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Here are amazing photos from the San Bernardino Sun. Much of Cajon Pass and environs are either threatened or burning now.
I was wondering if the Engineer would be reprimanded for operating his train in such hazardous conditions.
Clarence Siman posted:I was wondering if the Engineer would be reprimanded for operating his train in such hazardous conditions.
What????? If he stopped, how would he and his Conductor escape?
I assumed he operated his train into an area that was already on fire. If the fire came up on him that would be different. I am only basing my comment on the photo.
As soon as I heard the location on the news of the fire as "Blue Cut" I knew the U.P. and BNSF would be affected. Terrible situation. No rain in the West and Gulf states under water.
You can't be sure from the photos how far the fire was from the track. If phote taken from a distance with telephoto-type lens, the perspective would be deceiving.
Clarence Siman posted:I assumed he operated his train into an area that was already on fire.
Probably NOT a good idea to "assume" something about that specific area of California and the potential for massive fires with VERY high winds.
If the fire came up on him that would be different. I am only basing my comment on the photo.
They are running trains on 1 of the 4 tracks now. The Palmdale cutoff is out of service as the bridge was destroyed and there is a crane up there now removing it.
The dispatcher had no idea where the fire was or how fast it was moving in which direction. Just like the fire fighters. The trains were moved out of there as soon as it was possible. Trains are parked everywhere, yards are plugged, every siding in Southen California has a train or cars in it. Its a mess and just started to move. It's gonna be a long process!
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I realize this is a train forum, but lets not forget the 82,000 folks who needed to evacuate their homes with almost 300 known structures burned at this point. They, and especially the fire fighters battling this fast moving fire, need our prayers.
I had several friends/co-workers evacuated from their homes in the high desert, sitting, waiting for over 24 hours not knowing whether they had a home to go to. Several of them stuck on I-15 trying to get home or back to the terminal to get their vehicle. On duty for 19+ hours because they were stuck in a van with no food or water. Yes Ron, it was and still is an absolute nightmare for thousands of people.
Ace posted:Shouldn't the railroads have fire-fighting trains to protect their infrastructure? Not the first time this area has had wildfires.
I don't know about you but, I sure wouldn't go up Cajon Pass with a firefighting train, the way the wind blows and quickly changes directions. The professional Firefights on the ground are already having serious problems, according to the news reports.
I wouldn't go anywhere near that area when the fires get going. I sat on a train during the last big fire they had. Stopped east bound, right at Cajon, with nothing but smoke around us when flames came out of nowhere and crossed the tracks a couple hundred feet in front of us. Luckily everything near us had already burned so there was no fuel. A fire fighting train would end up as part of the destroyed stats, along with the crew. Just get out of the way, and repair/replace it afterwards.
Laidoffsick posted:I wouldn't go anywhere near that area when the fires get going. I sat on a train during the last big fire they had. Stopped east bound, right at Cajon, with nothing but smoke around us when flames came out of nowhere and crossed the tracks a couple hundred feet in front of us. Luckily everything near us had already burned so there was no fuel. A fire fighting train would end up as part of the destroyed stats, along with the crew. Just get out of the way, and repair/replace it afterwards.
You've got that right. That area is a bowl with no way out if everything goes up at once.
LA County has agency reps at the San Bernardino EOC just in case this fire runs past Wrightwood into LA County. So far it looks like the spread rate has been reduced. According to this morning's briefing, some rail traffic is allowed through restricted to 20 MPH (I didn't think they ran much, if any, faster than that anyway). I-15 North is open; I-15 South is expected to open later this afternoon.
Ace posted:
A fire-fighting train has limited range, maybe good for small brush fires along the right-of-way, but not a monster fire like the current Cajon fire.
Leave it to the air tankers that can get where the fire is, get in, get out, reload quickly and return as needed.
Rusty
Back in time, long, long ago, before human beings lived in the area like they do now, there were fires in the pass. But my guess is they were more frequent, hence they were less intense. Nature's way of a "controlled burn".
Rusty Traque posted:Shouldn't the railroads have fire-fighting trains to protect their infrastructure? Not the first time this area has had wildfires.
A fire-fighting train has limited range, maybe good for small brush fires along the right-of-way, but not a monster fire like the current Cajon fire.
Leave it to the air tankers that can get where the fire is, get in, get out, reload quickly and return as needed.
Rusty
Seems to me that a fire-fighting train with a string of 30,000 gallon tank cars of water/retardant would have some chance of protecting itself and railroad property. A rail line might be a logical pathway to create a firebreak, with the ability to bring in large quantities of water and retardant. Give the crew sealed cabs with auxiliary oxygen supplies and they can retreat into a tunnel if necessary.
A fire train doesn't necessarily battle a fire directly; it can put down retardant around key infrastructure before a fire arrives.
The largest DC-10 air tankers carry up to 12,000 gallons per flight and there are only three of those in service. More typical air tankers carry a fraction of that. Air tankers are a high-risk operation flying through hills and smoke, and they are limited in what they can accomplish against large-scale fires.
In Cajon Pass area there is is very little on the railroad to burn. The ties are concrete, the poles are gone, there are no fences, most of the bridges are steel and concrete. With reasonable vegetation control there should be little fire risk to the railroad facility. The risk to train operation is heat, poor visibility due to smoke, and a lack of breathable air. Best thing to do is stay out of the way and let the professional fire fighters do their job.
In the one photo with all the flames coming up behind the train, I think the photo misrepresented the real situation. I think the picture was taken from Cajon Blvd. at CP Cajon looking west. That train was probably stopped at a red signal. At that point beyond the tracks is a large clear area used by M of W. During the addition of the third track there were trailers and lots of material in there, but recently it has been empty except for a few concrete ties. West of that is the Cajon wash, which has water in it most of the years. Along the bank is (was) a large thick stand of short trees. I believe the flames in the photo are these trees burning, which are probably 300 feet from the track.
I was surprised to learn that the steel UP (SP) bridge that burned had a wooden deck under the ballast and concrete ties. That track was built in the late 1960s. Wood does last a long time in that climate. Fire is about its only risk. Recently I was at the Bristle Cone Pine preserve just north of Death Valley, about 100 miles north east of Cajon Pass. There was one dead tree there with a sign explaining that the tree was about 4500 years old when it dies and fell over in 1670. It has been laying there ever since.
David Johnston posted:In Cajon Pass area there is is very little on the railroad to burn ...
I was surprised to learn that the steel UP (SP) bridge that burned had a wooden deck under the ballast and concrete ties. That track was built in the late 1960s. Wood does last a long time in that climate. Fire is about its only risk ...
Yeah time for an upgrade here ...
... but an intense fire can still compromise unprotected all-steel and concrete structures.
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"... but an intense fire can still compromise unprotected all-steel and concrete structures."
That is why a reasonable amount of vegetation control is needed every year. I recall Santa Fe, in Southern California, used motor graders every year to scrape the right of way down to bare earth in the late spring. Also these dessert fires go through quickly. There is not sustained heat. There is just not that much to burn in most places.
