Smoke Fan Motor

Usually the smoke unit convert AC to DC via a little 5V regulator on the smoke unit PCB to power fan motor.  Some newer legacy have a smoke control board.

Also some times a motor will run off the battery but not the power supply.  The motor should read about 12 ohms.

Make sure all plugs fully seated.  Also some unit the fan only runs when the chuff switch closes to generate the puff with chuff.  Best to ask Lionel about your specific unit.  G

I'd contact Lionel if this is still a warranty item.

Reprogram the loco.  I see what George told you often.  I get to work on several of those AF locomotives and it is usually a bad motor.  most will work with a battery and die under the system.  The flyer system is a good unit.

Most of these earlier Flyer locomotives use an AC reg for the smoke unit.  Do you have power at the PCB with 18 volts on the track?  What is your engine number (product) and it will be easier to help you?

Marty lately it's always a good guess that the smoke unit motor is bad on recent Lionel stuff.  I wish they'd sort out the production and get some good motors!

Product number 6-48082

I use MTH smoke fan motors as replacements.

John, that is what I do also.  I have looked for a high end replacement with no luck.  I do that every few months.  I do a lot of smoke unit motors each month.  I have found smoke fan motors from PS-1 locomotives seem to be very hearty.   On all conversions, a drop of oil and they seem to last a long time. 

Thanks for the number OT7.  I will pull that up later tonight.

Was a bad fan motor.

John and Marty,

Is the MTH fan motor the exact same size as the Lionel one?

What is the part number of the MTH fan motor?

Thanks in advance,

Steve

The fan motor is the same size as some Lionel motors, but it is a bit longer than other motors.  So far, I haven't found anyplace that it won't fit, though it's fairly tight in the Northern, but I've put it in a couple of them.  The shaft is also shorter than some of the Lionel motors, but that hasn't been a problem either.

Oh, the part number is: BE-0000041.

Many thanks John!

Steve

The new MTH motors are the short ones.  No doubt MTH and Lionel buy from the same company.  The only smoke fan motors that seem to be very good are from PS-1 locomotives.  The current Lionel number is 610-8057-240.  The MTH number is BE-0000041.

I have the BE-0000041, the short motors in the Lionel stuff are still shorter.  I haven't had an issue fitting these in, but they are about 1/8" longer than the Lionel motors.

I just got some motors from MTH parts a couple of days ago, here's a comparison to the Lionel motor out of the last one I worked on, the Legacy K4.  It's the same size as the motor from the Northern.  Next to it is the BE-0000041 MTH motor.

John, Lionel has the same motor as the MTH in number 610-8057-220.  Lionel has another  newer motor.  It is # 610-1154-130.  This motor has diagonal screw holes.  If someone wanted to make a few bucks, a high end motor would be welcomed by all.

Some of the motors I've removed have diagonal screw holes, here are the last few that I still have.  I was pitching them, but I tested a couple of these on the bench for hours, and they seem to run fine and not draw any more current than other motors.

I'm curious what the failure mode is, perhaps they're generating excessive electrical noise and causing the error?  From all outward appearances and bench operation on a DC supply, they seem fine.  I did test a couple in the smoke unit before disassembly, and they weren't binding before removal either, they ran fine in the smoke unit.

I wonder if anyone at Lionel has analyzed the failures to know what is going on?

The motors fail after some use, sorting in production is moot.   We have sent failed motors back to the motor vendors for evaluation, mostly to determine why they get noisy.  We are watching the improvements we have made recently and are seeing much better fan motor operation & longevity.

Jon, is it electrical noise that is causing the errors?  I've got a bunch of these, and I've run them on the bench and they appear to work fine.  Proper current draw and they'll run for hours.  However, in the Legacy locomotive, they'll throw the error after a very short time.

Is it possible a small .1 to 1uf NP cap on the motor would be a solution, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Yes, it is electrical noise.  Same documented error that can occur on MTH PS-2 engines, especially those that have MUX boards.  Can cause flickering light (Not the mux board issue), random whistle or bell, and in worst case scenario blown audio amps.

At $6 best to replace a used one with new.  If it still run, you could use them in conventional smoke units such as PS-1 or TMCC.   I tried a cap on one and it didn't change the symptoms.   G

I think its just plain old noise. The one I replaced had a horrendous amount of vibration to go with it when compared to the replacement motor. When I held the defective motor in my fingers it just about rattled the fillings out of my mouth.

Being mounted to the shell rather than the chassis exacerbates the noise.

The replacement had almost no vibration. On the defective motor it seemed as though the shaft was moving in a bit of an orbital motion, like the bushings were defective, lubing had no effect.

I think with the noise comes extra power draw, and too much power shuts it down and flashes the code. I also noted the fan was breifly tested the instant the loco was powered up.

You don't realize this unless you power the loco with the smoke unit opened up. A power draw then throws the code immediately

Hi Jon, I believe that the motors have improved recently too. After a spate of failed units on new releases in 2011/2012 I haven't had a single failure from those released in 2013 onwards.

And I was getting pretty good at replacing motors too. 

RickO, 100% correct. 

Thank you for the info, I agree the problems are subsiding.  

I had to replace the fan motor on my Flyer challenger with only a few hours run time. The shaft bearing had gone elliptical and caused the armature to slow down quite a bit but not enought to stop entirely.

I have a theory and I can't prove it 100% but I think it may be connected to the smoke heating element set up. As the wadding hardens it inhibits enough fluid to reach the heating element to provide enough smoke. I then tend to add more fluid which I believe is at a level to partially cover the element and produces plenty of smoke but for a short period and then I top up again. In doing this I think I probably add too much and it overspills from the reservoir into the fan chamber. The fluid then drips down onto the top motor bearing and may flush out any oil it may have for lubricating and then you have excessive bearing wear. It may also be a case that the fluid also gets inside the motor and causes internal damage to the brush gear and creates failure here. This is all just my theory but it would be interesting for those that do lots of motor changes if they may think the same.

It may be the real problem lies in the heating area and not the motors themselves.

OK, so it's mechanical and not electrical. They seemed to run so well on the bench, I guess a better test was called for.  I don't see any excessive current draw, but maybe it only happens briefly at startup?

I haven't seen any 2013 units in with the bad fan motors, so I suspect Jon and Nicole are probably correct that the newer production has better motors.  That is certainly good news.

When will be able to buy motors from lionel again? 

Sorry, that is a question for the service department.  I will inquire next time I chat with the service folks. 

Ricko What is plain old noise?  Jon, I find it hard to believe mechanical noise is the issue, if so oil and return to service as John has done.  For the MTH unit, they can generate electrical noise.  Of course Lionel and MTH designs are different.  G

A loud rattling or buzzing noise, rather common occurrence with smoke unit fan motors. I've even had an MTH unit that made the noise.

Having said that prior to and except for recent legacy offerings a drop of oil on the shaft bearing cured and noise, every time, for good. 

Ukaflyers description of the bearing going elliptical sounds very fitting to my issue. The only thing is with mine, and I imagine many others smoke fluid had nothing to do with it. I tried oiling it and it lasted a week and quit altogether.

 It gets noisier and noisier, and requires more and more power to operate until it quits altogether. Jon hasn't disagreed so it appears Lionels "onboard diagnostics" monitors current draw from the fan as opposed to "electrical noise".

 When current draw is too high the smoke unit is shut down.

The majority of recent legacy smoke units have the fan mounted horizontally with a seperate housing for the impellar that is attached to the "bowl" via tubing.

With this design its almost impossible for fluid to get into the motor, it would run out the bottom of the fan housing long before it ever reached the motor.

This is quite different from the more "traditional style" Lionel or MTH smoke unit for that matter where the fan is mounted vertically in the bottom of an adjoining housing next to the bowl and fluid that overspills the bowl can run right down into the motor.

Here is the most perfect example of this issue, exactly what I had and eventually the fan quit, and I got the 3 blinks. (not my video)Oil would not fix it

Ricko, Thanks for the explanation.  Doesn't explain John being able to get them all running.

For the MTH I have changed, and it has been plenty.  Oil stops the squeal.  When they don't run they don't run period.  Then there are the small few that run fine and quiet, except they play havoc with lights, bell and whistle.  Of course MTH integrated design is much different for smoke.  In these cases it is electrical noise.

For PS-2 I would never risk trying to overhaul a fan.  New at $6 is worth the insurance.  PS-1 no problem.  I do think these are different units. Similar design, but I bet a different manufacturer for Lionel versus MTH.  G

The motors I have here removed from Lionel locomotives are as quiet as the new ones, even when installed in the smoke unit with the impeller.  It may be something mechanical, but I don't believe it's as simple as acoustically noisy motors in the cases I've seen.

I have seen noisy motors, I have a pair of them in my Legacy U-Boats, they are much louder than other smoke motors.  I plan on replacing them, but so far they haven't failed, and when the sound is on, I don't hear them.

The three motors I kept that are pictured above are very quiet in any orientation with an impeller mounted.

RixkO said that he has experineced similar bearing failure as I have done on my Flyer Challenger and I didn't mention in the earier post that I have had the same problem on the Flyer Big Boy, and they both have similar style smoke units where the reservoir and fan unit are co located next to each other in a verticle manner.

If I get this right, RickO couldn't see see the association of the smoke fluid being an issue as to being a motor problem, but I feel there possibly may be. The difficulty could be in these type of smoke units is how does anyone know if you are overfilling the reservoir? I know that we should only put in 'X' many drops but when the smoke tapers off then the temptation to add more fluid can kick in, and I am guilty of that perception.

If you put too much fluid into these side by side units,  then it can be easy to overfill and the excess fluid goes into the fan chamber. Depending on the state of the motor bearing it is possible that the smoke fluid can get into the motor and clog it up causing untold problems.

Is this a fair assumption or I have I got it totally wrong?

No you are spot on.  A smoke fan motor can fail in many ways though.  Over filling the smoke fluid is one.  It is easy for the fluid to leak out the bottom of the fan housing onto the top of the motor.  The bottom of the housing is not sealed, plus you can see the motor has and extra hole that is open.  I have seen plenty of drenched fan motors, and they don't run.

The other issue is it doesn't necessarily require and over flow.  I have loaded rebuilt MTH smoke units with the shell off.  You can see the fluid wick across the top of the PCB.  So it is not hard to get fluid over to the impeller port.  The gasket can also absorb and transfer fluid, especially in old units.  Sometimes the gasket swells and prevents the impeller from spinning. G

In my above post, I was refferring to the fact that the "majority" of O scale legacy smoke units have a horizontally mounted fan. This "newer design" makes it much more difficult for fluid to get into the motor.

Yes smoke fluid can certainly cause fan motor issues. That buzzing sound in the video above is the same sound I had in my smoke unit fan and was not caused by smoke fuid. IMO its some sort of bushing problem, failure incorrect tolerances whatever.

Any other smoke fan issues I have had over the modest 10 years I have been involved in this hobby whether TMCC, PS2 even "first run" legacy stuff were all fixed with a couple drops of oil, with the problem never recurring.

This recent legacy smoke unit is the only one oil did not fix, it continued to deteriorate and get louder until it quit.

Originally posted by JonZ:

"The motors fail after some use, sorting in production is moot.   We have sent failed motors back to the motor vendors for evaluation, mostly to determine why they get noisy." 

The odd part is that the motors I have here are very quiet, AAMOF, I can't detect any obvious flaw mechanically.  They don't have any noise in any orientation with the impeller mounted or in the smoke unit running.  They don't draw any more current than the working replacement in the same environment.

I'd love to know why they get flagged by Legacy as failures.

Lionel parts now show 610-1154-130 DC Motor in stock $7.50. 2/13/14

Part is  now unavailable.

Hi Guys,

OK, 3 blinking cab lights.  Replace smoke unit motor.  Now what?

Put everything back together of course.  Now does one do a factory reset?  Or some other type of command using the Cab2 remote?  If so, what exact commands are to be used?

Thanks in advance,

Steve

If the new motor is working OK, then you shouldn't get any flashing lights when you start the smoke up. (Fingers crossed.) No reset should be needed unless you had caused the smoke system to be shut down by too many resets when it was faulty. If this is the case, then resetting the locomotive ID should clear this.

From what I have observed, even after the smoke units goes into "shut down" it can still be reset by removing power for a few minutes.

The reason it continues to be "shut down" after repowering is that the loco "tests the fan briefly the instant the loco is powered. If theres still too much power draw it remains shutdown.

I observed this with the smoke unit apart but still plugged into the loco. Its a quick "zing" of the motor undetectible with the loco in its normal "fully assembled" state.

 The bottom line is,when you replace the defective motor the loco will do the test and it will operate as it should.

The "diagnostic code system" Lionel has gives one the impression that it must be reset by a dealer/ manufacturer or something, like an automobile. This is not the case.

No need for resetting or reprogramming, just get a fan motor in there that doesn't draw excessive power

BTW placement of the fan impeller is crucial on these newer units with the seperate plastic housing. Too close to the motor and it will rub, too far out and it will rub the outer part of the housing, and make a ton of noise.

Use something like an index card or two, to keep it just out away from the end of the motor without touching.