Semi-Scale modifications

Well...some people in the tinplate world may shun them and let them rot but there are others (such as apparently yourself) who find some of these efforts very interesting. 

   We had a short discussion about these trains on a thread awhile back.  My take on them is they aren't something I spend time hunting but if I find something I think is very interesting I'll consider adding it to the collection. So far, there have been two instances where I thought the modification effort was well done and they are now part of the collection

AF NYC Reefer repainted to represent Freeport Milk

Ives Boxcar repainted to represent Dairymen's League Milk reefer

Question:  What's the story behind your finding the two engines in your post?

I would also like to know more!

anyone have stuff like that rotting away in the basement send it my way.

Hello all  thank you for your kind words and posting of interesting pieces .  

Delbert J Henninger was the dean of conversions ....and heavily featured in Hertz's book  "Model Railroad Conversion Manual" ......for a lot more info about Henninger and conversion please see link to Tin Plate Times 

https://www.facebook.com/TinplateTimes/

Here are photos of two Henninger made or inspired engines ..( big and heavy ones) ..parts from 260's & 763's  as donors ...set up for outside 3rd rail 

Cheers Carey 

Carey,  You find the neatest things.  I've got the conversion manual and would really like to make one of the locos in it.

So, it looks like you were able to obtain at least three of those locos from the same source?  I say that since they are all West Central Lines.  Would be interesting to see if that layout was ever featured in MR, or MB... Homework assignment!

Fascinating - first time I heard about that Louis Hertz book! In my youth, I once met Mr.Hertz at Polk''s on 5th Ave. I have a much-loved copy of his Collecting Model Trains in my personal library.

Hello all ....

yes 3 of the engines came together .... but not from an original owner ...one removed ...they would have had Seneca Union  Railway  on the tender .... Delbert Henninger passed away in 1958 ...  unknown when his estate / layout was broken up ...if you follow the link above there is a page showing his layout ...all the pages are from 1940 + - ......  unknown if Henninger has any  magazine coverage in the post war era ..

Hertz's ..conversion book ...is a bit skinny ..paper back ...and is probably the most expensive ( hard to find)  of his books ....

Here you have two more engines pictured in the book from the CV    Centinella Valley Railway ... out in LA area in the late 30's ... own by Lee P Ridgman ..who was also big into "modifications " 

also ad from MC    1936...promoting Lionel 260's and 257 at bargain prices to be used as donor engines for that semi scale conversion you had planned .........considering Scalecraft kits  were about 60 , a Mi-Loco was 70 ....you can see for those in the masses during the depression ....Lionel conversions  were the way to go for many ....

Over the  last 60 + years many of these "modified" pieces were no doubt  bought as parts engines and stripped of the  modifications  .... valuing only the "true" Lionel  bits which had resale value 

Cheers Carey 

Yes, I remember seeing a few picture groups from the Centenlla (sp) Lines in Model Builder. If I remember right one picture shows an American Flyer 429 0-6-0 switcher modified to be a 4-6-0. I'll try to find those issues. Also, most of the conversion articles made it into eirher MR or Model Builder or both. The 0-6-0 and one of the 4-4-0's were in the 1945 issues of Model Builder.

Both Delbert Henninger and Lee Ridgman did get some coverage in Model Railroader. One of Henninger's engines was featured in Trackside Photos in the September 1937 issue and Ridgman's railroad (with the 2-8-2 pulling a freight consist) made the cover of the June 1936 Model Railroader.

Henninger 

Ridgman - MR cover details

I have the above-referenced book by Louis Hertz.  In it, he describes how to achieve a 14.2-to-1 gear ratio using double-reduction spur gears.

Apparently there's a 12-tooth pinion on the motor shaft, which engages the 44-tooth "outside" of a compound gear.  That same compound gear has a 16-tooth inner gear, which engages a 62(!) tooth gear, I assume on the wheel or driving axle.  So the two stages are (44/12) * (62/16) = 14.2-to-1, which is a lot slower than the 8.5-to-1 that was standard on the Lionel 263E, etc. 

Without seeing one of these conversions in person, I don't understand how he was able to achieve the additional speed reduction with what seems like factory parts.  I mean, why didn't Lionel do it this way in the first place?  If the gears he used were larger / more teeth, how did the motor still fit inside the boiler shell?  Did all 1930s Lionel Standard Gauge locos have 62 teeth on their geared wheels?  And do these wheels operate smoothly over postwar O22 switches?

This subject fascinates me, almost enough to attempt it myself (although I have no machine skills or experience )  If anyone that has one of these locos is up for it,  I would love to see some detailed photos of the gear train, and how it compares to a factory motor.  Thanks in advance!!

Carey Williams posted:

Hello Tinplate World, the toy train world was transitional in the 1930's . The original generation that had electric trains as a child was looking for something a bit closer to a prototypical train in appearance as an adult ...or for their offspring. Model Railroad clubs born in the late 20's expanded exponentially in the 30's . With large open houses and worlds fairs supporting huge public layouts ... the humble Lionel , Ives or Flyer brightly colored tin can racing around a tight circle dragging a few cars no longer cut it . Those with deep pockets tossed the tinplate and went scale ..considering this period was in the heart of the depression many more looked to "modify" their tinplate empire into a more "semi-scale" type look....
Louis Hertz's first book was all about how to cut and chop your tinplate in hopes to obtain a more realistic steel steed . Here we have a June 1935 article from Model Craftsman ..... showing the way to salvage your tinplate trains into something a bit more acceptable to the eye. Of course today these type of owner "improvements" throws the piece into a pariah status ..... shunned by the tinplate world ..shunned by the scale world ...left to rot in toy train purgatory...oh the humanity
Cheers Carey .
Here we have an alternate reality for a 257 and 262

Carey,

  This is very interesting stuff. Can you explain who actually wrote June 1935 Model Craftsman article, is it indeed Louis Hertz? 

  Tom 

Hey Carey, I found your loco's and the builder in Model Builder!

Thank you very much Dennis for pointing out my engines in print !!!!   I appreciate you help .

Cheers Carey  

   These remind me of visiting some real old timers with the nicer outside 3rd rail and T-Rail builds. I'd go to see them sometimes with my Gramps in the 60s. I listened.

  Most regearing requires exacting drilling for posts and a press, but I think it is right that there was one more or less a direct swap in of Lionel gears to get a reduction, but I couldn't so much as say what gauge either.

I'm not sure we ever really got a full reply from the few post from folks that had done regearing. I honestly think it would be easier to do it from scratch today as common gear size trends have changed.

Does anyone know what happened to Lee Ridgeman's Centinella Valley engines?  In a letter published in TTOS's magazine years ago, it was noted that someone in (I believe) Oregon had purchased his engines when the Centinella Valley layout was broken up. If my recollection is correct he planned to recreate as much of the CV as possible...but after that, silence.  Anyone know where they are now?

                                                                                                                                                   Logan

Very cool thread. These pioneers were real craftsmen. 

I saw a couple of 2025 engines and the like at Allentown that were very nicely modified with square cabs and additional details to better represent PRR prototypes. Offered at about $160 each, should have picked them up 

Jim