I am not an MTH historian but was an early customer. I think I have one of the first and it is Westinghouse I think. It is a very neat car, very close to scale and expands like the prototype. They later made John Deere,ABB, Electromotive, and some others. To my knowledge Lionel never made one.

Dale H

To the best of my knowledge Lionel never produced a Schnabel car.

The first MTH Schnabel was the Westinghouse "WECX203" (20-98232) cataloged in 2000 Vol I.


Ron

MTH has manufactured quite a few Schnabel flatcars over the past 10 years. Never have seen a Lionel Schnabel flatcar.

I have the (W) schnabel car) shown in the photo earlier in the thread and its MTH. About thirty years ago, when I was with Westinghouse, I actually rode about a mile on this car -- standing on the back platform as it was backed into a generating plant with a big EHV transformer to deliver.

i always liked the look of these cars,but i never ever saw 1 in person.and never knew what are they for???

Westinghouse's was used to haul large power transformers (with insulators and anciallary equipment removed, etc. A Schabel car has no support under whatever it carries. The two end pieces hook to the item and carry it about 6 inches above the rail, making it a part of the structure and depending on its strength. The gray transformer in the middle of the MTH unit will actually remove (unhook) and you can hook up the two ends in the configuration the car would have on its way back to the plant, with nothing in between them. Schnabel cars have also been used to carry large castings of nuke power plants, etc.: anything big, but strong (since it has to hook into being part of the structure of the car while being transporter.

Lee is dead on.

The real neat thing about the Schabel car is that the item carried provides part of the structural support for the car.

The Schnabel car can also be configured to carry a load that will not form part of the structure, simply by constructing a cage or platform to carry the cargo. The two photos below illustrate the concept.


Here's another one from the Czech Republic, also using a cradle for the load:

And one from China, without a load, being pulled by a steam locomotive! The four cars that look like passenger coaches are the support cars for the Schnabel.


I was surprised to learn that the Swiss built a car of this sort in 1957. Here's some info on it:
Swiss Schnabel Car
For lots and lots of pictures of Schnabel cars, go to this website:
Schnabel cars

I will be ordering the PRR version, I doubt very much the PRR ever had one but I do not care if my three rail track does not mind. The PRR version is very nice and I will not need a special caboose for it.
It would be nice if MTH made a Westinghouse caboose again for my Westinghouse version, can not get one on the bay now unless you are a millionaire.
OK MTH please do a CSX version.

The Schnabel concept first appeared in Europe. The car designs in as much as load mounting was concerned were built to a common standard. All transformers that used schnabels for delivery were built to fit this one car design.

In the US, Westinghouse and General Electric were the initial users of Schnabel cars. Their mounting designs differed so initially only a Westinghouse transformer or Generator or Turbine could ship on a Westinghouse car and a General Electric equipment only on a GE Schnabel. McGraw Edison's designs were such that a depressed center car only could be used.

Brown Boveri a predecessor company to ABB placed its own Schnabel car in service in the USA in the early 1970's . It was used to carry Generators and Turbines from a manufacturing plant in Virginia.

Most of these cars from the 1960's etc are still in service on the US Railroads for these heavy shipments . Westinghouse car shipments originated at Muncie Indiana for large Power Transformers and East Pittsburgh for Rotating machinery.

Does anyone know what year the first real one was put in service?

I have the Westinghouse one and the only thing I don't like about it is that due to it's size I'll never be able to actually run it on my layout but it is a cool looking car. I also have an Atlas Suburban propane car that will probably never actually be run for the same reasons but it looks great too.

Jerry

MIKATT!, Dave, probably mid late 1960's. Do know Westinghouse #WECH101 was built in 1967.

John, the Schnabels were owned by the companies to carry their own products. So RRs did not own them. But there was a company "Pennsylvania Engineering"that had a patent related to Schnabels in 1972 (long after the Pennsy died.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by MIKATT1:
Does anyone know what year the first real one was put in service?

One was built in Switzerland in 1957. See the link in my previous post. Not sure about U.S. service but I believe Ron is correct that it was in the 60's.

Hello When I worked in a hobby shop, the owner of a shipping and rigging company ordered one of these to show his customers. As he put it, "I can give every one of the engineers all the figures, measurements and specifications but the CEO and other management staff understand what I'm proposing by showing them the model." An interesting example of reverse modeling? Keep Smilin'

I ran a couple of them on my test track:

Now I have a third one..eventually I'll video all three of them in one move.

 

---PCJ

Did a quick search on MTH's web site and they catalogued quite a few schnabels:

 

20-98232 Westinghouse

20-98291 ABB

20-98870 Westinghouse

20-98871 PRR

20-98576 CSX

20-98577 Norfolk Southern

20-98494 General Electric

20-98495 U.S. Army

20-98492 Harley-Davidson

20-98493 Electro Motive Division

20-98420 NASA

20-98418 Siemens Westinghouse

20-98419 ABB

20-98376 Caterpillar

20-98377 John Deere

20-98325 Union Pacific

 

I ended up getting the PRR version, and it is an impressive car.  I have been petitioning MTH do do another Westinghouse version with markings for the Westinghouse Electric East Pittsburgh Plant for a number of years now, but with no luck yet (several generations of my family worked there, and they used schnabels on occasion, although they may not have had EP markings in real life).

 

Very cool cars.

 

Andy

The Westinghouse Schnabel car has been on my want list for a while now. Even though it probably will not run on my layout. If MTH would bring out a East Pittsburgh version that would move it to the top. Since Westinghouse was a prominent part of Pittsburgh industry, a few more cars with the circle W on the side would be great!! 

I have a question. Why do they call it a Schnabel car? Did MR. Schnabel invent it? Don

These are on E-bay now: 

MTH 20-98871 PENNSYLVANIA PRR SCHNABEL FLATCAR TRAIN CAR O SCALE WESTINGHOUSE

Rare MTH Premier 20-98495 U.S. Army Schnabel Flatcar MINT!

According to Wikipedia:

 

"Schnabel is from German Tragschnabelwagen, meaning 'carrying-beak-wagon', because of the usually tapered shape of the lifting arms, resembling a bird's beak."

Thanks John, why didn't I look it up? Don

 

Yeah, I'd also like a Westinghouse caboose and boxcars with East Pittsburgh markings, as well.  They could also do some Wilmerding Airbrake cars, too.  You would think that these would be a natural for them, considering all of the Pittsburgh regional stuff they have done already.

 

Andy

WECX 101 and 102 were 20 and 22 axle cars and used for handling rotating machinery . They would have been assigned to East Pittsburg. WECX 201,202 203 and 204 were used for the Large Power transformer division. WECX 202 is a 20 axle car and is the largest of the group. The other 3 are 12 and 14 axle cars and are smaller capacity. I recall these cars handling transformers from the Muncie Indiana Transformer plant.

Andy,

I agree with you about MTH making cars and engines for other industries. It would make it possible for Pittsburgh themed layouts to be built. I certainly would consider changing my layout to resemble the area in which I grew up. 

I painted this a few years ago and it is on display at the Westinghouse Castle Train Club in Wilmerding Pa. We run trains and work on the layout on Saterdays 11am to 3 pm.

 

I have done several Items in Westinghouse and WABCO that I run on the layout.

I started my Westinghouse career in East Pittsburgh but was never involved in the shipping of generators.  I would also certainly like to have one lettered for East Pittsburgh as we did own and use Schnabel cars for shipping turbo-generators out of East Pittsburgh.  But all of the Schnabel cars made by MTH so far are 14-axle cars and carry a TRANSFORMER load.  We may have made transformers in East Pittsburgh back in the early days but that would have been long before Schnabel cars were developed.

 

As LIRR said, WECX cars #101 and 102 (20 and 22 axles, respectively), would have been used for carrying generators out of East Pittsburgh.  WECX #203 was a 14-axle car and the prototype for the first MTH Schnabel car, (20-98232).  It is lettered for the former Large Power Transformer Division in Muncie, Indiana and has the correct 203 road number.  I see that the new (W) Schnabel car recently released also carries a transformer and is numbered 212.  Does anyone know which plant it is lettered for?

 

MTH did make at least one flat car carrying a Westinghouse generator (MTH 20-98355).  As a test I removed that transformer and attached it to my (W) Schnabel car and it fits but it looks very small.  If MTH or someone else would make a larger generator it would be the correct load for a (W) Schnabel car lettered for East Pittsburgh.  But it would probably be too long for O72 curves.   

 

Bill

Doc,

Next time I'm back home, in the Pittsburgh area, I would like to stop in and see the layout at the Westinghouse Castle train club. In the meantime do you have a web site I can visit?

There is a very large Schnabel car based in Duluth, MN, at the port.  Heavy lift ships come in there with huge reactor vessels that are then shipped to the tar sands projects in Canada.  There are some Youtube videos showing these being moved.

 

John

I have a customer who used to work at a Westinghouse Generator plant. He had me design and build a Westinghouse factory with a craneway that 'load' generators onto a Schnabel car. A few photos are shown below.

 

 

 

 

 

Awesome. Well done.

The list above shows cars CATALOGUED.  Can anyone verify that all these cars have, IN FACT, been produced???  Ron B.

Joe: Very nice building and crane. 

 

As I posted above, too bad we can’t get MTH to make a Generator to fit on thier Schnabel cars instead of that transformer.  Could you make one?

 

Bill

I finally found a photo of a Westinghouse Schnabel car carrying a generator at East Pittsburgh and it was on that Schnabel website I referenced in an earlier post.  Here’s a link to a photo of the 22-axle WECX Schnabel car #102 at East Pittsburgh loaded with a generator ready to be transported to a customer's power plant site:

http://southern.railfan.net/sc.../westinghousegen.jpg

 

Note the completely different shape of the Generator on that car than the transformer on the MTH Schnabel car.  Perhaps it doesn’t make any difference to those of you with no connection to the East Pittsburgh plant, but there’s a big difference between a generator and a transformer! 

 

I’m sure that MTH will not make a 22-axle Schnabel car but I would settle for one of their 14-axle Schnabel cars with a GENERATOR load lettered for East Pittsburgh. 

 

HTH,

 

Bill

 

That would be the ideal situation, given the limitations of O gauge.  And since the generator would have to be designed to work with their existing schnabel cars, they could also sell the generators separately to people who already have a previous release to give them an alternate load to run, and I'm sure that some enterprising modellers might be able to incorporate them into other industrial scenes, as well.  So there is potential life beyond just one load for one or two cars.

 

Andy

Don - thank you

 

WTF - Think I should have said transformer plant not generator plant.........Mark follows the forum so will probably scold me for that one. Anyhow I don't believe I can make the generator with the detail required. Hopefully MTH or some other manufacturer will come through.

Joe

 

Thanks Joe for your honest response. 

 

For Andy and others on this Forum who have expressed interest in a Westinghouse East Pittsburgh-based Schnabel car with a generator load, I had posted earlier that years ago I had test mounted a Westinghouse generator load onto my MTH Schnabel car in place of the transformer to see what it looked like.  I couldn’t find the photos so I have done it again and taken new photos which are attached.

 

The first photo shows the flat car with the generator load in front of the Schnabel with the transformer load.  The flat car is MTH catalog #20-98355.  The generator is held onto the flat car by 4 Philips head screws mounted from the bottom and can be easily removed (the chains are cosmetic only).

     

The second photo shows the transformer after being removed from the Schnabel car.  Note that it is a 2-piece unit held together by 4 Phillips screws accessible from the bottom.  I removed the screws and will use the base of it only which has the mounting lugs.

 

The third photo shows the generator placed on the base that had been removed from the transformer.  The generator does not fit securely because it is narrower than the base nor can it be centered across the car because the channels for the screws interfere with the channels in the transformer base.  A photo of the other side (not taken) would show about a 1/8” gap between the generator frame and the base. 

 

The fourth photo shows the generator and base mounted on the Schnabel car.  Even if it did fit securely, I think most of us would agree that it’s definitely too small for that car. For reference, here’s another link to that photo I posted earlier from that Schnabel website of WECX 102 carrying a generator at East Pittsburgh: http://southern.railfan.net/sc.../westinghousegen.jpg

 

It would be great for us (W) East Pittsburgh fans if MTH or someone else would make a larger generator.  IMO it would need to be at least 10% larger in all dimensions to look appropriate for that car.  That would add about 5/8” to the length, ½” to the width and ¼” to the height.  Small as they sound, those extra fractional inches may make it too large to be used on mostly anyone’s layout.  Any other ideas from anyone?

 

Bill

 

 

 

I worked at Westinghouse's Advanced Systems division which was located in East Pittsburgh for one to two years, overlapping the late 70s and early 80s - it then moved to Penn Center.  I remember how interesting and impressive it was to walk over and visit the generator assembly buildings.  I watched a couple of the really big units being hauled away and it was quite impressive how they were loaded and transported.

 

I would love to have an East Pittsburgh Schnabel car with a big generator load.  

 

Has anyone tried to run the Schnabel car with a longer load?  I'm wondering if the trucks will turn enough that, with perhaps a one-foot long load instead of the six inch transformer provided, it would still track around curves?  I may have to try this with mine.  Trouble is its in a display case at work and hasn't run in years.  

That is very cool, thanks for showing it. I have two of the schnabel cars and had never noticed that the base was separate from the actual load. That opens the doors to all kinds of alternative loads. That generator is not intricate; it would be a lot of work to scratchbuild a bigger one, but it doesn't look like it would be very difficult. Somebody could also build some kind of nuclear reactor vessel; in real life those are bigger, and hauled on bigger schnabel cars, but maybe it could be for one of the new generation of Westinghouse mini-reactors that are in the NRC certification process. 

I wonder how long of a custom load the MTH schnabel could handle and still be able to run on O72?

 

Andy