software issues??

I cannot ascertain if your comments are directed towards lashups or multi-train ops.  I run the latest version of software and have had as many as 8 trains moving at once with no problems other than keeping up with them, with another 15 or so powered on.  Tis includes having 3 or more running at the same time in the same power district.

Over the years, I have found that when ops deteriorate, something on the layout has happened, like a connection breaking, or rollers or track getting dirty.  You ought to be more specific as to the issue you encounter and the operator actions that lead up to it.

I would add an other question series:  What gauge wire do you use for feeds, both hot & common?  How many locos are pulling on a single feed?

Sorry RJR, I could spend the hour filling you in on all the specifics. I'm sure you'd have an opinion of what's wrong as I myself would. I have tons of equipment and I know how to troubleshoot as that was my job for years on tour. I should not have to do that every time I run trains unless something has failed.

Every time I run, there has been an issue. I can handle that. When the whole DCS system seems to forget where it left off software wise, and things keep deteriorating with no changes, I am beside myself.

 Even in the basement with perfect conditions, it appeared that DCS would seem to deteriorate with multiple sessions. I would build lashups, and they would work. The next time or two, they would act up as if the signal was not even making it to the rails. A brand new PS3 Conrail SD80MAC that ran great in the lead for a session, would not respond to any commands after a few sessions. Would start up missing the watch dog, and would just plain ignore stuff. On it's own, it would run fine? Build a new lashup, and it's fine?????

 I'm just plain getting tired of that. Is it a bug? Are others having issues? I don't care anymore. I may have to drop DCS and go with the computer program that Mark wrote as it seems much better at controlling things, and knowing what's on the rails. The more complicated or the more advanced DCS seems to get, the more it seems to forget. Maybe it's only happening at my house? Maybe it's a friggin' hacker again, that took out my computer and email?

Marty Fitzhenry tells me that there are certain accessories that have substantial adverse effect, and he specifically mentioned aero beacons.  You might want to see what happens with all accessories turned off, and power to all turnouts turned off, just to see what happens.  Do you have LED lighting on the layout, or other constant voltage power supplies?

Inside layout has no accessories connected to track power. I do have LED lighting. Two rail layout using Lionel 180w Bricks.

DC power to the rails outside G scale using Bridgewerks packs (30 amps). No other accessories on the outside layout. Last week some issues came up and I found the wiring problem and cured it, I thought. It then ran fine all last week. I go out today to build a large consist. I put the same three head end engines on the rails and one fires up. I restart the power and they all fire up and take off? None respond to any commands. (Maybe I should try going back to AC power?)

 I yanked two off the rails and ran one picking at random. All went well. Signal strength is tens? Track is clean.

I'm starting to suspect a TIU is breaking down? ( again? new one last year as I replaced an older version that had similar signal issues).

or

 The software is slowly losing memory of lashup settings? ( #1 on my list)

what that has to do with missing watchdog signals I have not figured out yet. It was happening in the basement and I quit inside running as the season changed.

Or

these trains hate me. (most likely answer)....

Computers always do he same thing the same way. There is no "degradation" over time of the software you are using. The program does not "wear out". If it was "bad" then everyone would have the same issues as you.

Since it seems to be affecting all your locos, you can probably eliminate them, except if they all are accumulating a lot of dirt on the wheels.

But it seems to be a signal issue, and DCS is very sensitive to noise "added" to the signal, and signal "degradation" by things that reduce or distort the signal.

It also makes sense, the things that can degrade over time are connections, wiring, something connected to the rails going bad. The physical items affected by temperature, moisture, vibration, etc.

So, you deduce it by putting your locos on a test oval and see if they work fine, and continue debugging from there.

Funny, your signature "Why go back to DCC when I have DCS!" may be telling you something, maybe you should reconsider?

Joe,

Do you have the problem loop wired in blocks?   If so, is it possible that the rails are touching again due to expansion?

There is also a lashup issue where all engines start up but only some move.

I also have some other suggestions but we can start here.

Dave

I'm sorry that I don't have any advice for you. I was of the same frame of mind (regarding MTH and DCS) when I lived in Florida. I would have to clean my Real Trax for every operating session. I stopped buying O gauge trains in 2002. I moved to NH and decided to try again, but this time with a bench layout and not a carpet layout. I have all the same equipment and everything is running great. The only conclusion I could come to was carpet layout and/or proximity to salt water, humidity and soot (from traffic). In NH, I first ran with really old DCS software without problems and then upgraded to 5.0 and still no problems. I have to agree with the previous post that it can't be a software issue.

Joe..i wish i had your engines to load and test on my carpet layout...actually hardwood floors. DCS 5 eng mu take me a couple of minutes to load and i would test the crap out of them. I hardly ever clean my track(ATLAS) if anything maybe wipe down a section because  2 rail engines get wheel slip.I pull long trains.I am still in 4.2 world though as like the reliability. It is important to me that member engines remember there settings and they do.Track signal usually 10 except switches 6/7. I am all ps2 3v and ps3.

 I have learned to put a piece of plastic in the rail clamps outside, so that when the sun heats the rails, they don't make contact with adjoining blocks. I also had to purchase expansion tracks for the longer runs to ease the pressure on the rails and clamps. A decent run of track can grow about an inch or so on a hot day. That may not sound much but remember it will shrink back at night.

When I trouble shoot I try and start fresh with an open mind to check and recheck everything. I've learned that nothing is a sure thing. I will find this issue's roots and fix it as I always have.

David Minarik posted:

Joe,

Do you have the problem loop wired in blocks?   If so, is it possible that the rails are touching again due to expansion?

There is also a lashup issue where all engines start up but only some move.

I also have some other suggestions but we can start here.

Dave

 

 What is this lashup issue in full detail?

What is the revision of the TIU?  If it's less than L, open the lid and inspect the nuts for the input terminals for tightness.

Moonman posted:

What is the revision of the TIU?  If it's less than L, open the lid and inspect the nuts for the input terminals for tightness.

yeap! They were loose on the brand new revision L too. But that was 1 of last year's issues. It did not cause a problem. More of a prevention.

Moonman, you've got it a little backwards.  The wires on Rev G's were soldered.  All later versions used nuts, which do get loose.  Although something like loctite is used, the application is useless.  My Rev H & Rev L both had nuts that I deemed loose.  I tightened them, added internal star washers, and another nut.  It's a metric size; I don't have the size handy.

It could be that you're doing nothing wrong & everything is fine but RF interference is affecting the remote to TIU communications esp. considering that your outdoors...try tethering and see if anything changes??

RJR posted:

Moonman, you've got it a little backwards.  The wires on Rev G's were soldered.  All later versions used nuts, which do get loose.  Although something like loctite is used, the application is useless.  My Rev H & Rev L both had nuts that I deemed loose.  I tightened them, added internal star washers, and another nut.  It's a metric size; I don't have the size handy.

Thanks, RJR. Just generically thinking of anything that would corrupt signal or stored configurations.

That is interesting. I never contemplated that. I don't believe that's occurring here. The engines act up on power up. So normally I would think it's a signal issue. The signal seems strong when tested?

I guess the remote com interference idea could cause erratic behavior. I will try a tether. I thought using a computer program might help verify where the issue is stemming from.

I like Casey's thought of tethering. It would eliminate signal interference from the remote to the TIU.

Perhaps the loose transceiver board issue in the remote?

Joe, it is possible that your tracks may be picking up "signals" from other sources, either induced or applied  Here's a few ideas:

1. Do you or a neighbor have an underground dog fence?

2. Is your layout near high voltage lines?

3. Does your layout cross underground power or cable lines feeding your house?

4. Have your checked your house grounding connections?  Assuming you have an outdoor 8' ground rod, is it galvanized or copper.  If galvanized and it's over 12 years old, it should be replaced.  If copper, life is about 40 years.  Is the conductor between house and ground rod making good connection?  (This relates to safety as well as train.)

5. An outdoor layout is subject to many hazards, such as spider webs and wet (conductive) ties.  If you have no trains on the tracks and apply, say, 20 volts, is there any current flowing?

RJR posted:

Joe, it is possible that your tracks may be picking up "signals" from other sources, either induced or applied  Here's a few ideas:

1. Do you or a neighbor have an underground dog fence?

not that I know of

2. Is your layout near high voltage lines?

no

3. Does your layout cross underground power or cable lines feeding your house?

my shed's 30 amp line in one spot

4. Have your checked your house grounding connections?  Assuming you have an outdoor 8' ground rod, is it galvanized or copper.  If galvanized and it's over 12 years old, it should be replaced.  If copper, life is about 40 years.  Is the conductor between house and ground rod making good connection?  (This relates to safety as well as train.)

It's copper and only a few years old. I had the house upgraded to a large amp panel.

5. An outdoor layout is subject to many hazards, such as spider webs and wet (conductive) ties.  If you have no trains on the tracks and apply, say, 20 volts, is there any current flowing?

I don't see current. It has been so dry this year, I'd call it a drought. Again, I had set the ties in a concrete ballast mix and thought of the same idea. So I yanked them all out and it made no difference. Now I still have to fix all that too.

 I made some wiring changes and saw immediate results. Engines were all acting up and signal was lower. Now it's all tens. Lasted one week? I can't verify it was tens when the engines took off this time. Maybe something is failing? I swear it's the program. So I need to swap control programs. We had a death in the family and trains had to go on hold. I tried to run them to forget, and they bit me in the ***!

None of that would explain why it happened in the house too? (well maybe a ground issue might?) I really think it's something else but I like to keep searching. Must be some variable I'm missing.

 

I'm out of ideas.

I got a little time and some patience to start looking at things. The grandson was here and wanted to run trains. 

  I placed a Triplex on the rails and things were strange with that. I was using my phone to run and in certain areas of the layout the engine would not respond or the horn would get stuck for example. Finally I had stopped the engine to add cars and the system couldn't talk to the engine? I pressed the refresh arrow and the system put the engine into inactive? I slid the engine forward on the rails to a new block as I could not get the system to pull the engine back up. Finally I grabbed a remote and unplugged the wifi. For the first time ( I had tried this before unsuccessfully), the remote found the engine at first attempt and ran it correctly. The engine now responded correctly everywhere on the layout. WTH??

 I put the three unit lashup on the rails. I got all kinds of issues? I was trying to run them and noticed there wasn't much response. Finally the system (remote) seemed to crash (stop responding). I was investigating why and noticed the lead units wheels were turning backwards on the front truck while the rear truck was not even turning? The 2 trailing engines were pushing it forward and the remote couldn't get any response.

 I just put the lead unit on the bench with straight DC and it ran correctly. It seems like the batteries are weak as there was not much shut down sounds. I will test that unit further. I'm wondering if there was some kind of lashup communication trouble that caused it? The two trailing units responded to direction commands and speed changes but the lead did not.

 There maybe several things happening all at once here? I still have a feeling that there's some issue with the newest DCS version. I will find out what's wrong. Very frustrating.

I don't need negative comments from some guy who always bashes me. Please go away.

Joe, by any chance do any units in the lashup have a cv board?

I solved battery issues by converting all ps2s to supercaps

Stupid question but are you always using the same TIU outdoors?

Sounds like your WiFi Module is timing out it's connection maybe via your router settings. 

RJR, All 3 were MTH diesels. No CV boards.

I'm not the best at the Wifi yet Casey, but it was communicating with the TIU. I had to turn off the phone's router thing, and just have the MTH wifi connected. Maybe something there though. The remote was used and the wifi was unplugged when the lashup acted up.

I just re-checked track signal again and it's all tens with 1 MTH G scale diesel on the rails. The 1 engine responds perfectly to the remote. Maybe I'm chasing several issues again?

Joe I had a pre-DCS MTH diesel, that had a cv board in it, that gave a problem after I converted it to PS2.

A lashup draws a good bit of power.  What gauge wire is used to the hot and for the ground?

14 Gauge wire to each of four blocks that make up each main loop.

I ran one engine the rest of today with no issues. Track signal remained tens.

I put another lashup on the track of 2 MTH NS diesels. A new thing occurred. The train was running say 40MPH with the grandson holding the remote. He kept sounding the horn and twice the train stopped for no reason. I looked at the remote and it still said the train was doing 40MPH? Each time the train responded to the remote and started going again. So I could not establish what had happened.

I think there must be some interference thing as Casey suggested. I just think it's in the software? Stuff happens with the remote or the Wifi?

I will keep searching. Something is going south. Fast. When it breaks, it will solve my searching. Maybe something with higher amp draws? I started looking closer at the wires for any signs of animals chewing or similar. Maybe the new TIU is going?

I should have tried more but as single engines ran fine, I was happy!

I think I need to try the computer to see if it's a control or interference issue. That may help point to, or away from the TIU.

Joe,

I'm assuming that there are 3 things that make your setup different from most others:

• It's 2-rail
• It's DC rather than AC voltage
• It's #1 Gauge, which has bigger amp draw than O gauge, particularly when operating lashups.

If any or all of the above are correct, then the problem is more than likely f=due to some combination of those factors.

Unless one of the above is affecting DCS operations in an as yet undocumented way, I'd be extremely surprised if the DCS software itself is the culprit. My money is on one of the above as at least being a contributor to your operational issues.

Joe, straining at gnats:  does it act up with wifi turned off and remote tethered to tiu?

It ran so good today with the remote, that I forgot to tether it. Our grandson got bored with the Triplex so a lash up was needed to pull the same train. I will resume testing tomorrow. No engines missed the watch dog signal today with nothing changed. So it's hard to chase the issues with them changing.

I messed up when I did not tether.

The amp draw is surprisingly low. It's not much higher than O scale is. It can go up with heavy trains and the motors in other brands. I think the smoke units may draw a little more? The voltage is set higher and that helps the engines draw less amps.

Joe,

It ran so good today with the remote, that I forgot to tether it.

In that case, you can rule out DCS software as the issue. Software doesn't fail intermittently.

The remaining potential culprits are:

• The tracks and wiring
• The environment
• Operator error
• Individual engines
• TIU hardware.

Joe, I once had a neighbor who would watch TV in his ground floor rec room.  Occasionally his TV would switch channels over to a televangelist (who later went to jail).   By any chance do you have a neighbor who uses DCS?  Outside interference, intneitonal or otherwise, is a real possibility, especially when intermittent.

Thanks. The reason I feel it's the software still, is only lashups act up. There are probably two or more issues that have my head spinning. I will find them all. I will rule out each methodically. It's just odd to me that single engines run without issue. I said above that everything ran well today (yesterday). That was until I tried more than one engine.

 Artpark and the Niagara River especially is very close by. Helicopters and boats use all kinds of wireless equipment. I would have to bet that there's at least some interference. Why on only lashups being just coincidence, is a wild thought to me.

 I could easily switch to AC power. I wanted to do that anyways. I was waiting until issues were ironed out so I did not add any more variables. I still don't get why one day all engines don't see the watchdog signal and take off. The next day everything is fine? The known variable between those days was more than one engine was on the track. The unknown is what I maybe looking past.

Joe

You mentioned batteries. Have you verified that the batteries in all the MU engines are good?

No. I did notice that the lead unit that did not respond seemed to have short shutdown sounds. The heat kills batteries I believe. I may have to switch to all BCRs if I can prove an issue there. The offending engine is only 2 years old + what ever time it sat on dealer's shelves. It would be funny that others are near ten years old with original batteries in some.

 I do know from experience that battery age means nothing.

If you know how to navigate to the "battery check" function in DCS, you'll know if the battery is good in less than a minute. Off the top of my head, I don't remember the steps.

I thought that only showed the battery circuit is working? I need to test them under load. These are AA type in G scale.

I wonder if a lead unit in a lashup with dead batteries missing the watchdog, could cause trailing units to act up as well?

I have used the battery test function. I've seen a locomotive returned to the track from storage show a bad battery, but after time on the track it will read Okay. I'm sure that this function tests the actual battery.

OK riddle me this one!

I put the troubled lead engine on the track this morning. I pressed menu, advanced, info, and picked the engine. It read out like it should the info and battery Hi which I believe means it's charging.

 I then try and check track signal with that engine. Instead it keeps reading out all the info???? That sure seems like a software glitch to me. Maybe this remote is failing, because it has had a rough life.

 The engine performed perfectly on it's own by the way. It accepted speed, direction and horn commands perfectly everywhere on the loop.

There are 3 possible readings for the battery; LO, OK, HI. According to 3rd addition DCS companion, HI means the battery is fully charged and no longer charging. However, I think a bad battery could read Hi. Sorry, I don't have any idea about the operation failure you experienced.

Keith, I think you are right, because I believe the system reads the voltage of the battery. You can have a bad battery that will "charge" to full voltage, but not have the discharge capacity it should.

Greg