MTH and LIONEL please show me the actual product I'm ordering/buying. What I see very often is not what I get and at these prices I expect accuracy not disappointment.
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Off the top of my head, some of the more noticeable discepancies between the catalog'd illustrations vs. "as built" delivered products recently occurred with Lionel's separate-sale NYC ESE Hudsons. They were delivered with different driver arrangements -- in both style and color -- from what was actually catalog'd. For some folks like me, it was by no means a show-stopper. But it was nonetheless a surprise. For others it was disappointment.
A couple of years ago the first production run of Legacy Berkshires was produced without whistle-steam -- even though the feature was included in the catalog description of these locomotives.
As is typical, it all boils down to managing customer expectations. If an importer KNOWS the delivered product is gonna differ from the catalog illustration (or feature description), they should communicate those discrepancies to the consumer. We shouldn't need to wait for the product to hit dealer shelves before finding out features are different than catalog'd.
Of course... occasionally the delivered product results in pleasant surprises. I recently took delivery of two MTH Canadian National premier cabooses. The catalog image shows ONE side of the caboose with the graphics reading "Look, Listen, Live". As it turns out, the other side of the caboose has graphics reading, "REGARDEZ, ECOUTEZ, RESTEZ EN VIE", which I found is the Canadian French (literal) translation for "Look at Me, Listen, Stay Alive." Again, I thought this was cool, but the MTH product description made no reference to varying graphics on different sides of the caboose.
At the price-point of the caboose though, this is hardly an issue when compared to production discrepancies in much more expensive locomotives.
David
rattler21 posted:Paul, could you please cite specific products that were disappointments? John
Yes. I purchased an MTH NS C40-8 PS3, cab #8306. In the catalog the white sill stripe appeared to be the correct width, matching my C40-8W. However, when I received it the sill stripe is almost a scale foot too wide extending up to the walkway. Running both engines together looks terrible. For the money, should I have to repaint it or live with it in disappointment? I'll never sell it for what I paid...........
To state the obvious, when complex products are planned/announced/previewed/actually stocked and delivered, and there is a long lead time, such discrepancies are absolutely inevitable.
But, if they waited to show the item in the catalogue as a photograph of the actual model, ready for sale, the other half of our little 3-rail party would moan about not having any lead time to "save up for it". And round and round we go.
Also but: I do agree that Lionel - more than the others? (others? how many of those are left?) does seem a little more casual about some of these specs and representations. I don't keep up as I seldom buy new, or at least current production, any more.
The Pacific Ocean does not help. As there is no other choice - nor can there ever be - we must suck it up. It's just a stripe, after all...
Nirvana...particularly when it comes to catalog art vs. reality. And pilot samples...actual factory one-off examples...are no more reliable....especially when your factory is 12,500 miles away, rather then downstairs, across the yard, within the same gated facility.
But, it's a nice idea, though.
Lead times for catalogs and advance advertising seldom jive with today's manufacturing schedule(s), too. Artwork....and it's apologetic liberties...fill the bill. Sometimes a photo of the same engine in another scale (e.g., HO) is useful.
There continues to be that fine print paragraph of caveats at the end of every catalog....and not just for this hobby, either. 'It's all subject to change at the time of delivery', in effect...colors, features, price, stock numbers, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah. Saves lawyer-dough down the road, I'm told. Makes appropriate watchdog agencies happy.
But, we can wish for something better, for sure.
KD
Way back in the day, wasn't there some issue with artwork in catalogs ? Lionel and others were depicting their trains is stylized settings, leaving some un-informed or unsuspecting catalog browsers (the human type) believing that what they saw in the catalog, was what they were going to get when they made the purchase.
I'm talking early seventies, if I recall correctly.
So are manufacturers supposed to pay for design, tooling, samples, etc and have product done before it ever is in a catalog? So then when it's cataloged and two people buy one and the manufacturers are sitting on 998 more of them then what? Well then that's when a company turns into a charity and blows them out at a loss. I would much rather order off 2D catalog art and get a slightly fat white stripe (that I and most other MODEL railroaders could easily fix) so that MTH, Atlas, L, etc are still here 5 years from now. If these companies don't profit they don't make trains. And we all lose in that scenario.
PAUL ROMANO posted:rattler21 posted:Paul, could you please cite specific products that were disappointments? John
Yes. I purchased an MTH NS C40-8 PS3, cab #8306. In the catalog the white sill stripe appeared to be the correct width, matching my C40-8W. However, when I received it the sill stripe is almost a scale foot too wide extending up to the walkway. Running both engines together looks terrible. For the money, should I have to repaint it or live with it in disappointment? I'll never sell it for what I paid...........
And the opposite occurred with the $400+ MTH Premier Savannah & Atlanta SD70Ace Heritage where the stripe was clearly too narrow and did not match the prototype. The lettering also used a dull gold instead of the brighter Dulux Gold. To add to the frustration, the MTH HO version was correct. Arrrghhhh....
https://ogrforum.com/t...95#27897396906496895
<Breath in, let it go, breath in, relax...> 
Bryan
It's tough to with BTO as well. The consumer has to shoulder the risk.
I usually wait until the product arrives, then will pick it up if I determine it's a hit or miss.
Appearance is one thing, but missing features, e.g. whistle steam is not acceptable. It says BTO now. It comes in and is not what you ordered, I want compensation. It's like buying a car on a small scale, of course. It's much easier buying off the shelf. Lionel wants us to pay for their inability to manage an overseas supplier. I worked with Printed Circuit Board suppliers in Taiwan & Korea. It's not easy but it can be done with your own QA/QE employees on site. Then communicate the discrepancies to your customers.
MTH may have trumpeted a little more on their catalogue photos compared to Lionel. But for the most part I have found if I like the Lionel photo, the actual items in person are usually much much better. For the most part.
This is not said to start a war here, it is JUST MY OPINION!
As to the BTO items, at York, I saw the ONE Lionel pre-production GG1 up close, so I took the risk that the other ones, that I ordered, would come out equally as nice.
Of course others may want to take the risk of not ordering in advance and wait until the real product comes out. I think taking the risk that way works out about 50/50 that you can acquire a BTO item after it comes out down the road a year or so later.
decoynh posted:Appearance is one thing, but missing features, e.g. whistle steam is not acceptable. It says BTO now.
I don't recall any BTO engines being advertised w/ whistle steam and not having it. Which one(s)?
I believe it was the turbine steam locomotive. My LHS charges a slight premium if I do not pre-order. Sometimes it's worth the risk.
Dan Padova posted:Way back in the day, wasn't there some issue with artwork in catalogs ? Lionel and others were depicting their trains is stylized settings, leaving some un-informed or unsuspecting catalog browsers (the human type) believing that what they saw in the catalog, was what they were going to get when they made the purchase.
I'm talking early seventies, if I recall correctly.
Well, that's not "way back in the day." 
Back in the day was the Postwar period and the wonderful and famous Postwar Lionel catalogs, which were all artwork. These drawings of the trains, in stylized settings, delighted viewers in the 50s and 60s, and are treasured today. It was part of the magic.
These days the talk is in terms of "uninformed or unsuspecting catalog browsers." Quite a change.
J Daddy posted:I believe it was the turbine steam locomotive. My LHS charges a slight premium if I do not pre-order. Sometimes it's worth the risk.
Nope. That was pre BTO. 2014 was the first BTO catalog.
TrainingDave posted:J Daddy posted:I believe it was the turbine steam locomotive. My LHS charges a slight premium if I do not pre-order. Sometimes it's worth the risk.
Nope. That was pre BTO. 2014 was the first BTO catalog.
Hmm then which locomotive was BTO and cataloged with whistle steam and arrived without?
Gentlemen,
I look at this in a different way, IMO this is false advertizing and nobody seems to care any more that the customer paying the bill is bing defrauded. When I purchase an item, the item I purchased should be delivered, not something similar to what I have paid for, especially if I have given money up front to have it made.
PCRR/Dave
Pine Creek Railroad posted:Gentlemen,
I look at this in a different way, IMO this is false advertizing and nobody seems to care any more that the customer paying the bill is bing defrauded. When I purchase an item, the item I purchased should be delivered, not something similar to what I have paid for, especially if I have given money up front to have it made.
PCRR/Dave
I tend to disagree, only in the fact that MTH and Lionel with refund your money if your not satisfied.
How about the prr u28c with the missing keystones and warning labels on the engineers side. How about a decade and 1/2 of incorrect dlge paint on scale prr diesels. How about missing Conrail logos on the GP's (speak to forum member middle division on that one.)
Do I need to state more examples?
Yes, it is frustrating, I join your pain. Steam Era cabooses with roller bearings. Steam Era box cars with modern doors and modern graphics.
And slap the Northern Pacific road name on a EM1 and call it a Yellowstone.
The latest was the NYC Heavy Mikado with the same whistle as the legacy k4....
I just have to remember they are toy manufacturers trying to sell products in a scale crowd.
PAUL ROMANO posted:Running both engines together looks terrible.
I think the visual discrepancy would bother me as well.
Tha Lima Demonstrator Berkshire was listed in the Catalog as having whistle smoke, but it didn't. That feature was one of the reasons that I ordered it. Although this was before BTO it was listed wrong and upset many people.
I can understand when you put your money on a catalog illustration, photograph, a potential buyer does not want to be surprised several months down the line, but there is always a "description, subject to change paragraph " in every catalog. Personally, if I see a potential purchase, I ask questions, and will only order if all my questions get answered to my satisfaction.
enjoy your trains...
breezinup posted:Dan Padova posted:Way back in the day, wasn't there some issue with artwork in catalogs ? Lionel and others were depicting their trains is stylized settings, leaving some un-informed or unsuspecting catalog browsers (the human type) believing that what they saw in the catalog, was what they were going to get when they made the purchase.
I'm talking early seventies, if I recall correctly.
Well, that's not "way back in the day."
These days the talk is in terms of "uninformed or unsuspecting catalog browsers." Quite a change.
I guess as far as my children as concerned, the seventies was back in the day. Now to my grandchildren, it was way back in the day.....LOL I had been playing with them when I wrote the post, so.......
My brother and I were among the kids of the fifties that experienced that magic. My father would come home with a Lionel catalog from John Wanamaker. We would lie in bed and go over which items we hoped to get. I'm still hoping.
It would be easier to Photoshop the old photo of the product on file than try to take a picture of the product currently.
D500 posted:To state the obvious, when complex products are planned/announced/previewed/actually stocked and delivered, and there is a long lead time, such discrepancies are absolutely inevitable.
But, if they waited to show the item in the catalogue as a photograph of the actual model, ready for sale, the other half of our little 3-rail party would moan about not having any lead time to "save up for it". And round and round we go.
Also but: I do agree that Lionel - more than the others? (others? how many of those are left?) does seem a little more casual about some of these specs and representations. I don't keep up as I seldom buy new, or at least current production, any more.
The Pacific Ocean does not help. As there is no other choice - nor can there ever be - we must suck it up. It's just a stripe, after all...
I don't think its so obvious or inevitable. Its really just the contractual relationship between the parties (control and penalties) and managing what is produced. The truth is, we want to buy everything as cheaply as possible and the manufacturers (importers, if you will) do what they can to fulfill our wishes. If that means "thin" management, so be it. The result is exactly what Paul is talking about.
Compare that with OGR, the magazine. You'll tell me a manufactured product is more complex, the distances are greater, yada, yada. But OGR does a GREAT job proofing the product. Believe me, it's not that easy. Think about the last time you saw a typo or big proofing error in the magazine. Once you've proofed and checked, you have a product. In terms of a diesel and the graphic representation, if Paul can proof and check, why can't the manufacturer?
A lot of people wouldn't be bothered with it and a lot of people wouldn't try to run the engines together. So for them it doesn't matter and the lower expenses from not keeping close tabs on things like this result in lower prices or higher profit for the manufacturers.
I very much agree with Paul. I am not as much of a purist as he is, but I find some of the representations in the catalogs to be so far off base that I have called the manufacturers to try to get answers to my questions. I can only tell you that IMO, that doesn't work too well. The result is that I prefer to buy after items are released and I can see them, and if I miss something that I would have otherwise purchased that's just the way it is.
Gerry
Well, that's not "way back in the day." Back in the day was the Postwar period and the wonderful and famous Postwar Lionel catalogs, which were all artwork. These drawings of the trains, in stylized settings, delighted viewers in the 50s and 60s, and are treasured today. It was part of the magic.
During the Postwar period, I'd bet that while fans most certainly enjoyed their catalogs, most purchases were made in person at the local Lionel dealer, and people saw what they were getting.
For me, Lionel's biggest catalog debacle was first reproduction of the 164 log loader. They used a genuine prewar/postwar 164 unit for the catalog illustration, and delivered something completely different. It was the last piece I ever pre-ordered.
Last year MTH got the Freedom Train Baggage car 100% wrong. Catalog the doors were white with the red and blue strip. It came with silver doors. That was a big surprise. When I asked MTH why they said they were painted silver so they looked like glass. What baggage car has glass doors??? They must think I am a nut or something to buy that one. If you don't like them take them back. They would not admit they were wrong. I painted the doors white. I can live with that but I should not have to. They should of been done right, They made these cars before and painted them correct. MTH should of done a recall and painted the door correct or at least sent correct doors to the ones that bought them.
I am with you, Paul. When I look at those tiny renderings from the companies you referenced, I have no idea what I am buying.
The thing I really dislike about the BTO program is that you either pay out or lay aside a lot of money for a product that may or may not be produced and may or may not be as advertised and accept that you may or may not get it as expected.
Seems like the buyer assumes all risk and the manufacturers have none based on the ever present legal disclaimers.
Case in point being the engine that delivered without the steam whistle. That would be a big selling point for me. If it came without it I would be very ticked. Clearly the manufacturers would know pre-production the steam whistle will not be delivered. At that point I feel they have a responsibility to inform the folks who pre-ordered about the changes and the customers should be allowed the option to cancel the order without any loss of down payment or loss to the dealers/LHS. Customers should not have to wait until actual delivery to find out what the manufacturers decide to deliver, especially at these prices. It is just not fair to the customer and the dealer/LHS.
Just my fairly worthless opinion.
Ed
Okay -
Pete
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J Daddy,
How nice of them to refund my money, when they supplied me with merchandise I did not even order in the 1st place. This thinking is exactly why these businesses get away with doing business in the manner they do. Not just in our Hobby but thru out the business world in general. I will give you another example, now the Gas and Light companies are permitted to estimate your bills for 3 months at a time, they over estimate by at least 65% and use your money to operate their company while drawing interest on your money, and the government allows them to do business in this manner. Then they dribble your money back to you a little at a time, then they estimate again and it starts all over. Frankly when I order a product and put a down payment on it and they supply me with something other than what I ordered, it's the same thing, they are using me as a bank. In reality they should be paying me interest on my money they tied up for maybe a year or so. Especially if its a $100.00 or more. Business operating in this manner, especially those having a lots of customers, make millions of dollars every year, using their customers money. There are many consumers who have no idea what is happening to them, as these under handed business practices take place, I am not one of those people. Yep and when the utility companies want me to read their meters for them, I tell them no problem, however I graduated from MIT, if I work for your company, my professional engineering rate is $266.00 an hr, with a 2 hr minimum. As a professional Engineer I have the right to bill them for my service. All of a sudden somebody is sent out to read my meter. It's the over all fraudulent business practices that now take place in some industries, that have become common place today, that need to be cleaned up. Our hobby with the BTO, is just one small example of this business money game. Unfortunately it's now a common business practice.
PCRR/Dave
Sparky74 posted:This is a recent one I can think of.
What about it? It has whistle steam.
Doug N posted:Tha Lima Demonstrator Berkshire was listed in the Catalog as having whistle smoke, but it didn't. That feature was one of the reasons that I ordered it. Although this was before BTO it was listed wrong and upset many people.
I just looked at the 2013 Sig catalog with this engine in it. I do not see anywhere where it states it was supposed to have whistle steam. Try again.
TrainingDave posted:Sparky74 posted:This is a recent one I can think of.
What about it? It has whistle steam.
Oh sorry. I meant the catalog picture depicts silver paint on the front end of the boiler. The actual unit is completely black.
RidgeRunner posted:PAUL ROMANO posted:rattler21 posted:Paul, could you please cite specific products that were disappointments? John
Yes. I purchased an MTH NS C40-8 PS3, cab #8306. In the catalog the white sill stripe appeared to be the correct width, matching my C40-8W. However, when I received it the sill stripe is almost a scale foot too wide extending up to the walkway. Running both engines together looks terrible. For the money, should I have to repaint it or live with it in disappointment? I'll never sell it for what I paid...........
And the opposite occurred with the $400+ MTH Premier Savannah & Atlanta SD70Ace Heritage where the stripe was clearly too narrow and did not match the prototype. The lettering also used a dull gold instead of the brighter Dulux Gold. To add to the frustration, the MTH HO version was correct. Arrrghhhh....
https://ogrforum.com/t...95#27897396906496895
<Breath in, let it go, breath in, relax...>
Bryan
I think the Railking version is correct as well. I purchased the premier one & was very disappointed based on the catalog pic. I was lucky enough to sell it after a few days for exactly what I paid for it, but they should have gotten that correct
C W Burfle posted:Lionel's biggest catalog debacle was first reproduction of the 164 log loader. They used a genuine prewar/postwar 164 unit for the catalog illustration, and delivered something completely different. It was the last piece I ever pre-ordered.
They got me on that one too. It was all plastic, didn't really look right and it didn't even sound right.
Jerry
TrainingDave posted:Sparky74 posted:This is a recent one I can think of.
What about it? It has whistle steam.
Look at that photo in the catalog and the real product, see the real difference?
Another example was the conventional classics reissue of the 2023 UP alcos. The catalog showed the engines as having the original type shell w/o the ribs on it & the wide UP lettering. The actual delivered one had the ribs on the shell & due to that it made the UP lettering look all squished. Charles Ro was nice enough to take the set back but I had to pay the shipping. If it was an correct catalog picture, I would not have ordered it
