Screwing the Layout to the Walls - Good or Bad

90% of my layout has no legs and is built into the wall

As stated before in this thread, a lot depends on the layout of your basement, how much room you need for the trains to run, and whether or not you really need to go into the walls. For me, I decided when I built the layout in December, 2011, that screwing the layout to the walls would probably be bad.

So, I decided on a free-standing 88 sq. ft. design which consists of 2 4 x 8 tables and 1 4 x 6 arranged in a backward "J." I'd considered running the trains the full length of the rec room all along the wall. But that would have interfered with the pool playing, since the billiards table is right there. And, since we have a completely finished basement I didn't want to make holes in the walls and decided against track lighting from the ceiling (more holes). This will also make it easier when we downsize to a smaller home, I won't have to go along the walls, take out the supports, and fill in and paint over where the holes were.

For me, this free-standing, smaller layout has worked well over the past 10 years and is still going strong. It will also be fairly easy to disassemble when the time comes.

"I've seen different opinions about this. Where the layout butts up to a sheetrock/wood stud wall, is it better to leave a gap between the layout or wall screw the layout to the wall?"

If there's a choice, do NOT butt the layout up to a wood stud wall / sheetrock wall.  My layout, from the very early '90s that lasted ten years, was constructed that way.  The table top and the room (12'x11') ended up giving a guitar acoustic which was annoying and LOUD - especially at the time as I was running many PostWar pieces on tubular track.

The next layout (15 years) was free-standing.  Noise was very much attenuated.  The current layout (now 4 years) is also free-standing on MIANNE benchwork (in my mind, the perfect solution) with Atlas track and is as quiet as I figure three-rail can be.

Some of you guys do some crazy things.  Why would you use metal L brackets.  Screw a level 2x2 ledger into the wall, lay your bench work framing on that, screw that in too, level off out from there and you are good to go.  It’s not going to increase the sound level, prob lessen it by making it more stable.  I did build a layout for a guy that I had to hold away from the wall for access, but if that isn’t an issue I say use the ledger and eliminate the extra legs.   Of course, just my opinion!

William 1:  An example...

1" X 3" ledger board around the room.

@Tom Tee posted:

William 1:  An example...

1" X 3" ledger board around the room.

Wonderful benchwork.  Where do you get the hardware for the bottom of the legs (levelling part)?

Chills,

They are Monoco swivel adjustable levelers available at Valley hardware in CA and Outwater Plastics in North Jersey.  They have a vinyl/plastic face to protect finished smooth surface floor covering.

I make 3 1/2" plywood disks then hit them with a 1 1/2" Forstner bit to provide a recess pocket then face the bottom with a thick disk of nippled office chair carpet protector for a sure grip.   The peninsula simply can not move at all.  I used the same set up for many of Gun Runner John's legs.

I use the finned  "T" nuts usually then urathane adhesive seal them in place.  The side brackets are for existing layouts.

Outwater Plastics also offers side mounted adjustable brackets for existing layouts.

@Tom Tee posted:

I used the same set up for many of Gun Runner John's legs.

And those suckers aren't moving at all!

Why would a layout fastened to the wall make the layout louder?

@rthomps posted:

"I've seen different opinions about this. Where the layout butts up to a sheetrock/wood stud wall, is it better to leave a gap between the layout or wall screw the layout to the wall?"

If there's a choice, do NOT butt the layout up to a wood stud wall / sheetrock wall.  My layout, from the very early '90s that lasted ten years, was constructed that way.  The table top and the room (12'x11') ended up giving a guitar acoustic which was annoying and LOUD - especially at the time as I was running many PostWar pieces on tubular track.

The next layout (15 years) was free-standing.  Noise was very much attenuated.  The current layout (now 4 years) is also free-standing on MIANNE benchwork (in my mind, the perfect solution) with Atlas track and is as quiet as I figure three-rail can be.

Sound is a product of movement and vibration.  If wall attachment increases the sound level,  it would seem to me that  something is moving/vibrating.

Not all rock hangers glue their drywall.  Many framers use warped studs and leave the sheet rock off the studs in the area of concave surfaces.

In most cases every aspect of your home is built by the lowest bidder.

@Tom Tee posted:

Sound is a product of movement and vibration.  If wall attachment increases the sound level,  it would seem to me that  something is moving/vibrating.

Not all rock hangers glue their drywall.  Many framers use warped studs and leave the sheet rock off the studs in the area of concave surfaces.

In most cases every aspect of your home is built by the lowest bidder.

Thanks for the response.  Of course, you're right.  Sound comes from the vibration of the trains on the train board that is transmitted to the walls via attachment points.

I'm pretty sure that that's exactly what happened with the layout I had that was attached to wall studs. 

As an aside, I don't know of any installers that glue the drywall to the studs in addition to the drywall screws.  In fact, I've never heard of that being done.  Different contractors use different techniques, I guess.

@rthomps posted:

Thanks for the response.  Of course, you're right.  Sound comes from the vibration of the trains on the train board that is transmitted to the walls via attachment points.

Right. I had meant to mention this in my previous post above. Not only are free-standing layouts quieter, but you don’t bugger up your walls, then have to repair them when the layout is taken down.

I have open grid, not a plywood table so then I don't think it makes any difference.

Ultimately I decided not to attach the layout to the wall. Once the benchwork was fully assembled it did not slide on the carpet, so it's good.

Running O gauge trains are loud. Period!

@Steve Harris posted:

Running O gauge trains are loud. Period!

Suggested correction:  Running three rail o gauge trains can be loud.  Period.

However..running two rail 0 scale trains produces a very subdued sound level.  Actually almost dead quiet at times.

I run both two and three rail trains on the same benchwork.  Both of my RR's have unballasted flex track over cork roadbed over 1/2" Homasote over 1/2" & 3/4" open grid plywood over risers.   The three rail trains are flat out loud little buggers.  I run the three rail slower so as to tame the noise level somewhat.  I like them both equally for what they are.  Welcome mat is out for three rail visitors to hear the difference.

@rthomps posted:

As an aside, I don't know of any installers that glue the drywall to the studs in addition to the drywall screws.  In fact, I've never heard of that being done.  Different contractors use different techniques, I guess.

Adhering panels has been a standard around these parts for many years.  We have townships that will spot check new construction to assure that both the decking and the drywall panels are fully adhered.  Decking adhesives are available that can be used in cold and or moist environments.  Better adhesives are rated to perform well in concave voids up to 3/8".

I ran sound checks on my layout to see where noise was being generated using Ross 3R track.

From my measurements, the quietest section was track screwed directly to 1x4 pine being used as a bridge. Next up was track laid directly on 1/2 nominal ply no more than 5 inches wide supported every 24 inches by 2x4s.  Worst was anything mounted directly on top of 1/2 plywood screwed to the benchwork. Did not matter foam roadbed, homosote on the ply. The plywood created a drum head and magnified the sound.  I imagine the sheetrock walls would tend to so the same thing.

There are free dB meter apps for your smart phone. Easy to check out where problem areas may exist. While they may not be super accurate, they will indicate relative louder and quieter areas.

A couple of years ago a forum member posted his results using different configurations using a dB meter.  Lots of differing opinions out there, not trying to advocate for any particular approach.

Whether true or not, I have read the center rail pick ups contribute more noise. Easy enough to check using passenger cars and freights. I'll have to try that someday.

@Tom Tee posted:

Adhering panels has been a standard around these parts for many years.  We have townships that will spot check new construction to assure that both the decking and the drywall panels are fully adhered.  Decking adhesives are available that can be used in cold and or moist environments.  Better adhesives are rated to perform well in concave voids up to 3/8".

Must be weather-related.  I don't know of any codes requiring gluing drywall to the wood studs in my area .... or anywhere in CA for that matter.

Thanks.  Good to learn something new.

I only have an 11 X 14 space that was my kids playroom 25 years ago.  The only option I had since I wanted parallel track with 72 inch curves (hoped to buy a version of a Big Boy one day)  was to put up a shelf around the room.  It has one lift out section to get into the attic and a storage space behind the walls, and a double track bridge in front of the one window on the end.  The room has a peaked roof that is 6'4" in the middle, the only place I can stand without stooping over,  65 inches high on one  long  side and 54 inches high on the other long side, so that dictated the overall rail height from the floor, and totally eliminated an island layout unless I scooted around the perimeter on a wheeled stool and never stood up to do anything.    I used a 1/2 inch foam insulation board that was not hard but had sponginess to it, under MTH track.  In the middle of each long side is a cross over.  I always thought I wanted a big basement railroad empire, but I have heard a couple stories of those empires being drowned in heavy rain or floods, so being 12 feet up might be a plus.  If you really want to play with O gauge, there is always a way to do it, might not look like a John Allen version of a railroad empire, but to paraphrase Lord Tennyson's "Better to have loved and lost...", better to get something up and running than just dreaming about it on the sofa.  The idea is to have fun.

@CALNNC posted:

I only have an 11 X 14 space that was my kids playroom 25 years ago.  The only option I had since I wanted parallel track with 72 inch curves (hoped to buy a version of a Big Boy one day)  was to put up a shelf around the room.  It has one lift out section to get into the attic and a storage space behind the walls, and a double track bridge in front of the one window on the end.  The room has a peaked roof that is 6'4" in the middle, the only place I can stand without stooping over,  65 inches high on one  long  side and 54 inches high on the other long side, so that dictated the overall rail height from the floor, and totally eliminated an island layout unless I scooted around the perimeter on a wheeled stool and never stood up to do anything.    I used a 1/2 inch foam insulation board that was not hard but had sponginess to it, under MTH track.  In the middle of each long side is a cross over.  I always thought I wanted a big basement railroad empire, but I have heard a couple stories of those empires being drowned in heavy rain or floods, so being 12 feet up might be a plus.  If you really want to play with O gauge, there is always a way to do it, might not look like a John Allen version of a railroad empire, but to paraphrase Lord Tennyson's "Better to have loved and lost...", better to get something up and running than just dreaming about it on the sofa.  The idea is to have fun.

Thank you!  I agree, whatever you can fit, whatever you can afford and whatever you can find the time for is a train empire in my book.  Whether it is a shelf layout or a whole dang floor is immaterial.  I’m just happy that people are still involved with the Hobby.  

@Tom Tee posted:

Suggested correction:  Running three rail o gauge trains can be loud.  Period.

However..running two rail 0 scale trains produces a very subdued sound level.  Actually almost dead quiet at times.

I run both two and three rail trains on the same benchwork.  Both of my RR's have unballasted flex track over cork roadbed over 1/2" Homasote over 1/2" & 3/4" open grid plywood over risers.   The three rail trains are flat out loud little buggers.  I run the three rail slower so as to tame the noise level somewhat.  I like them both equally for what they are.  Welcome mat is out for three rail visitors to hear the difference.

Interesting note Tom.  Any hypothesis as to why the difference.  Noting my complete ignorance as to 2 rail… I’ve never even seen a train so?  Different engine power, different wheels, etc.  any thoughts?  Thanks

If you want hypothesis you sure have come to the right place.  Boy do we have hypotheses here abouts!

Not an expert, I just play one on the forum.