "adapter cars" (KDs coupled together, lobsters facing to the front and rear). Move the two around as a pair within a train to find out if they can handle the track & full length operation.

 

A test of that sort, with only a pair of Kadees in the train, is only going to tell you whether the cars with Kadees will make it through the curves nothing more.

ok to the person who said they have ran on the San Diego club my local club layout is based off of there track plan and we went from there to fine tune it to our room b i believe our biggest loop is 600 feet of track so it is a nice jog around the layout and the switches are ross and we made sure the are big to support the big locomotives at high speed.

 

Now the modular layout i run also on is the Golden Gate Lionel Rail Road club there are some pictures on the ogr form form last year when we ran at Talbots Toy Land. The layout has some age on it and we do try to keep up with the track work often but club members have found out this layout has moods some times. Sense this layout moves all the time and the modules are stored in a hot and cold trailer 90% of the time. The expansion and contraction of the layout always is knocking our track out of level. Trying to keep up with a perfectly level layout is nearly impossible when it comes to this layout what i am thinking of doing is installing the kadee couplers the 740 on my passenger cars and run them on that layout a couple of times and see how everything reacts. I will keep the "claws" on my parts bin that i take to shows and if they become a problem then i will change them back the "claws" all it is is two screws on the golden gate passenger cars. I do like the idea of having scale couplers on some of my rolling stock for my other layout sense they have the curves to support the scale couplers and level track.

I have had more problems with claw couplers than Kadees on my home layout.  My minimum curve at home is O-72.  

 

Joe

I'll third that, WHY?  I've personal run trains in the 50 to 70 car trains with all Kadee.  Can't do that with those oversized lobster claws.

If you have to ask why Kadee couplers would never hold up running on the NJ Hirailers layout then I guess you've never seen it. Its' not a 80' flat modular layout with a few curves. I think anyone who know our layout would agree.

Good morning Paul

 

I'm  not trying to be smart --- about this. I just want to know so I can avoid problems. What issues are you having? rough track? sharp curves?steep grades? I have not been to see the display in person.

 

Clem k 

As someone who has both types, I can attest that Kadee's are 100% reliable.  On the other hand, my Lionel El Capitan set had a passenger car that I had to wrap a garbage bag twist tie around the lobster claw.  Otherwise it would keep opening on its own, and that's on an o-72 loop!

 

Since Paul Romano is refusing to share any details, its fair to assume his is a troll post.

I've not seen the NJHR layout in person yet either but would be curious as to why Kadee's would not be preferred.

 

Are there none of your members who run them?

Then you folks must have exceptionally bad track work or know little about standards for coupler height.

 

Rusty

 

Not fair at all. You should reread the thread and then delete your post. At least four of us have said that if the track is rough enough, common on many modular layouts, the vertical change will uncouple Kadees. Its not a matter of them breaking nor opening by themselves. On occasion our club has setup as many as 140 modules. Thats 140 places where there might be a difference in height between two modules. The majority of places we setup are not flat as a bowling alley. 

 

Pete

Roberttrains92,

Since you're not sure what to do, why not on your next visit to run your cars, take both. Run both separately. That'll let you see if there are any issues with either, you'll also answer the question on which coupler to go with. Let us know what you decide and why.

 

I agree with you!

I use dummy scale couplers on most of my passenger trains.  I have my reasons, but the dummies I use have slightly more height than does a Kadee - they will tolerate ups and downs better, and they never uncouple other than vertically.

 

I have trackwork that will not tolerate even a 1/32" error in mounting.  An 84' coach simply amplifies the problem - a slight change in trackwork height means an uncoupled train.

 

It happens infrequently, but when it does, I get the old Kadee coupler height gauge and reset either the truck or the coupler to make it work.  I of course would never consider the larger Lionel style coupler, but I select the scale dummies with the highest knuckle dimension to attempt to avoid these problems.

This is my first opportunity to return to this thread. A picture or video is worth a thousand words. Before everyone says I'm not sharing any details, go to www.njhirailers.com and www.youtube.com and please look at videos of the layout. Its' 185' feet long by 50' wide. There are numerous, grades, reverse curves, etc. Not to mention the helix on the Red and White Lines which probably that alone would blow out the Kadees to say the least. So, before you blindly concur Kadees would be 100% reliable please take look. You guys may even like what you see.  

I take exception with both your comments. I have been running both Kadees and lobster claw couplers on a  carpet Central layout from ***l. granted I have a wood base on my carpet, then I am using white bathroom rugs to simulate snow cover. To make it even more eye opening for you two, I running fast track. Now I have had more problems with the lobster claws uncoupling then my cars equipped with kadees. not for touching the center rail, but open up due to being loose where connecting to the trucks. Simple fix : tighten the screws and or replace the springs. my Kadees the only issue I've had has been due to the spring coming out(Plastic). The metal couplers no issues at all. Now my layout has some grade changes in it. The turn leading up to a bridge and leading it to the yard which sits 2 inches below the mainline. I have never had issues with any couplers at those sections. So don't belittle the modular set ups as they have their own set of unique issues  nor the guys who run carpet central. I am real sure that I could find issues with your layouts as nobody has the perfect lay out other than Hot water (CB&Q). One more rub. I am now starting to switch over to scale wheel sets as I have worked out the issue of 2R wheels derailing in reverse on Fast Track switches. ( The frogs are where the derailments happen.)

 

Doug

@ Martin H. Since you have deemed me "as refusing to share any details and assumed me a troll post" I am under the assumption you haven't read my later posts?

 

None of what you mentioned would be a problem. If your trackwork is bad, then that would be an issue. Do the NJ Hi-railers have bad trackwork?