If nothing else, put something on youtube or their website.  All it has to be is the prototype and the sound set they are using.  That is the biggest turn off to me in this hobby.  Buying sight unseen.  

Yep a simple video clip would work perfect.

That is exactly why I sent a E-Mail telling Lionel President they are shooting themselves in the foot. and there not the only one MTH does it also not sure about weaver or Atlas but I would think they are also. That is one of the main reason I will not think of buying a MTO engine and the cost also I also think they need to get creative in how to get there prices down some also be it ship direct to dealers and not have them have to go thru a middle man like the few big ones do so all are on same playing field as that is also a thing that hurt your mom & pop hobby shop they can't get the items as cheap as your big places as they have to buy from a middle man instead of directly from Lionel 

I'm happy as things are now.  I can't remember being seriously disappointed in anything except one three-car reefer set I bought, never really had a problem with any loco that seeing it first would have changed. 

Couldn't hurt. IMO, MTH engines of a class (proto2, for example) all operate pretty much the same. Lionel has varied significantly both in operation and in paint. Glossy (not so much anymore) or flat. Both engines and rolling stock. Tough to get a handle on it, and of course, there are alterations between the catalogs and final production.

 

Gerry

I think that MLAT is on to something. The makers show us prototypes, why not a sound byte?  If I order a bto automobile, I at least get to drive a similar version at the dealer. It could be good selling tool.

 

"So," the salesman said, 'what is it going to take to put you behind the throttle of one of these babies?" 

 

Earl    

I think you guys are forgetting one little bit of reality. When we see these items in the catalog and during the preorder/BTO window, there is no sample to show. They are still working on the tooling and may not even know what sound sets they are going to use.

 

Hard to show off something that doesn't exist

Can't say I have ever been disappointed in engine that was delivered By any manufacture.

 

i can say I have been surprised by some details or a better sound then I expected when it was delivered. Overall I have been very happy what has been delivered.

I think that when I purchase engines from the Lionel or Atlas catalog I know what to expect. I have never been disappointed by buying an engine from either Lionel or Atlas. For people who would rather see and hear what they are going to buy well even if you buy an engine second hand sometimes you still don't know what you have till you put it on the tracks and see and hear for yourself.

At least when you buy new, there is a so called warranties  with the engine. Most hobby shops will take it back if it was really misrepresented.

No need to see or hear before a pre-order. I generally know what to expect. 

 

The rare occasions I mail-order engines, I always ask for it to be tested and let me know if there is an issue so it can be corrected or the order canceled. Only once have I gotten a dud and that was from a forum sponsor. I asked for it to be tested and was told it was and worked fine. Once it arrived, it was clear from the box it was not opened. The "Factory Sealed" labels hadn't been broken. Go figure, the engine was a dud. The dealer was rather sneaky with the issue and didn't really want to address it. At the end of the day, they did finally refund my money. 

I know its hard to order something sight unseen, but, for the most part, 9 out of 10 times, the Product we receive is better than pictured in the catalog. I am referring to the ES44AC Diesels, and the VL Big Boys with the extra added features....Also the GP35's, the SD40-2"s.   Going back to the 2-10-4"s Pennsylvania Engines with Smoke down the Cylinders, and of course the Famous 261 Milwaukee Steamer, these are all good examples of great quality and workmanship. I have absolutely no problem with Pre-Order Merchandise. Good Question, but, in my opinion, Lionel is doing a great job making these nice, Legacy Locomotives....Toys, and these are Toys, will never be perfect, but They Try.  Happy Railroading

MLAT, I agree

"sample or test drive" an engine before a preorder"

is a good Idea, but I really doubt that it will ever be an option in this industry.  I would like the option of being able to get full, 100% refund, if the product that is delivered does not match the description in the catalog.  This would also require the manufacturer pay shipping and insurance on the returned item.

What Lee said!

 

Brad

Kiene!

fred

Nobody's forgetting anything.  Didn't they have a sample of the BigBoy????I would think they know what sound set they are using before it goes into production.  I think it's reasonable to see and hear a sample.   

You beat me to it, I was thinking the same thing. Both Lionel and MTH make videos of their products, but it's after they are made and in the possession of the warehouses here. By then they are either on the way or have been delivered to the purchasers.

I would settle for a digital photograph, but I know even that isn't realistic.

 

Gilly

The very first video sample had the soundset from another previously released legacy loco. The whistle tone was from an entirely different loco and incorrect.

The sounds were basically there to go along with the smoke effects demonstration.

 

Having said that, some who preordered the Erie and C&O berks may have reconsidered had they known those would have NKP whistles too. I know I would have.

 

 

That's why I think it would be nice to have something.  A short audio or video clip, a description of what it will have (eg glossy or dull finish) something to let us know what exactly we will be getting.  I would think they know all this info before it goes to production.

I always ask my LHS which I pre-ordered from to test the engine before I take delivery.   It's worked fine so far.

-Greg

I am certain the Train companies would love to show you their product asap so they can get you excited to buy. But as the same time they want to make sure they do not cause the buyer any misconceptions with the sound and looks of their product.

So they are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place!!!

 

If I remember correctly, Didn't Lionel show a VL BB way back then and one was still able to preorder? I can't recall but I think I preorderd mine after I saw a video of the VL BB. If I am wrong, don't worry about it, I am not

 

BTW, I am not crazy about preoreder. I like to wait and get better prices later in the used/new market, but I broke down and disobeyed my own orders and got a VL BB,,,so far so good, I hope I don't lose too much money later!!!

 

 

 

An online video catalog would be great but as some have noted many of the newer items might not be camera ready at the time. Anything would be better than some of the really badly photo-shopped or really badly computer generated pictures we see in some cases.

 

Jerry

What came first the chicken or the egg.  As it has been pointed out you CAN NOT show what has not actually been made.  Also as has been pointed out some of the marketing videos are not the actual product to be produced but taking an older existing engine with some of the newer features added for show and tell.

 

If these are to be BTO none will be built until enough are ordered such that the venture is a cost benefit.

 

And there is the catalog caveats as quoted here "Not all products depicted in this catalog are production models. In some cases, the items pictured may be models in HO scale, O scale, or another scale that havw been altered digitally.  Each item's graphic features and content are subject to change after publication.  All product feature may be verified on their retail packages."

 

So when we order BTO items, as I have, we are depending on the manufacturers passed performance and reputation.

I liked the new product videos of new engines Mike Reagan did on Lionel's website. But not sure if they still do them.  They usually came out shortly before the items hit the dealers, so you could see it and know what the final version looked and sounded like.  With BTO, they would be great so you'd be able to check it out and if you liked it you could then try to see if any extras were around at dealers to purchase.  I usually don't preorder, but give my dealer a list of items I think I want.  Then they tell me if they are going to order extras of those.  They call me as soon as they come in and I go right away to check them out in person.  99% of the time I buy it.  Timing is the key

There would only be one sample model available.

 

Somebody would have to take the Pre-Production model with them to train shows or special tours for viewing them at big Train Stores.

 

Andrew

So you want them to make the locomotive first so you can try it out and decide if you want to pre-order before they make the locomotive. HMMMMMM

I've never pre ordered a locomotive so I don't have a dog in this hunt.  The way I see it is that the manufactures have you guys by the short ones and doing their marketing for them to boot.  And if that's not bad enough you pay for the advertising by buying their catalogs.

If you think you should be able to sample it, you will need to take your chances and wait for the product to ship.  Even then you need to find a dealer who will run it for you.  Today, I think that will be harder.

 

If you are comfortable taking the risk with not liking the product (really?), you pre-order.

 

Personally, I would be fine with pre-order without seeing the product.  Lionel and MTH (my experience base with pre-order) both make good products.  The only issues I see are quality control related, and some of those issues might also fairly be termed shipping related, and in either event neither firm is going to screw the customer -- they will fix the product and make it right.  So the risk here, in my mind, is nill.  (Annoyance at warranty repairs is not risk.)

 

Now if someone wants to continue to wrap themselves up with whether it is fair, correct, good business practice, or anything similar, that's fine but just be aware that the major manufacturers are now doing it the same way with the higher end products.  That should tell you that it isn't a question of them trying to be difficult or trying to screw the customer, but rather a requirement necessitated by the current economics of the business.  I trust that MTH and Lionel know what they need to do better than I do.  I am happy that I have the choice of both firms and others that add a lot to the market.

 

Everything else is just endless talk, with all respect, by people who should go into  the train room and, as my three year old says, "just go run trains."  (Maybe that's the problem -- some folks don't have layouts?  Use the floor then . . . . )

 

Candidly, preorder from us. You get one with your name on it and if you decide the manufacturer hosed up, don't take it. We don't require a deposit and everything moves eventually.

 

Right now, we have an MTH Premier Texas Special F B Unit to prove it. It's the "wrong red." Lol. 

People actually buy catalogs?  Seems like most of the time they're given away by LHS's, clubs and companies.

 

Rusty

My most recent order, the Atlas-O F7'S is with Mr Muffin's.  I think it is safe to say most, if not all, of my future purchases will be through him.

 

1. No deposit.

2. His prices are excellent.

3. Shipping was FREE.

4. If I am not satisfied he will take it back.

5. He he easy to communicate with and responded to ALL of my emails.

 

Can anybody else TOP that?

It sounds like what people are debating is whether or not they are willing to be speculators.  

 

Absent the availability of the actual product you are pre-paying or buying on the perceived finished product.  The question seems to be whether or not the manufacturer describes the product vividly and accurately enough to satisfy the decision to purchase in advance of the actual product being built.

 

Speculation drives many buying decisions.  If the manufacturers can count on creating perceived value, the confidence of their buyer, and a large enough audience, then there will continue to be little more than the 'sample' to show before the item is produced.  And given the long lead times that many of these items have from concept to delivery (if they are produced), this topic will continue to be a source of informed and lively debate for a long time to come.

 

A topic I'm sure the manufacturers monitor closely as it answers this question for them.

 

"Buy on the rumor, sell on the news."  Happens everyday.

Not even close.  It could a description, audio clip or sound something very simple.  

Now wait a minute as your opening post 1st line read...

 

Would you like to actually see and hear an engine your thinking about pre-ordering instead of looking at a picture in a catalog?  

 

See & hear..now you're saying that hearing is good enough?

 

Well with MTH if you don't like what you hear then simply change the sound file