Scale Couplers Vs Traditional Couplers

Here is a layout that might be comparable to the NJ layout in train capacity and grades. It says they've pulled a train with more than 1,000 cars. I'm guessing they used scale couplers but it would be interesting to know. When I was in 3 rail I used the lobster claw couplers and they stunk compared to Kadees for pulling ability and otherwise.

http://www.chi-townunionstation.com/

@ Martin H. Believe what you want. Every member has a right to their opinion. Thank you very much for your insight. I stand by what I said and I'm done with this post.

Paul

Watch laidoffsicks videos on the Kadees. It actually answered a few question about 060 or less curves in Part III even thought it was about mounting on engines. Best suggestion is to the metal couplers with the metal boxes. run a six car consist ( one needs to be a transition car (Claw on one end and kadee on the other) and see where you have issue. I think you will find that you will not. Also something to think about. You will be able to connect cars with the lobster claw coupler with Kadees. Atlas is the best weaver is real tight. Otherwise I would recommend that you contact Laidoffsick on the side to save yourself some grief.

Doug

@ Doug Thank you. As I said I'm done with this post. I'll take a look at the video.

I'm not at liberty to authorize this, but maybe someone with a 100 car train equipped with Kadees will run it on the NJ Hirailers layout on the Red Line, up and around the helix, and put it to the test once and for all. 

Our trackwork is impeccable. What Paul is alluding to is the fact that the smaller couplers won't hold up to long trains with steep grades, sharp turns, and helix's that make the train wrap around itself. Obviously you haven't been out to our layout.

Mathew

Matt,

Tight curves might be a problem. It seems like your contentions are based on the notion that you just think the bigger couplers are necessarily stronger and better, but have you or Paul ever tried Kadees? I've used both and my experience has been that the lobster claws are LESS reliable with long heavy trains. I will say the last I've used the claws were 15 years ago. I've never had a Kadee break in a train in 15 years, though. I had countless claws tied up, banded and glued.

I'm a bit confused over the helix issue. I've seen VERY large helixes in HO in order to gain height, and if those guys can operate such long trains with such light weight cars, I just don't see why it wouldn't work in 3-Rail O with larger diameter curves. You folks are obviously NOT talking under 072, correct? Otherwise those huge articulated model would NOT negotiate the helix either.

Hello Paul, Matt

   I have been warmly welcomed by you and other members to your club many times and thank you again for that. I have been lucky enough to have had some of my cars equipped with Kadees run on your layout with no problems. Of course it was not a long trains as discussed here. The curves and helix on your layout are much larger and gentler than a lot home layouts that I have seen where kadees have been used so that is a non issue in my mind.  There are a few 60" curves on mine that work with 50' scale cars just fine.  The grades on your layout are no worse than on a lot of home layouts.  The club truly is magnificent and yes the trackwork is excellent. The last test would be a long train on the NJ Hirailers layout. Having seen long trains on modules work, i would bet it would be fine also. Hopefully I haven't stepped on any toes and hope to visit again.

Best

Ray Marion

i been a 2 railer since 1975 and all i use is kadee's on my cars and locos. never had 1 break and have run as many as 80 cars on a friends layout without a problem. they are very reliable.

1.--Thanks for the answer about the shelf locks. Guess Ill have to wait. 

 2.--No, but 3 cars(w/caboose) wouldn't be much of a test.

Kadee has had the best scale couplers for generations. But in my experience, size also puts performance at risk on occasion. If the performance is adequate for you, and scale is the issue, couplers by Kadee should obviously be seriously considered for a better appearance, and high quality. If they were awful, they wouldn't sell. When they are "pure gold" I'm all in. 

 Most of my personal Kadee experience was older, or smaller scale, flat, or not even on my equipment, what was wasn't "great". Nothing close to an obvious performance increase over a new, or well tuned, lobster claw.  

  I have a few old non-op KDs on "adapter cars". Body mounting pulls differently, affects the body roll in curves more. Frame to truck play & height had to be set too. Only out performed my worst L.claws test building grade leads too short.(which I still found astounding for reduction in grab area. Not better, but best scale). Hopefully they are equal, or just "best" now. I test everything I can before fully committing.  

 I'm to size limited to run more than 30, and good LC couplers are a must towards head end on grades. Tight turn were not an issue for me. Test for vertical grab, that's all Im saying!

The one with the ability to work best on long trains without failing in general is likely Kadee. But some lobster claws do have enough quality/strength to do the job, others are weak. Kadee needs "tuning" & work. If equal $ and effort is applied to tune a better quality LC what is your result? I think which to use on a long pull performance basis becomes a bit of a coin toss if compared apples to apples. But being size handicapped its really just a guess. 

 I think, say a 36"dia curve, in HO is a more to scale than one in O. So 36" O is "sharper" than 36" HO.   

I do realize this is a three rail scale post, and scale is not always my focus, but it does interest me. Performance was the issue, remaining coupled is the focus, grades are mentioned. I don't feel any suggestion to test first is a "product bash". Tried to make that obvious. But now I still feel as though I'm in your crosshairs at the moment for daring to suggest tuning a LC to perform better instead of going KD while in a 3rs post...especially after some experienced folks who do know the layout, and other KD users have also said "no KD" directly for that layout. I didn't say "well there your have it, its real cause "xx" says so, I said it should be tested....  Will I now need my yellow and brown shirt today? the Charlie Brown copy? Padding? A goalie mask?     

Adriatic,

It took a while for it to be shown that the guys from the NJ Hirailers have not tried Kadees, yet they dismissed the couplers outright as not being up to the task. The questions that were asked of them to get to that point were legit. Obviously, testing would be the answer before they dismiss the Kadees. I'm not sure if anyone here has come out on the side of saying they would necessarily work, but they might have and I might have missed it.

Thanks for the entertainment.  So is this a belief system based on couplers?  Is there a Second Amendment remedy available here?

As far as I'm concerned, it is a simple discussion, Bob. 

I agree. Plus, I'm beginning to think that Adriatic has never actually tried Kadee couplers, especially in O SCALE.

I've been using Kadees for the last five years on trains of various lengths and have never had a false uncoupling incident or knuckle failure. Keep in mind that this is on a club layout where:

• The track has uneven spots due to age, moisture changes due to our proximity to the ocean, thermal expansion/contraction.
• Curves are relatively sharp in a couple of spots -- 36" radius/O-72.
• The layout is designed for 3-rail trains even though I (and others) run scale wheeled equipment.
• Trains are usually 25 cars or less but at NMRA weight are still pretty heavy.

I have had some Atlas scale couplers fail due to "zinc rot" and have been replacing them with Kadees when that happens.

Kadee couplers are well designed and work well. I haven't had any problems with them. Contrast that with the 3-rail couplers from ALL of the manufacturer with which I have had (which is why I'm slowly but surely switching to Kadees):

• False uncoupling. Some have been remedied by putting a drop of oil in the recess of the knuckle so the pin goes all the way in.
• Broken knuckles. Usually caused by zinc rot.
• Inconsistent height. This sometimes results in the thumbtack kissing the center rail and sparking on die cast trucks.
• Inconsistent coupling -- some you can couple at 10smph (I've coupled Kadees at 3smph) while some won't couple at all (K-Line to just about anyone else).

You can run a very long train (like the 100-foot train in the video on another thread) with just about any coupler if you're using pushers at the rear because that takes coupler tension out of the equation. The real test is when you only have power up front and NMRA weight cars in the train.

This is turned quite comical. Strong opinions from people who have never tried Kadee couplers, arguing with people with personal experience.  

Chris, HW, I cant disagree with me touching on what may be obvious points for most. But someone once told me "The best teachers assume the student knows nothing". I tend to apply that everywhere. No disrespectful/arrogant intentions if it reads that way.

  HW, Think what you like I guess. I could go into more detail but basics of my limited experience are there. I claimed to be no expert and at least hinted at my weaknesses. I removed my toy goggles, and I don't normally have the "drivers" in my personality to want to push form over function. Or imply someone is a liar just because they do not have the same exact opinion, or have had the same experiences.

I'll assume the "old assume joke" doesn't apply to me this time, but I will think it over more. "Food for thought" for my own self reflection is welcome. I might have paid "Lucy" the full nickel, and a shiny one too, but felt my "dirty two cents" was more appropriate, and expected. You get what you pay for, no good deed..,etc. etc.    

 I definitely prefer running trains over trolling. But I do bite & get hooked on occasion. Aspergers is a real possibility too. I hope its just me . 

well presented thanks for the tips.

for those who are wondering i have converted my passenger to kadee 740. I ran on the layout and it seems to be ok for now but that was only about 30 min and the ground was pretty level i have show this weekend and will be running the cars for at least a hour on questionable ground due to we don't know where we are setting up the layout. Will keep you updated on the final verdict. I did also remember i did a train view video of the layout which might give you a perspective on how out of alignment the track can be and how un even if you see a gap in the track in the video that is a removable pice of track for dismantling purposes.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...KYhkh_UosauoDmB-rTnA