Should there be a new Run of PRR BP20’s???

@20centuryhudson posted:

If the B unit were not powered an AB set I would think might be in the range of 1200 I would think

Unfortunately, Scott Mann will not do non powered units anymore. He claims he learned his lesson from the FL9 project. From then on only powered units for 3rd Rail diesel models are being produced.

And no, mfgs and importers dont save much when elliminating the electronics and motors to change a powered unit to a non powered unit. Customers still want lights and sound in those non powered units. Just look at the price of Lionel Superbase non powered units. There's Not much savings between a superbase and a powered unit.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Unfortunately, Scott Mann will not do non powered units anymore. He claims he learned his lesson from the FL9 project. From then on only powered units for 3rd Rail diesel models are being produced.

And no, mfgs and importers dont save much when elliminating the electronics and motors to change a powered unit to a non powered unit. Customers still want lights and sound in those non powered units. Just look at the price of Lionel Superbase non powered units. There's Not much savings between a superbase and a powered unit.

Unpowered units never made sense to me. Using them adds drag to the train when it could be helping to pull more cars. The only unpowered units I have are typically B units in an ABA. Even at that, I've been slowly working on buying parts to power them where possible.

@rplst8 posted:

Unpowered units never made sense to me. Using them adds drag to the train when it could be helping to pull more cars. The only unpowered units I have are typically B units in an ABA. Even at that, I've been slowly working on buying parts to power them where possible.

Not everyone has a large layout. I’ve only a modest 8X12 as I’ve no basement but lucky to have an extra bedroom for my trains. One engine works fine as I can get to a monster sized consist (for me 10-14ish cars) without having the engine start to chase the tail (Much fewer passenger cars). I’ll do 2 power units when required but I like to go powered and unpowered where possible. I’ve even done a Frisco F3 ABBA with a dozen rolling stock and 1 power unit. Looks great, runs great. Keep Lubed and OIL ALL Axels to minimize resistance - including rolling stock. It makes a difference.
I even add dummies on the tail end as a “pusher”.  Looks cool and I’ve no worries about syncing with lead power unit !!!

Scott offers only powered units.  I live with that just fine too !!!  
Email Scott !!!! Let’s get this offered - in the Q !!!! 😜

Based on the number of units a locomotive like this would likely sell, anticipate pricing in the range of the Krauss Maffei adjusted for inflation.  This is simply the reality of a locomotive that only ran on a single road.  I would guess no more than 150 units would sell.

If it were to happen and that is a big if, I'd still be interested in one or two. 

If it happens I would want to reserve a DGLE 5 stripe AA or AB if B units are produced. Plus a Tuscan single stripe A unit to pull my brass P70’s on a NY & Long branch commuter train. I’m thinking if these were announced “tomorrow” we would have about 18 months to prepare for the invoice; which would be hefty in today’s market.

I will certainly reserve one, possibly two if multiple liveries are offered.

@HiramO posted:

I will certainly reserve one, possibly two if multiple liveries are offered.

Excellent!

So, the prototypes consisted of 18 A units and 9 B units totaling 9 ABA sets.  For a limited run model, I can't imagine a commercially viable scenario where B units are sold separately, so are AB sets sold with an option to purchase an extra A, or just sold as ABA sets?  The set would be a monster, but I'm guessing a lot of the folks running these already have a bunch of scale length matching cars anyway.

@BlueFeather posted:

So, the prototypes consisted of 18 A units and 9 B units totaling 9 ABA sets.  For a limited run model, I can't imagine a commercially viable scenario where B units are sold separately, so are AB sets sold with an option to purchase an extra A, or just sold as ABA sets?  The set would be a monster, but I'm guessing a lot of the folks running these already have a bunch of scale length matching cars anyway.

Lets not forget about that those folks that desire to model the PRR New York & Long Branch passenger/commuter operation. Only the A Units were used there.

@Hot Water posted:

Lets not forget about that those folks that desire to model the PRR New York & Long Branch passenger/commuter operation. Only the A Units were used there.

Maybe I'm wrong, but with only a couple road names I don't see a way to recoup the cost of the tooling for the B unit without selling the PRR units as part of an AB set.  PRR NY & LB -- sure, A units only, but my guess is the PRR AB sets need to achieve close to 100-150 units for anything to happen.

So here’s my thoughts considering Hot Waters observation that only A units were used on the NY & Long branch. Offer the following

DGLE 5-stripe A&B set

Tuscan 5-stripe A&B set

DGLE freight single stripe A&B set

Tuscan single stripe A unit only.

very few ppl would be able to fit an ABA set so why bother......

single B units don’t sell well so just offer powered B units with sound & smoke, with the A unit... except for the NY & Long branch single stripe A’s. Make those the only variation available as a single A unit.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Based on the number of units a locomotive like this would likely sell, anticipate pricing in the range of the Krauss Maffei adjusted for inflation.  This is simply the reality of a locomotive that only ran on a single road.  I would guess no more than 150 units would sell.

If it were to happen and that is a big if, I'd still be interested in one or two.

Krauss Maffei pricing… x2 for an AB set. Ouch.

Maybe in a couple of years.

These probably wouldn’t be offered in sets but rather as single units, A or B, to build your consist as you see fit.  I would guess that A and B units would be priced the same.

I think flooding Scott with requests would be the first order of business.

-Brian

Not trying to douse your BP20 fire here, but thought I'd comment on the mix of A and B units, having the ability to purchase individual units to make up whatever combination the customer wants...

I had this sort of discussion with Scott as plans were being formulated for the recent EA/E1 B&O/ATSF production.  B&O's EA's were ordered as AB pairs from EMC.  But Santa Fe's order was not so.  Of the 8 numbered units of the 2 Class of E1's, only numbers 2-4 were ordered as AB sets.  Engines 5-9 were ordered/received as A units, only.  Single units were deemed sufficient for the early Warbonnet streamliners that originated as 5-9 car consists, and plied a relatively flat route.  The LA to San Diego San Diegan was one such consist.  A single A unit bearing Leland Knickerbocker's iconic paint scheme was sufficient.  And I  would have dearly loved having a singleton A unit, only, to replicate this train in addition to the AB set I had already ordered.  Actually, availability of a singleton A unit...IMHO...would have been of interest to other buyers, especially those having less interest in the Santa Fe flag, but appreciating the style and paint scheme for its historical mark...but not wanting to pay the price for the B unit.  I have no idea how many other Warbonnet nerds like myself might have made the same appeal to Scott.  Heck, maybe I was the only PITA on that issue!!!

However, it would seem that the nature of this sort of contractual build dictated that all units, EA/E1, B&O/ATSF, would be as AB sets...ONLY.  Never had any explanation, and frankly I shouldn't have expected any.   It's Scott's business.  If it complicates having these engines built in limited quantities at an affordable price, let it be.

So, extrapolating to this BP20 discussion...mixes of paint, lettering, road names, A's, B's, AB's, ABA's, etc., etc....I'd say 'How badly do you want the BP20's?'  I'm thrilled to have my EA and E1 AB sets.  If I live long enough, maybe there'll be enough interest in a second run someday...and a contractual arrangement can provide ATSF A units, only.  (But I surely am not holding my breath!)

Just a thought...

KD

@BlueFeather posted:

Maybe I'm wrong, but with only a couple road names I don't see a way to recoup the cost of the tooling for the B unit without selling the PRR units as part of an AB set.  PRR NY & LB -- sure, A units only, but my guess is the PRR AB sets need to achieve close to 100-150 units for anything to happen.

Well you have essentially 2 types of locos and 4 paint schemes..

#5770 & #5771 had the headlight, mars light combo and

Dlge 5 stripe paint scheme, small number boards

Single headlight Dlge 5 stripe paint scheme, small number boards.

Tuscan red 5 stripe paint scheme large number boards.

DLGE Single stripe paint scheme.

Tuscan Red single stripe billboard lettering large number boards paint scheme.

Large models.  A unit 20+inches.  B unit slightly smaller, 19+ inches.   Three axle truck(s) had center axle blind/flange-less wheels. Most unique feature was a move-able front pilot that appears to be fixed. It may have been marketed as O72, with a lot of clanging, banging and shorting, through switches,  it has made it around my O54 layout.   Cab detail was decent, with window glass.  At the time it had TAS, (Train America Studio)'s,  Engineer on Board (EOB) TMCC speed control.  From a foggy head, that has forgotten more, than I remember. Mike CT.

I am in the camp that would only want a pair of A units.  No use for B units on my future NY&LB layout. 

@BlueFeather posted:

Maybe I'm wrong, but with only a couple road names I don't see a way to recoup the cost of the tooling for the B unit without selling the PRR units as part of an AB set.  PRR NY & LB -- sure, A units only, but my guess is the PRR AB sets need to achieve close to 100-150 units for anything to happen.

Didn't Sunset produce the Rock Island TA units a few years back? Wasn't that a one road name only item? If folks want to pay the price Scott comes up with that's great.

I had a 2 rail Weaver A unit, as I wanted to replicate a New York & Long Branch commuter train.  The unit was heavy enough to pull a 20 car brass and plastic mail train up a 2% grade, so a three car commuter train was no issue.  I retrofitted mine with PS2.  It ran very well, but even though I modified it for twelve wheel pickup, I still needed a trailing B60 baggage car to provide continuous electrical power.  The non fixed pilot that Mike CT refers to was unique..it was spring loaded to return to center, and was split at the obvious place (unlike Lionel's!).   On my layout with broad curves it never moved off center

I sold mine because a) i got a bit tired of it, and b) I wanted to get a slightly weary Kohs GG1 that I have since rehabilitated

The video below shows the size difference between the freight and passenger sharks

Keep in mind these are huge diesels.  I think their size limited the buyers for these.

Here is one in front of a freight shark.

@CAPPilot posted:

Keep in mind these are huge diesels.  I think their size limited the buyers for these.

"Huge" is a relative thing. They're just (or should be) 1/8" longer than a scale GG1. Of course, if you want to string an A-B-A set of them together...