Signal strength problems P2 v. P3

So far I like PS2!

Thanks Barry,

Ed

I ventured inside one of my Dash 9s. This would appear to be the coil we are discussing:



As you can see, there is little I could do to move the wires away from this coil. (I wonder if other boards are designed differently). There was not enough slack to move the wires, and I probably could not have moved them to the side in any event. The shell fits extremely tight. It was one of the most difficult removals I've done.Nonetheless, I cut the wire tie you see as well as another one farther forward. I've not yet experimented enough to know if this helps.

RM

This appears to be my problem as well.  Either the screws or the wire harness.  On one part (curve) on my layout, my PS3 will show anywhere between 1 and 7 depending on the exact location - mostly 1-3.  My PS2 engines give me 10's across the board.   I've done enough experimentation at this point that it's fairly obvious - should have searched for this earlier today.   Will contact my LHS Monday- it's MTH's problem at this point as far as I'm concerned.  

I think the fix the gentlemen prescribed above has indeed solved my signal problems.

First, despite perhaps a little skepticism that this would work with my particular engines (hinted at in the post above), I clipped the wire ties, reassembled the first engine and tried it in a consist ("lash up" in DCS-speak) with two PS 2 engines. All went well.

Second, today I ventured into a second Dash 9, and that perhaps provided me a little better perspective of the problem. In the image I posted above of the first engine, the wire bundle runs somewhat off to the side of the capacitors on the board, and I couldn't see how the wires could be moved away from the doughnut-shaped component at least not to any meaningful extent. But when I opened the second engine, I found the wire bundles running off toward the opposite side, ever so slightly closer to our little wire "doughnut." A subtle thing, but clearly this second model was different in how the wire bundle ran backwards around a metal component (a heat sink I think) toward the smoke unit and the rear truck. It occurred to me that just maybe this engine had been more of the signal-strength problem child, though because I always ran them together now I can't be sure.

In any event, I carefully moved the wires up and over the metal component to the opposite side. That didn't move them away from the "doughnut" by much, but a little. I reassembled the engine and programmed it into a consist with the other Dash 9 and with two PS2 engines. For good measure I purposely left a TMCC engine powered up on the same line about ten feet away. The four-engine consist programmed well and ran well with no balking or loss of control in the PS3 engines. So it looks as if this fix has solved the problem for me as well.

Again, many thanks for the advice. Odd how something so subtle can affect electronics' performance.

RM

One wonders how something like this escapes MTH and gets out in this quantity to the field...

It is a new systems and some of these quirks have to surface before they can be found and corrected.  Plus exactly how a wire bundle is constructed and routed is dependent on the worker in the factory.  I don't think any manufacturer is doing 100% QA are they? G

You probably could have left out the 100% and just said "I don't think any manufacturer is doing QA are they?"

Must admit I'm a little gunshy about buying more P3 engines since reading all the responses to my original post. I really don't want to worry about pulling apart any new P3 engine or adding $25-30 to the cost by having to ship it to MTH for warranty work.  Might try on of the new TIUs to see if the upgrade improves my situation.

Ed

Hard to imagine the TIU is going to correct a signal coupling issue inside the locomotive, but I guess anything's possible.

m afraid you're probably right. My engine's problem was the coating on the screws. Must admit that even after removing the coating, the signal strength is nowhere near as consistently good as the P3 engines. Except fo r no battery, I'm not sure any improvement of P3 over P2 is going to be noticed on my layout.

Ed

One would hope that MTH is hard at work correcting the issues with PS3.

I tell ya'..I've been in PS3 engines and I'm not impressed..not at all. Ferrite beads on motor leads, 30 wires crammed into a tiny plug 1" long x 5/8" wide & big huge tach reader with surface mount components..ugh!

Sorry but after being with DCS for 10 years I'm ditching it. If MTH would have listened and came up with a program for us to tailor sounds then I might have stayed with them but NO..let's run trains with a smart phone instead 

 amended.

ps2 engine went south!

Joe,

Is there any chance that the power is insufficient to support 9 or 10 engines pulling 88 cars? If there are power shortages, I've found that reception of the DCS signal for individual engines can be affected.

Interesting. I haven't been doing lashup because it seems that there are a lot of potential problems with them and I have enough trouble with the non lashups. A little disappointing to hear that you're having trouble even with the new TIU. I was hoping that might resolve some of my P3 issues when I do a little rewiring. I've got some real reservations about buying more P3 engines until I'm more comfortable about how they run on my layout. P2 engines run perfectly.

Ed

Barry, I have two Lionel 180w bricks powering the loop. The engines are spread out with cars so that each brick sees 5 engines. The smoke was off. As I parked the train back in their tracks things did get worse. Engines were just parked and not running. I can see there might be low power available in that instance (up to bricks cap?). Maybe I need more power!! The bricks can handle it. You're thinking when the power draw is high, the signal gets scetchy?

 I will hook up another (MTH1000) brick and try it again. May take some time to match the two brands and divide the layout. Wish I had more of the same bricks.

 A easier test would be to remove some engines then. I know which two would make it real easy!

Joe,

You're thinking when the power draw is high, the signal gets scetchy?

Something like that.

When I do a marathon battery charging for all 90+_ of my PS2 engines, I turn on a Z4000  handle set to 18 volts and charge a bunch of batterie at once. If I have more than about 10 or so engines, not started up, drawing power from one Z4K handle at once, I may get one of two things to happen:

• When I turn up power directly to 18 volts (using a Z4K Track), some engines come up in conventional mode
• Alternatively, some engine may later, all by itself, turn on in conventional mode.

 I just put the PS3 engine (with a newer PS2 AC6000) in the weakest area where it acted up. I did the signal test and it read Check track for a second and then got a #1. I pulled that other PS2 Dash 8 engine that was acting up and was parked nearby. The test reading jumped to a 8 and 9? There are several other PS2 engines in this block and many more all sitting on the layout quiet. It seems then that these two engines are fighting?

 The PS3 is a brand new CSX PRES dash scale. The PS2 is a brand new CSX DASH 8 that is slightly older? Why these two engines? All the other PS2 are getting along with the PS3? This frustrates the heck out of me. I'd better check the model of that dash and see what board's inside?

 I'm now focused on this PS2 engine more than the PS3 for causing trouble.

The PS3 engine is fine the second the ps2 is lifted off the tracks.

 Nope, there's just something going wrong with this one ps2 engine. It seems to be messing up. I bet there's a wire off or something that's causing eratic behavoir.

 I apologize for the linking of the two systems. When all h breaks loose, it's hard not to blame the new guy. I'm going to have to see what's going wrong with this engine. It ran great up til now.

I'm thinking I'm going to avoid PS/3 locomotives for a bit until this gets sorted out!

I agree wholeheartedly. I like engines but I'll stick with PS2 ones for now. It wouldn't surprise me if someone figures out that there are some real and consistent problems with the early PS3 engines. If that proves to be the case, a recall would be nice. Meanwhile my GP-38 sure looks nice running on the four foot section of test track.

Ed

I completely disagree.

I have a pair of PS3 engines, ALP-46 and GE EVO, with a third on order, a Swiss Crocodile. Both of the PS3's are among the best performers off all of my engines.

I plan to purchase only PS3 engines in the future, although I wouldn't pass up great deal on a PS2 engine.

Barry,

As usual I'm sure you're right. I'm just a little frustrated and must be venting a little as I look for answers from fellow Forum members. I'm going to go down cellar and scrape a little more blackpaint off those grounding screws. Then I'm going to tighten up the DCS blocks on the layout. Probably get a new TIU as from what I read it seems to put out a better or stronger signal and maybe PS 3 needs something in the new TIU to run most efficiently.

Ed

 Proto-3 3 engines in one???

Is it a good  3 rail engine... No, why do they use copper wipers to pick up the common on the outside rail? For a 3 rail engine that's just not right.

Is it a good 2 rail engine Maybe , how many run 2 rail DCS where the engine will only operate in one direction...

Is it a DCC engine? How many run DCC? Don't know.

I'm sticking with the early stuff . BTW. All my early strictly 3 rail engine are still operating just fine, haven't even lost a speaker. Can't say the same for my 2/3 rail engines.

I've paid close attention to this thread as I had been contemplating adding DCS to my layout for about a year.  I started off with a PS 3.0 Railking SD70 starter set in early November.  Ran great with the DCS remote commander.

Last week I added the full DCS system (Rev L. TIU) to my layout.  It is an elongated Lionel D-264 track plan.  I already had it wired using the star/home run method (little did I know), and I get solid 10's on both loops with my locomotive.  This is with power feeds every 12 to 15 track sections.  The only isolated section is a 1 3/8 section between the switches connecting the loops.

I plan on only purchasing PS 3.0 locomotives going forward.  I would be equally frustrated if I were experiencing some of the issues reported in this thread with any new locomotive purchase.  I can only hope that MTH will be addressing these problems with all future releases of PS 3.0 locomotives.  Best of luck to you in getting your issue sorted out.

Anthony

Gregg,

Is it a good  3 rail engine... No, why do they use copper wipers to pick up the common on the outside rail?

What are you talking about? Common on both of my PS3 engiens is picked up by the engine's wheels.

Is it a good 2 rail engine Maybe , how many run 2 rail DCS where the engine will only operate in one direction...

Again, what do you mean it "the engine will only operate in one direction"? All PS3 engines work just like PS2 engines, i.e., bi-directionally.

Is it a DCC engine?

Absolutely! It's a DCS, DCC and conventional engine that will operate on either AC or DC voltage.

Maybe someone can tell me if what I'm trying to do is possible where my mental block is. I'm working on the theory that my TIU variable 1 channel is not putting out a good enough signal to fully support PS3 Also, it seems  that, after much experimentation , half the mainline loop is taking power from the other half.

I have 2 main loops of about 120 feet each shaped in a "U" fashion. Each loop is controlled by one handle of a Z4000.The outer loop is TIU variable one and the inner loop TIU variable 2. There are some swithches connecting the 2 loops. Fiber pins in the switch center rails electrically separate the loops. The switches are powered by a Z1000 brick. There is a ground wire from the Z4000 ground to the switch Z1000 ground.

I would now like to divide the outer loop in half with  half the loop run by the Z4000 right side handle through TIU Variable 1 and the the half loop by a Z1000 brick( no controller) powering TIU fixed 1. I put fiber pins in the center rail of two pieces of track about 60 feet apart. I connected the Z1000 brick ground to the Z4000 ground. The brick and Z4000 are in phase. The variable 1 half ( Z4000)of the loop is wired to an MTH terminal block and the other Z1000 brick half is wired to a seprate terminal block in order to keep things isolated. When I turn on the power the Z1000 brick immediately shorts out. When I put fiber pins in all 3 rails, then the brick does not short out but the engine shorts when going over the track with the fiber pins.

I must be missing something and I just can't figure it out after rereading Barry's book and other wiring articles I have. There must be a way to use more than one power source without getting shorts.

Thanks,

Ed

Your power supplies are NOT is phase.

Thanks Gary. I just now came up from the train room and I think I figured it out. I think the transformers are in phase because I checked that carefully. My erroneous assumption is that ,at least on this Z1000 brick, the ground for the 14 volt accessory is not the same as for the regular(track) brick output. I don't know how the Z1000 bricks are wired internally, but when I switched the 14 volt accessory output ground going to the Z4000 to the track ground and ran that to the Z4000, everything ran fine. I have fiber pins in just the center rails and get a good PS2 7-10 signal on half the layout and 5-8 on the other half. PS3 signals are less everywhere but functional,at least 4, in most places. I'm going to go back and tighten up some blocks.  I'll put a fiber pin in each track section if I have to! Still looking forward to my new TIU with the hope that the signal strength will be even better.

Ed

 I keep reading about bad signal coming from the TIU. I thought that even was my problem last week. Each time it has happened, there was something wrong with voltage distribution or the likes causing signal woes.

 If it wasn't for needing the amps, one channels signal alone would do for most of our layouts. Signal absorption/deflection or whatever, from too much equipment, probably, also a factor?

 Wow, when I read this one still, I am amazed. Seen a bunch of anomolies. Not this one!

Thanks Joe. I had good voltage everywhere. I am thinking my problem has been more with the digital signal than the voltage.There are so many variables such as type of track(2 outside rails grounded by metal ties or just one grounded because of non metal ties), switches with fiber pins for the non derailing function, fiber pins forming blocks,different size layouts, magic light bulbs and other bulbs, etc. that I think each layout has it's own digital personality. I've found that discussing these problems and working toward a solution with input from the Forum members has been invaluable. Some guys are just so good at figuring these things out and it seems that someone eventually comes up with a solution.

I love this Forum!

Ed

My point is.... and this is just my opinion,, the new stuff is not as well made as the early engines.  I want an engine strictly made for 3 rail(rail king). I don't want any copper  wipers rubbing on the drivers of a steamer. Do the 2 rail engines not have to be placed on the track in a certain direction so they can pick up the dcs signal? As  for DCC...I don't think I need that capability as well, just something else to go astray.

3 in one   no thanks. 

 You know that you already have a lot of capabilities in the older ones for their time. AC or DC current. Conventional or command, etc. If it works, you shouldn't care what else it can do. Now, stalling on switches and the likes, should be covered when you throw the 3/2 switch. If not, they didn't get it right. Copper wipers have been around for a long time. The Atlas fans still buy their locos and they run great with their wipers. Maybe they need them on both wheels?

 If you don't run two rail, you need not worry about polarity issues. They aren't as big a deal as people make them, for me. I think they were an excuse. They are solved anyways w/ PS3.

Gregg,

Do the 2 rail engines not have to be placed on the track in a certain direction so they can pick up the dcs signal? As

PS3 Engines are not at all polarity sensitive to the DCS signal.

Wanted to follow up with some work I did in case some of the things I tried might help someone. If you don't have time to read further, the bottom line is that if you're going to run PS3 you might want to consider getting a REV L TIU.

I spent many, many hours with aligator clips and fiber pins trying to get a better PS2 and PS3 signals with my I3A TIU. The layout is basically a double mainline shaped as a "U" with about 125 feet of rack on the outer loop and a little less on the inner loop. There are a few connections with switches between the outer and inner loops. There is a yard off the inner loop. The switches are powered by a Z1000 brick and the two loops by a Z4000 through the Variable one channel for the outer loop and variable 2 for the inner loop. Track and switches are Kline Super Snap with the snaps cut off and replaced with pins. The TIU was updated by Barry and Marty at York about 18 months ago.

With that TIU I could finally get PS2 signal strength of 7-9 on the outer loop and 6-8 on the inner loop. PS3 signal was about 2-3. I tried pretty much every combination of short blocks, long blocks, no blocks, dividing the loops in half and powering each half with a different TIU channel, etc., etc. Finally Santa bought himself a REV L TIU. When I hooked it up and with a little tweeking, the signal with PS2 and PS3 is about 8-10 all over both loops.

A few things were very noticeable to me, at least on my layout. I think:

1. Everyone's layout will have a different digital personality. Actually I think each loop can be a little different.

2. PS2 and PS3 seem different in their interaction with the DCS signal. PS3 gave me a lot more trouble when running it on the pre Rev L TIU. PS3 ran so much better on the Rev L that I just was awestruck at the difference. All functions worked quickly and easily. PS2 and PS3 both run well on the Rev L pretty much with or without the magic light bulbs. I kept the TIU light bulbs connected because I had the sense thet PS2 signal was a little better with the bulbs. In isolated areas of a loop where the PS2 signal was a little weak, I just added a bulb in that area and the signal increased to 10.

3. Some switches in some areas seemed to degrade the DCS signal although I understand that this is not supposed to be the case.

4. Removing the black coating on the truck ground screws seemed to help, but I think my main problem was the layout and not the engine.

5. As time goes on and more PS3 engines are run on layouts with pre Rev L TIUs, it wouldn't surprise me that many peole will find getting a Rev L TIU will save them a lot of headaches.

I hope this saves someone the hours I wasted chasing my tail trying to get a better PS 3 signal strength when the answer seemed to be, at least on my layout,  installing a Rev L TIU.

Ed

In the cse of my PS3 PRR F3 set, it would appear that the cable routing inside the unit can have a rather severe effect on DCS signal.   My LHS worked with MTH directly and they provided him with a service bulletin that walked him through re-routing the cabling - not entirely unlike the poster above has related.  At this point my issues appear to have been solved.  I have no specific details, but there were other diesels that were affected by this.

I have a sneaky suspicion that switches in some layouts/configurations may also play a role, but that evidence is anecdotal for now.  

A picture of the original wire routing and the revised wire routing would probably be very useful here.